Multiple Maps and Mapscripts

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Alternately a concerted effort at getting the start in X era working and then balanced may be a way to go also. That means we need to look at all buildings and decide two things

at which tech do buildings become free to new cities. This would replace the python code we currently have for the advanced settlers. A good thing in my view.

what buildings are free at an era start. This would include National and pseudo national wonders like myths.​

IIRC there is a minor bug in the free at tech to new cities which does not check for vicinity and other prereq requirements but that wont get addressed until we get some free at tech buildings out there.

We have a thread for this here.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well, that makes sense. Unfortunately I can't help with an answer to get around that catch 22 situation yet.

Perhaps, if your finding yourself at a juncture where you're not sure what to work on 'next', it would be good for you to post a list of the goals you have in mind for yourself and we can all take a look at them and consider how they could be timed into development to best harmonize into the current design strategies we are each striving for independently? Not to say I think we should 'tell you what to do' by any means... just that it may be helpful to get feedback from the team on the various projects you have on your list. I'm trying to do this more myself.

Well as you guys do your projects I do chnage my task order to harmonize with any project that is being worked on. For instance if you went and worked on the disease stuff I would then focus my efforts on that. Or when people need icon/buttons I help out that way. But I think we all do this to some extent. I mean we are a team after all. Working together helps the project as a whole. Infact I recall you helping me out when I needed help with the metal ore stuff. Which was done because DH requested that I finally redo the metal resources.

AIAndy made a good point in the other thread, until we have a reliable way of getting to the Transhuman and Galactic Eras those eras will remain mostly unplayable and little to no Multi-Maps progress will be made. Part of this I suspect is due to how long turns take in the later game, which will be helped by aggressive multi-threading, but part of it is also that things change so often that is hard to keep up a game for 4 months (even for a dev like me). So I'd have to agree adding content there for now is not the best priority, the first priority should be making it easier to get to later eras (and have the AI be still competitive then). That has been a real problem for C2C for a very long time, and I'd like to look at that first before moving to TH and Galactic Era stuff.

What do you mean "reliable" because I have been to the Galactic Era before. It took a LONG time on snail but I got there. And with the viewports I can get there without having to resort to small maps.

 

[ls612]

What do you mean "reliable" because I have been to the Galactic Era before. It took a LONG time on snail but I got there. And with the viewports I can get there without having to resort to small maps.

Well, that was a very long time ago. I've yet to see anyone show me a save that is in the modern or later era on a modern version of C2C. And with larger maps turn times by then would be awful. And at any rate if one person out of the 5000 or so who play C2C gets to the TH era that isn't really 'reliable'.

 

[Snofru1]

I've yet to see anyone show me a save that is in the modern or later era on a modern version of C2C.

I could. I am in modern in my current game currently researching Guided Weapons and I nearly always play until the Galactic Era (though it could be more fun). And I have pointed out some errors in the bug thread the last months including saves. I even pointed out a number of times that I couldn´t finish a game as the income increased so crazily (probably because of a bug) that the game couldn´t cope with it. That was in Galactic Age.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That's a point too. More int conversions will be necessary to fully support the later eras...

 

[ls612]

I could. I am in modern in my current game currently researching Guided Weapons and I nearly always play until the Galactic Era (though it could be more fun). And I have pointed out some errors in the bug thread the last months including saves. I even pointed out a number of times that I couldn´t finish a game as the income increased so crazily (probably because of a bug) that the game couldn´t cope with it. That was in Galactic Age.

Please post that save (with the misbehaving gold) if you still have it, that sounds like something that might be addressable during the Freeze.

 

[Hydromancerx]

We also have to take in account that off world colonies and future units will have UBER maintenance costs.

EDIT: In fact it might be useful to put in some place holder buildings. Ones that would eventually go in on other planets but could be done just as Earth based buildings for now such as ....

Lunar Colony [National Wonder] -> Various Lunar Buildings

It would at least allow us to test some late game economics and buildings before the multimaps are put in place. And once they are we can just adjust the building requirements and/or remove any place holders.

 

[Snofru1]

I could. I am in modern in my current game currently researching Guided Weapons and I nearly always play until the Galactic Era (though it could be more fun). And I have pointed out some errors in the bug thread the last months including saves. I even pointed out a number of times that I couldn´t finish a game as the income increased so crazily (probably because of a bug) that the game couldn´t cope with it. That was in Galactic Age.

Please post that save (with the misbehaving gold) if you still have it, that sounds like something that might be addressable during the Freeze.

I found those old saves (here in the forum) and tried to load them with the current SVN but that failed, I had a CTD even before C2C was fully loaded. I guess these saves were simply too old, too much has changed since then (early January). I now will proceed with my current game and see if I observe something like this and post it in the bugs thread. Could be too late for the Freeze, though...

 

[ls612]

I found those old saves (here in the forum) and tried to load them with the current SVN but that failed, I had a CTD even before C2C was fully loaded. I guess these saves were simply too old, too much has changed since then (early January). I now will proceed with my current game and see if I observe something like this and post it in the bugs thread. Could be too late for the Freeze, though...

What? That should not be happening, Max Compat saves are designed to be resilent to that. Please post the save in the bugs/crashes thread.

 

[Thunderbrd]

On occasion after a change I still have to now and then delete the Cache file. Usually clears things up when the crash is taking place on modload.

 

[ls612]

On occasion after a change I still have to now and then delete the Cache file. Usually clears things up when the crash is taking place on modload.

He said it is crashing on trying to load a save. That certainly should not be happening, all saves are supposed to be backwards-compatable.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I had a CTD even before C2C was fully loaded.

I presume he was trying to open C2C directly from a double click on a save file.

 

[rightfuture]

Well as you guys do your projects I do chnage my task order to harmonize with any project that is being worked on. For instance if you went and worked on the disease stuff I would then focus my efforts on that. Or when people need icon/buttons I help out that way. But I think we all do this to some extent. I mean we are a team after all. Working together helps the project as a whole. Infact I recall you helping me out when I needed help with the metal ore stuff. Which was done because DH requested that I finally redo the metal resources.

What do you mean "reliable" because I have been to the Galactic Era before. It took a LONG time on snail but I got there. And with the viewports I can get there without having to resort to small maps.

Hydromancerx
I know that I'm just starting to participate a little more, but I've mentioned this idea several times and I think it would solve a lot of problems.

Optional Era Selection:

I think the best thing you could do for playtesting, and increasing player/modder access to other eras, is make it a priority to build in a Choose Starting Era option to C2C.

Eventually I also think you should be able to optionally select eras(including alternate ones) and adjust their possibility (dark age/alien invasion/post-apocalyptic) of launching. I would love to be able to control a dark age/apocalypse/ disaster in-game as well as in start options, and it's probability of triggering as well. It would also be nice to be able to adjust the timing of eras in-game as you play - game/research speed as an adjustable slider.

If you could start in the Trans-human or Galactic Eras directly, then you are alot more likely to comment on, or be able to quickly playtest them. It's all about accessibility.
If you can get to those eras easier, then you have more reason to start working on them. (might also get C2C a lot more players, those who prefer to skip the prehistoric, but want to help with the others.)

I think that even though I love them, that the Prehistoric and Future Eras, as well the Alternate potential ones, should be as selectable and controllable as possible, so that people can experience C2C easier.


And another idea.
You could even set up default (recommended) configurations of starting game play.
1. New Player (tutorial) - difficulty easy - map Standard Earth, etc. Prehistoric starting Era, normal historical path.
2. Explorer mode (random generation) - GeoRealism Map generation, most interesting and new features. Most recommended different (non-vanilla) experience to see features.
3. Max Historical (fixed path tech-tree) -Standard or GEM earth map, most probable future tech tree / options. Most like basic Civ Experience + C2C enhancements. Most common experience.
4. Max Settings (unpredictable time frames, random alternate era selection) GEM or GeoRealism random map, maxed out options for maxed out computers. Playing C2C to it's best limits/possibilities. Max default experience for those who want to push the limits.
5. Playtesting mode (Enables new features and individual modules as selectable) - for playtesters and modders to change features and reset features on the fly. Eras/features could be accessed, sped up, slowed down, removed, and added on the fly for playtesting.

This could make multi-maps more accessible.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

Well, that was a very long time ago. I've yet to see anyone show me a save that is in the modern or later era on a modern version of C2C. And with larger maps turn times by then would be awful. And at any rate if one person out of the 5000 or so who play C2C gets to the TH era that isn't really 'reliable'.

I could provide a save 4 techs away from modern on a build from about a month ago. It doesn't take that long to get there even on Eons, took me two or three days of playing. The game does kinda break down at late Industrial though, since mechanics like pollution and crime are poorly balanced at that stage, and buildings/techs have so many interdependencies that keeping track of them becomes a chore.

 

[Snofru1]

I presume he was trying to open C2C directly from a double click on a save file.

That´s true. I pressed the shift key though when I tried to load and it didn´t work either. Strangely enough I also had problems loading other savegames after that. I´ll look closer into this and keep you informed (in the Bugs thread).

 

[ls612]

I could provide a save 4 techs away from modern on a build from about a month ago. It doesn't take that long to get there even on Eons, took me two or three days of playing. The game does kinda break down at late Industrial though, since mechanics like pollution and crime are poorly balanced at that stage, and buildings/techs have so many interdependencies that keeping track of them becomes a chore.

Well, I'm glad to know that there are people (albeit a few) getting that far. After we release V29 I'll create a thread for those who are in the Modern or TH eras (after things start to get wacky) to discuss that and we can work on balancing things that late.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Optional Era Selection:

I think the best thing you could do for playtesting, and increasing player/modder access to other eras, is make it a priority to build in a Choose Starting Era option to C2C.

This comes standard with Civ IV. What wee need to do is

1. Identify which buildings should be free in all cities for each era start.
2. Figure out how many cities (and their population) a nation should get at the start of the game.
3. Figure out what units they should start with, how many and where they should be placed.
4. Figure out what improvements should be done at start.

The code for this already exists, as far as I know most is modable in the XML. We just need to spend some time on it. Just like we did for when we did the building and unit costs.

One problem is that some people insist that things be done their way eg no buildings with any drawbacks. Personally I feel we should just say "tough if you don't want to play the early eras you just have to put up with the 'bad' decisions of your predecessors".

 

[Faustmouse]

To get an idea on how many cities, pop, improvements etc you should get we should have a thread where people post those stats. Would also very got to get an idea to scale the cultural heritage missions.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think this is the right thread to talk about Multi-Maps.

I was talking to TB the other day about them and he said that Koshling left documentation on multi-maps. That he could figure out how to do soem of it but some other parts were beyond him. I know Koshling doesn't want to work on it anymore but he is still around for the multiplayer games. Perhaps he could still show us the right direction to go so multi-maps can be a real thing.

For those that don't have any idea what I am talking about, multi-maps are how they sound. They allow for a separate map to be made in the same game. This is different from the many maps in one map that some map designs like 3 planets have made. The big issue with multi-maps is getting units to go from one map to the other.

However if this can made accomplished it means you could use say an Earth map with all the correct animal spawning. The take your rocket to the moon on a completely separate moon map.

Note on the exact nature of how we want to to be done has been discussed before. Such as having a solar system "over world" map that had single tile locations for all the planets in the solar system. Then when you get your spaceship into space you can travel to another planet on the map. Then once you arrive at the tile then your ship disappears and loads on a completely new map for that planet.

Ofcouse this method has issues of other spaceships blocking you from going into a planet tile or not. So if we had say going to planet to planet directly it would stop that but then would also loose the cool feature of solar system space battles.

Anywho I am getting a head of myself. The issue now is to get the multi-maps working. Everything else can be decided later.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The big issue with multi-maps is getting units to go from one map to the other.

This is the easy part.

Instructing the UI to switch maps and providing buttons in the UI for players to be able to do that, getting the maps to switch to where the next unit that comes up for command is, without it costing forever to do it, generating the processes and functions for generating the other map types, and debugging the millions of little issues this is bound to create, those are all the things beyond my ability. My lack of understanding of some of this stuff is extremely obvious in my inability to work with the unit animation crashes we've been getting, which is likely very related to issues like what we would see left and right if we moved to implement this.

The short answer is, I need a very very knowledgeable, tenacious, professional level programmer to help me sort this out. I was hoping that Spirictum could be groomed into this role... (@Spirictum: HINT HINT!) Honestly, anyone who can decipher and react appropriately to what Koshling said in that link is the person we need. He loses me at a number of junctures because again, I'm a game designer who has learned a smattering of programming to enable further design ideas rather than a programmer working on designing a game. AIAndy would've been a good one to get working on this... Even Alberts2 might've been capable. But I just cannot pick up on Koshling's work here... there's just too much fundamental stuff I don't understand.