Muslim anger grows at Pope speech

[Swiss_Mercenari]

Yes saying that about Jesus is clearly in the same realm as mentioning a historical fact that Muhammed taught his followers to spread the faith with war.

Also, update:

Pope upset that Muslims offended (guess everyone's unhappy now!)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/16/pope.islam/index.html



Looks like the Pope ain't givin' em what they want quite yet!



That'll teach em to quote a guy from 700 years ago who said our religion brings violence!

Spreading faith by war: Do you know how Christianity got to the Americas? WAR!!! AND FORCED CONVERSION. Most people took up Islam because it was technologically advanced and more peaceful than Christianity.

 

[C~G]

"There is no such thing as peace, no such thing as dialogue without getting to the bottom of the truth..." The Vatican (per Fox News this afternoon)

Haven't heard that yet but they don't have slightest idea of communication if that is their stance.

Say, I'm a 'fundie', and I don't think about burning down buildings! Have never heard of such a thing!

And you have never heard of any fundie that might be interested about it?

Moral equivalence upon religions, tsk, tsk, tsk! Not applicable in this case!

I see. Who are you decide whether it's applicable or not? Your logic?
It is always applicable when trying to have dialogue since you must have respect towards the other party to get him interest (even if it's forced), but apparently it wasn't dialogue but disrespecting monologue.

And they do criticize the West, ad nauseum.

And what do you think westerners do about muslims all the time? Only this time it was the head of Vatican with added bonus flaming material.

We Christian 'fundies' don't care what anyone says about Jesus, we are still willing to talk... we are given no choice... "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD..." Isaiah 18:1

So you are the official voice of the Christian fundies in general?
I don't believe so.

I think one of the official voices opened his mouth and hadn't clearly anything reasonable to say.
Still don't really understand what was the point of it.

 

[Katheryn]

Spreading faith by war: Do you know how Christianity got to the Americas? WAR!!! AND FORCED CONVERSION. Most people took up Islam because it was technologically advanced and more peaceful than Christianity.

Oh, dear. You must be joking.... right?

Actually, the Christians that first came to America, came because they were persecuted in England. We call them pilgrims. The majority of them were Quakers, not exactly the standard fare European brand Christianity, you see... as in not Anglican. They did a lot of annoying **shaking** too. Also annoying were those awful Methodists, who were trying to change laws in England -child labor, that type of thing, not popular with the aristocracy, you know!

The next wave of people to populate early America were the prison population, as in penal colony - sold by the state as indentured servants, also known as transportation. As a prison sentence, many men and women were transported either to the 'colonies' or to Australia.

The next wave of people were migrant workers, Irish, Chinese, Italian, Germans, and (like my grandparents) Danish. These were the masses of poor and starving, searching for a new home where it didn't matter what class you were born into (unless you were black, of course).

However, due to their backgrounds, none of these masses were at all motivated to force anyone to do anything. They were just hard workers who learned the American motto:

..."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."

 

[Swiss_Mercenari]

I mean the Catholic Church. And how they killed Natives who would not convert. Sheesh. It's in all of the history books!

(unless you were black, of course)

Racism?

 

[GenMarshall]

Spreading faith by war: Do you know how Christianity got to the Americas? WAR!!! AND FORCED CONVERSION. Most people took up Islam because it was technologically advanced and more peaceful than Christianity.

Youre kidding right? I dont see Christians clamoring to arm themselves and attack people or nations who blasphemize or offends their religion. I fail to see how Islam is more advanced when the women are treated like second class citizens under Islamic law. I also fail to see how Islam is more peacefull when even the mear sight of a Muhammed Cartoon boils their blood.

 

[GenMarshall]

I mean the Catholic Church. And how they killed Natives who would not convert.

Here we go again, putting the blame on the Catholic Church .

It was the Conquestodors who forced the native Mesoamericans to convert, not the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church. As for the North American Native Americans, they were forced to convert by protestant Christians.

 

[Katheryn]

Haven't heard that yet but they don't have slightest idea of communication if that is their stance.
And you have never heard of any fundie that might be interested about it?
I see. Who are you decide whether it's applicable or not? Your logic?
It is always applicable when trying to have dialogue since you must have respect towards the other party to get him interest (even if it's forced), but apparently it wasn't dialogue but disrespecting monologue.
And what do you think westerners do about muslims all the time? Only this time it was the head of Vatican with added bonus flaming material.
So you are the official voice of the Christian fundies in general?
I don't believe so.

I think one of the official voices opened his mouth and hadn't clearly anything reasonable to say.
Still don't really understand what was the point of it.

There is no fundie that is interested in burning any building. None. If a fundie even discussed burning down a mosque, you can believe we would hear about it immediately. Via the internet, these things come out quickly. We all know who the 'official voice of the Christian fundies' are. The Vatican is the Roman Catholic Church and is not 'fundamentalist Christianity', you know that right? Fundamentalists are a Protestant sect, which means that they reject the authority of the Pope.

Christians do not have to 'force' respect, because they believe that all men were created by God, and American Christians as I posted above, believe that they are all created equal. And that is the basis of the respect, nothing else, but enough. Christians hate the sin but love the sinner. That is the way to think of it, we love because He first loved us. We forgive because He forgave us. So there is no force here. Only Christians, behaving in reaction to the work of the cross, "abhorring the shame but magnified in mercy", reconciling the world... a Christ did.

Still, how can someone know if they have sinned unless someone tell them? This is what the Pope has done.

 

[brachy-pride]

America in much of the world means the USA, but also all the landmass from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego in Chile and Argentina (its original meaning)

I guess he means that christianity spread thru the native peoples of America (amerindians) by force (which depending on how you read that could be completely accurate, true to some degree, or innacurate)

 

[Katheryn]

I mean the Catholic Church. And how they killed Natives who would not convert. Sheesh. It's in all of the history books!
Racism?

What? Not in any history book I know!

The Spanish fought the Aztecs (if this is what you are referring to) because they sacrificed young virgin girls to the Sun God. They ate their enemies, yes, that would be cannibalism. The Spanish said, 'Y'all stop that!' and the Aztecs returned, 'Don't boss us around! We'll eat you too if you try to stop us from sacrificing this beautiful 12 year old!" and the Spanish said, "Say hello to my .44!" I know they didn't have .44s then, but you get the idea!


And regarding the slaves, of course it was racist, but it was outlawed in
1861, thanks to the Quakers, in the Northeast who worked so diligently to wipe slavery off the continent.

 

[JohnRM]

Spreading faith by war: Do you know how Christianity got to the Americas? WAR!!! AND FORCED CONVERSION. Most people took up Islam because it was technologically advanced and more peaceful than Christianity.

I don't care much for the past. What has been going on today? It is the Islamic World that is violent. The Christian World, with few exceptions, is peaceful.

 

[Urederra]

Actually, the Christians that first came to America, came because they were persecuted in England. We call them pilgrims.

I think he meant the spanish conquistadors.

But sorry, C~G, two bads don't make one good. What are you trying to argue, anyway? that the muslims had the right to extend their religion through a holy war, that the christians had the right to do the same in America, and Asia? It is either that both things are bad or that both things are O.K. I think it is wrong, what the muslims did during and after mojamé the jerk invented the islamic religion and decided to extend it through a Holy war and what the conquistadores did in America.

The difference is that nowadays there is not warry means of extending christianity whereas in the muslim world you cannot say that nobody wants to extend islam by using the sword. That is exactly what the DAD should have said.

 

[Katheryn]

Here we go again, putting the blame on the Catholic Church .

It was the Conquestodors who forced the native Mesoamericans to convert, not the Clergy of the Roman Catholic Church. As for the North American Native Americans, they were forced to convert by protestant Christians.

I have never heard such a thing.

All the American pioneers did is fight with the Indians. I know of no attempt to convert any of them. The U.S. government continually made agreements with them that were broken. Manifest Destiny and all that. If they converted, they would have treated them very differently.

Where did you hear that?

 

[Katheryn]

I don't care much for the past. What has been going on today? It is the Islamic World that is violent. The Christian World, with few exceptions, is peaceful.

Actually, I can't think of one exception, can you enlighten us?

And to say that the Aztecs became extinct because of Christianity is just not accurate. The (Mexican) Indians were constantly at war with one another.

And forced conversions are simply not in Christian History. There was infighting with Protestants and Christian 'gnostics' and with Jews, which comprised the Inquisitions, but other than this, it doesn't exist.

 

[Urederra]

Spreading faith by war: Do you know how Christianity got to the Americas? WAR!!! AND FORCED CONVERSION. Most people took up Islam because it was technologically advanced and more peaceful than Christianity.

Have you read Kathilyn's post about the islamic invasion in Europe?

Either provide prove that those historic events are not true or take your word back.

There were islamic invasions in Spain, Italy, France, Portugal, all of them less than fifty years after the death of the jerk. So stop saying that they were more peaceful than Christianity. Christianity was peaceful until it was invaded by those barbarians.

 

[GenMarshall]

I have never heard such a thing.

All the American pioneers did is fight with the Indians. I know of no attempt to convert any of them. The U.S. government continually made agreements with them that were broken. Manifest Destiny and all that. If they converted, they would have treated them very differently.

Where did you hear that?

I am mainly refering to early in colonial American history (1607- around 1700) when the colonist, the Pilgrims and the Puritans, would oftenly would refer to the native Americans as savages and other derogitory terms. I am not sure if this would be true or not, but I believe that there would be some groups of colonist who made an attempt to convert the local native American tribes.

 

[C~G]

There is no fundie that is interested in burning any building. None. If a fundie even discussed burning down a mosque, you can believe we would hear about it immediately. Via the internet, these things come out quickly. We all know who the 'official voice of the Christian fundies' are. The Vatican is the Roman Catholic Church and is not 'fundamentalist Christianity', you know that right? Fundamentalists are a Protestant sect, which means that they reject the authority of the Pope.

The words have many meanings.
I used "fundamentalist" as general term.
This current pope is sometimes seen as of some sort of "fundamentalist".

Still, how can someone know if they have sinned unless someone tell them? This is what the Pope has done.

I must congrulate him from job well done then. He only upset few muslims while being at it.
Pope doesn't have any authority to tell muslims about their sins which seems to escape you especially if he's trying to have dialogue with them.

What? Not in any history book I know!

Spaniards probably saved those 12 year old virgins from sacrifice before raping and killing them by themselves.

But sorry, C~G, two bads don't make one good. What are you trying to argue, anyway?

Are you talking to me?
I'm trying to refute the way in which Pope tried to say something useful but ended up just doing the opposite.

The difference is that nowadays there is not warry means of extending christianity whereas in the muslim world you cannot say that nobody wants to extend islam by using the sword. That is exactly what the DAD should have said.

What is the purpose of such notion?
If that was the purpose like it would mean something, his reflections were done in complete ignorance towards Islam.

 

[Urederra]

But sorry, C~G, two bads don't make one good. What are you trying to argue, anyway?

Are you talking to me?

Do you see any other C~G posting in this thread?

I'm trying to refute the way in which Pope tried to say something useful but ended up just doing the opposite.

So, he said something useless?

What is the purpose of such notion?
If that was the purpose like it would mean something, his reflections were done in complete ignorance towards Islam.

There is a language barrier here, It is either my fault or yours.

But sorry, C~G, two bads don't make one good. What are you trying to argue, anyway?

Are you talking to me?

Here it is a hint to find who's fault it is.

 

[C~G]

Urederra, I have posted quite bunch of messages here and repeated many times even in two threads what I mean and if you don't find any meaning from my messages and have something to add to it please do so or otherwise it's time to find something else.

 

[Urederra]

Ok, I am sorry if I was rude. Forgive me.

 

[C~G]

Of course you are forgiven.

And as you weren't overly rude, we can continue our dialogue about something else.