Multiple Maps and Mapscripts

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd

Is there anyone on the team that knows how to do the stuff that Koshling can do? I honestly don't know since anything beyond XML modding is gibberish to me. If he is the only one that can then I think its understandable that "we" would want him to finish it. Since such a feature would benefit not only C2C but all Civ 4 mods. I hate to put him on the spot but a lot of other factors now depend upon multi-maps.

However if for whatever reason multi-maps never materialize there is a plan B. As I mentioned before with the Future Mod and having more than one map on the same map with it separated by impassible squares. We would have to make custom map scripts but it is within our collective skill level. Paired with the currently functional viewports it would work. However its not nearly as elegant as multi-maps. And all maps would be HUGE just to have a decent size Earth map.

Hmm...

I went through the last page of this thread and it seems we're stuck on something but Koshling seems to have lost us all as to what exactly we're stuck on.

He states we have the API (whatever that is) to switch between maps but we need the UI (user interface) to be developed. I'm not entirely sure what he's asking us here.

I actually am not entirely convinced, after reading back through, that we need python at all (except perhaps for a button that allows us to simply swap to a new map screen from the one we're currently on but I think he's trying to say, with the API comment, that we can already do this basically.)

I think what he's saying we need is to define how and when the new map would be unlocked and how units would move between it, not just in ideas but in code.

For the first question, I suppose I've always assumed we'd be unlocking (generating and maintaining its potential for use) the new maps whenever tech appropriate.

For the second, I think we can do that via the dll with popups. Popups are something I REALLY want to understand, though they are more fully explained on how to use them via python in the forums here. Seems though others on the site understand the use of them from the dll alone (including AIAndy) we don't have an effective tutorial to explain every step (which is what I'd need to really begin to understand how to go about it.)

Missions can be designed to take units from one map to another, each with their own unique filters as to when or why they can be enacted. These missions could be much like air drops or rebase missions except that in the process we get a popup to select the plot on the other map we are moving to, including the potential to enter battle at that plot (according to various qualifications to do so of course.)

I CAN do all that, provided I can understand the following:
1) How to pull a popup at all
2) How to get back the appropriate info from the popup
3) How to refer to plots on another map (I'm really not sure how this has been setup)

What I can't do, or can't foresee myself figuring out, would be the GENERATION routines of the new maps, calling them to be generated and then storing those maps.

We do have these skillsets on the team, or at least the ability to develop them, but we need to be patient for them to get the clearance to focus on this project.

So alls I'm really saying here to the previous comments is that when we pour on a ton of pressure coming at it from a rather selfish approach without putting in the effort to try to contribute to this complex project directly, we're only pushing away those who'd want to help by being demanding. Patience and trust is all I'm urging. The project isn't dead. It won't die until its completed. Same with many other projects on the C2C books.

The 'start from scratch' project is something that will take a very long time to develop and at the moment is more about beginning to dream big for the long term, but I don't think any of us (with the possible exception of one frustrated Koshling ) are looking to slow our efforts here in the C2C MOD. At the moment its in a very basic planning phase while what we have here is rather developed and with quite a few ambitious goals remaining. I don't expect those goals won't be reached.

 

[ls612]

I am unhappy that everyone here is saying that the new project means that multi-maps is dead. Koshling said in the project thread at post #31

I don't plan on leaving. I'd just reduce my effort to focused bug fixes (and multimap support as necessary)

I understand his complaints about the civ 4 engine, and why it would not be fun working with viewports and multi-maps. But if we turn this into a blame fest about "who killed multi-maps" that will be very unproductive. Personally I'd stay around here, in addition to working on the new engine, to make Galactic Era content. The big thing in C2C I could see losing from this is the AI.

 

[Koshling]

As you may have noticed, I am continuing to fix viewport issues (two sets of big fixes this week), because multi maps makes everything a viewport, and be UAE we cannot scale the existing c2c implementation without them. This will continue.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Python part of the multimap problem as I see it (correct me if I am wrong) is that Python is used to display the maps.

So the display needs to change for the differing maps and a method to switch between the maps is needed. Almost all the Python for displaying the game screens is done in CvMainInterface.py which is complex. It uses short cuts and objects in a way you would use in the last millennium on machines with limited hardware and graphics cards. I really hate working with it. I keep thinking I should get a friend over with gallons of iced coffee and redo the whole thing over a weekend. The latter wont happen because all my friends still play civ 2or 3 because the graphics are better in them.

 

[3335d]

The Python part of the multimap problem as I see it (correct me if I am wrong) is that Python is used to display the maps.

So the display needs to change for the differing maps and a method to switch between the maps is needed. Almost all the Python for displaying the game screens is done in CvMainInterface.py which is complex. It uses short cuts and objects in a way you would use in the last millennium on machines with limited hardware and graphics cards. I really hate working with it. I keep thinking I should get a friend over with gallons of iced coffee and redo the whole thing over a weekend. The latter wont happen because all my friends still play civ 2or 3 because the graphics are better in them.

As suggested earlier, someone with administrative power in this project should reach out to Python modders in the SDK/Python subforum of Civ IV C&C.

 

[civfan613]

I so hope this mega project won't burst like a bubble.
It would be extremely unhappy news for many people, me very much included.
Multi-maps is one way to enhance the Civ4 gameplay beyond everlasting.
And making C2C chances to become an official add-on really real.
I'd honestly want that to happen some day in 2013...
You all put so much into it, so it must be rewarded - and I wouldn't think of anythin less than being recognized by the officials.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@C2C Team

So what is the status for "multimaps"? What is holding them up and can they still be done? Any estimate on which version we will first see them in?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just delayed as a matter of priorities I believe.

 

[strategyonly]

Is anyone even working or even thinking of doing this?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, once I've got my lists cleared up. It really is that low a priority for me cuz I don't believe I've ever made it so far into a game, nor do I believe most players do, that it would matter yet.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yeah, once I've got my lists cleared up. It really is that low a priority for me cuz I don't believe I've ever made it so far into a game, nor do I believe most players do, that it would matter yet.

The problem with that sort of thinking is that if you wait until most players get that far and then put in multi maps we, the modders, wont have had a chance to make sure all the bits we have done so far work.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Yeah, once I've got my lists cleared up. It really is that low a priority for me cuz I don't believe I've ever made it so far into a game, nor do I believe most players do, that it would matter yet.

Well in the poll we took, Multimaps was the top in the poll. Whether or not anyone gets there should not matter. Mutimaps should be top priority. So much stuff is waiting on it to be implemented so we can move on.

Not to mention multi-maps could be used in other ways besides the galactic era. However without it implemented we cannot explore that possibility.

If there ever was a goal for the near future of C2C multimaps would be it.

EDIT: According to the original Parallel map posts it was back in April 2012.

[BTS] Parallel Maps
forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=458248

Then the last post was posted in July 2012. Now I realize between April and July we were waiting on LyTning94 to do something. However now that it is "our" hands I would have though that we would have something by now.

Lets not have another year pass by with no multimaps. Caveman 2 Cosmos is just not right without the "Cosmos".

 

[Koshling]

Well in the poll we took, Multimaps was the top in the poll. Whether or not anyone gets there should not matter. Mutimaps should be top priority. So much stuff is waiting on it to be implemented so we can move on.

Not to mention multi-maps could be used in other ways besides the galactic era. However without it implemented we cannot explore that possibility.

If there ever was a goal for the near future of C2C multimaps would be it.

EDIT: According to the original Parallel map posts it was back in April 2012.

[BTS] Parallel Maps
forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=458248

Then the last post was posted in July 2012. Now I realize between April and July we were waiting on LyTning94 to do something. However now that it is "our" hands I would have though that we would have something by now.

Lets not have another year pass by with no multimaps. Caveman 2 Cosmos is just not right without the "Cosmos".

I don't know about you, but I do this as a hobby, not a job. While it is interesting input what people regard as top priority, it's secondary (to me) to doing what is interesting (and in the case of viewports/multimaps, not fantastically frustrating). It was having to work on viewports that drove me away from modding entirely for several months late last year, and I don't plan to get rail-roaded into that area again any more than I can possibly avoid. I have agreed to act as a consultant for the necessary changes for ls612 and/or TB, and if there are especially awkward bits to be done I guess I'll be persuaded, but for me this is definitely going to be done on a well-defined-piece-of-work-on-request basis.

 

[strategyonly]

for me this is definitely going to be done on a well-defined-piece-of-work-on-request basis.

ahahaa nice

 

[ls612]

I don't know about you, but I do this as a hobby, not a job. While it is interesting input what people regard as top priority, it's secondary (to me) to doing what is interesting (and in the case of viewports/multimaps, not fantastically frustrating). It was having to work on viewports that drove me away from modding entirely for several months late last year, and I don't plan to get rail-roaded into that area again any more than I can possibly avoid. I have agreed to act as a consultant for the necessary changes for ls612 and/or TB, and if there are especially awkward bits to be done I guess I'll be persuaded, but for me this is definitely going to be done on a well-defined-piece-of-work-on-request basis.

I agree with this. I have my priorities, and getting bogged down in Multi-Maps is not one of them for now. I did PM you and AIAndy about what I though were the hard/easier parts of it, but I fully understand if this does not happen for a while longer. We all do this for fun, not as a job, and so I personally work on stuff that I enjoy and try and push the mod in a way that I feel is more fun.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I don't know about you, but I do this as a hobby, not a job. While it is interesting input what people regard as top priority, it's secondary (to me) to doing what is interesting (and in the case of viewports/multimaps, not fantastically frustrating). It was having to work on viewports that drove me away from modding entirely for several months late last year, and I don't plan to get rail-roaded into that area again any more than I can possibly avoid. I have agreed to act as a consultant for the necessary changes for ls612 and/or TB, and if there are especially awkward bits to be done I guess I'll be persuaded, but for me this is definitely going to be done on a well-defined-piece-of-work-on-request basis.

Sorry if I came off as bitcy or demanding, but multimaps are what I have been looking forward to for a long time and have been preparing for with the units, terrains, techs, etc. I have tried to get as much as I can do done without actually having multimaps. Including even getting others like DH and ls612 to make the terrain and units for it.

As for volunteer stuff I totally get it. However I have worked on stuff for others that was not fun but had to be done. I know other on the team have as well. You have done amazing work too, and I cannot thank you enough. However multimaps are like a whole other level. So much is hinging upon if they get done.

Plan B is to do like future mod has and making map scrips that have many maps on one map. I want to hold out for multimaps. But not if they never come. People have complained that there is no major project we are focused on. Well multimaps should be it.

And I don't even mean a polished version either. Just something to get maps generated and units moved from one map to the other. I am just afraid that the longer we wait, the less likely it will happen. Or even worse people on the team will disappear after awhile.

I hope you understand that I really do appreciate what you and the rest of the team do. I cannot even imagine how hard you guys work compared to my simple xml modding, graphics making and overall planning. I feel very privileged to even be part of this mod. And if I had the skills to I would be helping with multimaps too.

In sense I feel as helpless as I did when asking Afforess to make buildings for me in RoM/AND. And its really hard to request anything without looking like a greedy beggar. Especially on a project where everyone is doing this for fun.

If there is anything I can do to help please let me know.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My issue is that I'm bogged down and overloaded with projects I'd like to push to completion as it is. Once begun, diverting paths is potentially wasteful and disastrous to the overall effort in the first place. I want a more clear mind without being in the middle of other projects before stepping into something of this kind of complexity and magnitude.

But I find one thing leads to another. And that probably means equally as much that in due time, multimaps will fall squarely into the plan as the next hurdle to overcome before more can be completed. With patience, all projects will be completed eventually.

I'm following a self learning program here too and multi-maps is probably just a touch beyond where I'm comfortable in my knowledge and application. From what has been posted by Koshling, it didn't seem quite as much a trial as I had thought it might be given that I'm gradually achieving some comfortability with popup selection lists and unit missions in the first place. But there are still some areas there that would take some going out of the way to learn specifically and doing so would REALLY mess up the juggling act I'm involved in now in trying to reach the goals I've already set for myself. Had I expected I'd do any work on multi-maps at all from the beginning I might've started off heading that way in the first place but I went in other directions at first, thinking I'd never be able to offer anything to that project. Now... its an eventual inevitability.

I can understand how you and others may feel on the matter too. But surely you still have a lot planned that does not require this mechanism to be in place yet though?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

I am really amazed on how far you have come with your modding skills. My hats off to you.

As for the multimaps. I just don't want them to get buried and forgotten and/or abandoned. If that means 4 months or more that's fine. As long as someone eventually makes them.

I can understand how you and others may feel on the matter too. But surely you still have a lot planned that does not require this mechanism to be in place yet though?

Oh of couse I am set for years even if multimaps are never made. But like Koshling said about wanting to do the fun stuff. Well the stuff I want to do once implemented is the fun stuff.

And technically I could start adding other stuff ahead of time. But I have been told by ls612 and SO to wait until multimaps are in place before putting that stuff in. Which is a catch 22. If we don't add that stuff multimaps wil not have anything, but if we do add them then the game will be slowed down with unusable content due to no multimaps.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well, that makes sense. Unfortunately I can't help with an answer to get around that catch 22 situation yet.

Perhaps, if your finding yourself at a juncture where you're not sure what to work on 'next', it would be good for you to post a list of the goals you have in mind for yourself and we can all take a look at them and consider how they could be timed into development to best harmonize into the current design strategies we are each striving for independently? Not to say I think we should 'tell you what to do' by any means... just that it may be helpful to get feedback from the team on the various projects you have on your list. I'm trying to do this more myself.

 

[ls612]

@Thunderbrd

I am really amazed on how far you have come with your modding skills. My hats off to you.

As for the multimaps. I just don't want them to get buried and forgotten and/or abandoned. If that means 4 months or more that's fine. As long as someone eventually makes them.



Oh of couse I am set for years even if multimaps are never made. But like Koshling said about wanting to do the fun stuff. Well the stuff I want to do once implemented is the fun stuff.

And technically I could start adding other stuff ahead of time. But I have been told by ls612 and SO to wait until multimaps are in place before putting that stuff in. Which is a catch 22. If we don't add that stuff multimaps wil not have anything, but if we do add them then the game will be slowed down with unusable content due to no multimaps.

AIAndy made a good point in the other thread, until we have a reliable way of getting to the Transhuman and Galactic Eras those eras will remain mostly unplayable and little to no Multi-Maps progress will be made. Part of this I suspect is due to how long turns take in the later game, which will be helped by aggressive multi-threading, but part of it is also that things change so often that is hard to keep up a game for 4 months (even for a dev like me). So I'd have to agree adding content there for now is not the best priority, the first priority should be making it easier to get to later eras (and have the AI be still competitive then). That has been a real problem for C2C for a very long time, and I'd like to look at that first before moving to TH and Galactic Era stuff.