Muslim hypocrisy?

[Winner]

i dont think what al-qaeda dose is representative of what muslims as a group do, and suggesting otherwise most defenitly is trolling.
kinda like your old sig was.

Read again what is this thread about. Some Muslims are committing a HORRIBLE SINS in the name of Islam, but majority of Muslims tolerate that, they don't protest against it very much. But because of stupid cartoons, they make huge rallies and burn flags, attack embassy etc.

This is hypocrisy. What are the terrorists doing is blasphemy much worse, that few drawings, but they ignore it.

be careful? is that an E threat?
if youre being serious PM me

What threat? I just said that you shouldn't be so quick in calling my thread a troll, especially when you didn't get its point.

 

[Winner]

I'm very sad to see the complete bigotry by some members on this forum. I think people should consider the fact that when they talk about no Muslim condemming terroist attacks, they should really talk to Muslims in their community rather than relying on the media to report on all the idiots of the religion.
When it comes to the cartoons I can see why it's caused so much outrage. Imagine you're an average Muslim who merely wants to put food on the table for your family, you take racism every for terroism by people who claim to be Muslims when in actual fact they behave in complete oppisite to Allah's teachings.
And then some smart arse cartoonist thinks it's a great laugh to show your prophet, the man who started a religion based on serving God as a murderer. Do you think Catholics would like it if the Pope was shown to be a member of the IRA? Or that Protestants find themselves being lumped in the same group as the KKK?
The fact is that there was the same fuss a few months ago in Britain about the Jerry Springer Opera. But were the people who sent death threats there condemmed as hypocrites or savages? No, because they were seen as a stupid minority much like the terroists are to Islam. There's idiots in all religions, Islam has the misfortune simply to have some of the most vocal, that's all.

Again a huge dose of relativism.

After London bombings, several Muslim groups denounced it and I appreciate that. But what about the Middle East, the source of our problems? What about the Muslims there? How is that possible they didn't make any rallies, why they don't protest against terrorism at least as much as they protest against CARTOONS? I don't get it.

Is it so hard to understand what I mean?

Imagine some people of your country were blowing themselves up in trains in some foreign country, claiming they are doing it in the name of God you believe in. I would be outraged and I would protest against abusing my faith for something so evil.

But as it appears, the majority of Muslims do nothing against it. I think they ignore it because they generally don't mind killing Westerners. We're the oppressors so we deserve to die. Nice.

And please, I have enough of various accusations that I am being racist. I am not. I just don't bother with political correctness and I want some anwers, so I am going right to the point.

My question is simple, you find it in the opening post, it is bold and big, you can't miss it. Simply answer it without all that "you're a bigot" stuff.

 

[Winner]

It would be nice if Muslims objected to terrorism in the name of Islam, as much as they object to cartoons.

At least one man understand what is this thread about. Thank you

 

[storealex]

Winner, you want answers, well here you go:

1. Muslims are used to death. Death is a part of life down there, and is taken lightly. An example could be when the Danish troops in Iraq shot an Iraqi man by accident. His tribe felt that it was an attack on their honor, and that this honor was much more important than the mans life. The Danes apologised and paid a symbolic amount to the tribe, and it was settled. Their honor was restored, and that was all that mattered.

2. Muslim are very proud and cannot laugh at themselves. In the West, we are what we have. We are our job, our house, our car, our furniture etc. In the Middle East, all you have is crap. Therefore you are not what you have, but your honor. Your integrity is all you have to lose and you therefore defend it and cannot take insults.

3. Many Muslim hate the West, and obviously wont cry over dead Westerns.

4. In the Middle East. Nothing is printed without the Government accepting it. And if it is, the Government will punish the newspaper. There is no freedom of speech, so when the Muslims hear about Jyllands Posten, they come to the conclusion that it's the official Denmark speaking.

 

[Winner]

Winner, you want answers, well here you go:

1. Muslims are used to death. Death is a part of life down there, and is taken lightly. An example could be when the Danish troops in Iraq shot an Iraqi man by accident. His tribe felt that it was an attack on their honor, and that this honor was much more important than the mans life. The Danes apologised and paid a symbolic amount to the tribe, and it was settled. Their honor was restored, and that was all that mattered.

2. Muslim are very proud and cannot laugh at themselves. In the West, we are what we have. We are our job, our house, our car, our furniture etc. In the Middle East, all you have is crap. Therefore you are not what you have, but your honor. Your integrity is all you have to lose and you therefore defend it and cannot take insults.

3. Many Muslim hate the West, and obviously wont cry over dead Westerns.

4. In the Middle East. Nothing is printed without the Government accepting it. And if it is, the Government will punish the newspaper. There is no freedom of speech, so when the Muslims hear about Jyllands Posten, they come to the conclusion that it's the official Denmark speaking.

That sounds reasonable. Now, does this all mean that we should respect their beliefs and limit our own freedom? I think not.


(BTW I guess you will be soon labeled as a racist and bigot. Welcome to the club)

 

[Jawz II]

Read again what is this thread about. Some Muslims are committing a HORRIBLE SINS in the name of Islam, but majority of Muslims tolerate that, they don't protest against it very much. But because of stupid cartoons, they make huge rallies and burn flags, attack embassy etc.

This is hypocrisy. What are the terrorists doing is blasphemy much worse, that few drawings, but they ignore it.



What threat? I just said that you shouldn't be so quick in calling my thread a troll, especially when you didn't get its point.

i get the point.

how much did you protest the iraq war? abu ghraib? israelis killing palestinian civilians? if youre gonna point fingers, maybe you should start with yourself.

 

[Steph]

I haven't read this whole thread and this may be off topic but concerning the recent riots in Australia and many Western European nations, I was surprised to learn there are actually ghetto communities made wholly of immigrants from the Muslim Middle East and North Africa.

My question is, why do many European nations and Australia have these problems of integration?

I can speak only for France, but I can see several factors.
First, the immigrants who came initially from North Africa (we don't have as many from the Middle East) were "welcomed" to do harsh reconstruction work after WWII. Later, France entered a period of economical prosperity known as the "30 glorieuses" (the 30 glorious years). We needed manpower. Cheap manpower. So we let immigrants came to do that. They were not well paid compare to our own standard, and so could not afford nice houses, and were living in really poor conditions.
Later, we had a new wave of immigration because of Algeria war: a lot of people came back from there and needed to be housed.
And last, people who came here to work initially wanted to bring their familly with them, and than sound logical. We ask them to work for thus, I don't see why we should have refuse it.

So in the end 60 / early 70, we decided to improve their leaving conditions. So we build a lot oif HLM (Habitation à loyer modéré = housing with cheap rent). It was large several stories buildings, with many appartement, which at the time were quite nice and modern. As it was cheap, immigrants could afford them. But still, it was not so good as houses in rich neighbouroud, so the whites who went there were mostly low class.

The result was these cities were mostly inhabited by immigrants. However, it's was not done to regroup them and park them.

The problem is at the time, some people thought this kind of buildings (inspired by communist architecture ) was a very good answer: people will leave together, it will help build a society and help them integrate, it was cheap and fast to build compared to single houses...

But it was a big mistakes:
- The building were nice initially, but became quite crapy as they get older, and were not properly maintained / replaced.
- They were not so nice as the planner think. Not enough light, not enough trees, etc. And were quite deshumanizing.
- We in fact concentrated the poors in these buildings, and created immigrant communities.

Later, when the economical situation worsened, we did not need to much cheap labor (especially with robotics in factories), and we had to many of them (with their familly,etc). The economy mutated, and required more and more skilled people. But people from this communities were not skilled enough.

So unemployement soon skyrocketed in these "cités". With unemployement came the temptation of small criminality (drug traffic, stealing cars, etc). And also the feeling to be abandonned by the authorities, and parked in some kind of reserve. And they also fell back on each other. Instead of being French, or or being Algerian or Morrocan, or being muslim, they feel they are from a specific cité.

Also, the gangs of young in these cities make it not enjoyable to live in, etc.


Another reason of our difficulty of integration is lack of education. We blindly thought that our culture was so superior that immigrants would gladly and automatically adopt them. The problem is we didn't teach that culture.

So the immigrants leaved together, didn't really learn the language, and continued to leave the way they did before, because they were used to it and didn't really know another way. They integrated to slowly.

Now, we start to see the big mistakes we have done, and have taken a few steps to correct it:

- We try to spread the immigrants, destroy old buildings, build new cheap housing, but small buildings spread as much as possible, to break these "immigrant communties"
- We have also created a kind of contract for new immigrants, where they can get free training course in French language, basic French laws and customs, so they don't feel rejected and can learn enough of their new country to adopt it.
- And we are also fighting descrimination, so they can find job, don't feel rejected, and start to feel French

 

[Gelion]

That sounds reasonable. Now, does this all mean that we should respect their beliefs and limit our own freedom? I think not.


(BTW I guess you will be soon labeled as a racist and bigot. Welcome to the club)

Actually in comparison to your views which are outright faschist I think storelax post is very reasonable and correct (if not complete....)

Mon cher ami Winner the Muslim collective culture does not stand for many of the freedoms that the West (which you think you are part of, hence your "we" I imagine). Therefore you can respect them, you can disrespect them no one gives a d***. What you should do is not do anything that might provoke the so far passive Mulsim population into doing something that both sides will regret.

As I said before this is a goobalized world. Want to live in peace with your neighbour? - Dont spit into his face!

 

[Winner]

i get the point.

how much did you protest the iraq war? abu ghraib? israelis killing palestinian civilians? if youre gonna point fingers, maybe you should start with yourself.

1 million people marching in Rome against the war, hundreds of thousands in London, Berlin, Paris. Tens of thousands in America. People here do protest against the war.

What is more important, the anti-war views can reach the media. In the Muslim world, any criticism of Islam is forbidden. They are very narrow-minded, almost like Europe was in the middle ages.

If you're talking about me personally, I opposed the war in every discussion I had with anyone. I don't think that if I burned the US flag, it would be appropriate form of protest. I don't threaten US citizens living here with death, because their government did something I don't like. Muslims, on the other hand, use different ways of protests...

 

[Winner]

Actually in comparison to your views which are outright faschist I think storelax post is very reasonable and correct (if not complete....)

What the **** is fascist about my views? Stop accusing me, its too stupid even for you, Gelion

Mon cher ami Winner the Muslim collective culture does not stand for many of the freedoms that the West (which you think you are part of, hence your "we" I imagine). Therefore you can respect them, you can disrespect them no one gives a d***. What you should do is not do anything that might provoke the so far passive Mulsim population into doing something that both sides will regret.

In other words, we should impose some sort of self-censorship. That ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. I won't give up my right to say what I think, even if it is offensive. In civilized societies, I should not be threatened with death because of it. Apparently, some Muslim societies don't get it.

As I said before this is a goobalized world. Want to live in peace with your neighbour? - Dont spit into his face!

My Gods! They're not only spitting into our faces, they are killing our people in the name of THEIR FAITH. That's OK according to you? That's what we should ignore? This should be an incentive for us to respect them? I don't get why some people (especially you) see the source of everything in the West.

 

[Jawz II]

1 million people marching in Rome against the war, hundreds of thousands in London, Berlin, Paris. Tens of thousands in America. People here do protest against the war.

What is more important, the anti-war views can reach the media. In the Muslim world, any criticism of Islam is forbidden. They are very narrow-minded, almost like Europe was in the middle ages.

If you're talking about me personally, I opposed the war in every discussion I had with anyone. I don't think that if I burned the US flag, it would be appropriate form of protest. I don't threaten US citizens living here with death, because their government did something I don't like. Muslims, on the other hand, use different ways of protests...

so your saying muslims (all 1 billion of them) are narrowminded? that says alot about you and nothing about muslims as a group.

and yes im talking about you personally, what youre saying is you didnt protest? cause i didnt ask if you opposed it, for all you know 99,99% of muslims oppose terrorism too, but youre saying they dont, cause they dont protest it.

again, take a good look at your own, non-protesting self.

also, you have gotta stop generalizing and stereotyping all muslims, based on the actions of a few missguided ones.

youre trolling the few muslims we have here on CFC, and making yourself look like a bigot.

 

[Gelion]

What the **** is fascist about my views? Stop accusing me, its too stupid even for you, Gelion

Maybe someone else will point that out? I'm tired of repeating myself.

In other words, we should impose some sort of self-censorship. That ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE. I won't give up my right to say what I think, even if it is offensive. In civilized societies, I should not be threatened with death because of it. Apparently, some Muslim societies don't get it.

If I dont want to fight you I should probably not call you an i*****. If I want to get you angry and attack me thats exactly what I would do. Journalism is also about responsibility, not only reporting the news and shouting whatever one wants to shout without any concerns for others?
I hope the word "responsibility" is not new to you.
There's another thread about Turkish newpaper publishing c**** about US army. Isn't that freedom of speech?

My Gods! They're not only spitting into our faces, they are killing our people in the name of THEIR FAITH. That's OK according to you? That's what we should ignore? This should be an incentive for us to respect them? I don't get why some people (especially you) see the source of everything in the West.

Aren't you killing them too? In the name of your Gods of Money and Democracy?

 

[Winner]

so your saying muslims (all 1 billion of them) are narrowminded? that says alot about you and nothing about muslims as a group.

OK, for the last time: NO. I am talking about radical Muslims, not all Muslims. Read the disclaimer in my opening post.

and yes im talking about you personally, what youre saying is you didnt protest? cause i didnt ask if you opposed it, for all you know 99,99% of muslims oppose terrorism too, but youre saying they dont, cause they dont protest it.

What is more serious? Cartoon or WTC attack? Because the latter left them cold, but sme drawing ingnited them as a gas station.

again, take a good look at your own, non-protesting self.

My government didn't attacked Iraq. That war wasn't waged in my name or in the name of my faith. Still, I protest.

also, you have gotta stop generalizing and stereotyping all muslims, based on the actions of a few missguided ones.

youre trolling the few muslims we have here on CFC, and making yourself look like a bigot.

No, I am not. As someone said, people make their impression from what they see. What I see is Muslim hypocrisy and rage. If there is a great majority of Muslims opposing terrorism, they should rise up and stop it. Otherwise, I have to conclude they're not a majority, but a very small minority, which is much more probable.

 

[Jawz II]

My Gods! They're not only spitting into our faces, they are killing our people in the name of THEIR FAITH. That's OK according to you? That's what we should ignore? This should be an incentive for us to respect them? I don't get why some people (especially you) see the source of everything in the West.

no one has ever killed anyone in the name of their faith. period.

thats just an old trick, make your enemy seem like this irrational monster thats operating out of an alien manual, totally evil and unpredictable.

the nazis did it to dehumanize the jews. why are the jews evil? cause theyre jews. their holy book says this and that. whatever.

now facists use it for the muslims, its the same crap, diffrent day.


people kill people because of other reasons, but they do justify their actions with religion.
sometimes its greed, sometime its fear. sometime its just so the people can have a common enemy so they will unite. there are many reasons, religion is not one of them, has never been.

where in the bible dose it say that crusaders should travel to arab lands and murder people? nowhere, they did it because of greed, and they told themselves they were doing it for god so they could sleep at night.

same deal with muslim terrorists, they do it because of hatred, revenge, ignorance and other reasons. not religion.

if people actually did what their religions told them to, this world would be better than paradise.

 

[Gelion]

OK, for the last time: NO. I am talking about radical Muslims, not all Muslims. Read the disclaimer in my opening post.

"Any Muslim to be a true Muslim....." where is your old sig? Or have your views changed?

What is more serious? Cartoon or WTC attack? Because the latter left them cold, but sme drawing ingnited them as a gas station.

"How about Palestine? For 50 years the people sufffer because of your lack of protest to the lawless occupation of a Muslim land. You should be ashamed of yourself"

My government didn't attacked Iraq. That war wasn't waged in my name or in the name of my faith. Still, I protest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Country_positions_Iraq_war.png
Take a look at this image. Carefully. Your government supports the war. Furthermore the War was in the name of Your Security and Their Democracy. Your values.....not theirs.

 

[Jawz II]

OK, for the last time: NO. I am talking about radical Muslims, not all Muslims. Read the disclaimer in my opening post.

you cant say whatever you want cause you put a disclaimer on your opening post.

we have very few muslims here, and i dont want you to troll them away, im intrested in their point of view.

What is more serious? Cartoon or WTC attack? Because the latter left them cold, but sme drawing ingnited them as a gas station.

what is more serious, 9/11 or the iraq war?
besides if you really are talking about radical muslims, then how can you expect them to protest 9/11? radical muslims where the ones that carried out the 9/11 attacks, you want them to protest themselves?

My government didn't attacked Iraq. That war wasn't waged in my name or in the name of my faith. Still, I protest.

youre protesting on an internet forum, but you didnt demonsterate! if thats what youre demanding from the muslims, then how is it asking too much, if you demand as much from yourself? just looking for alittle consistency.

for all you know there are muslims protesting 9/11 on internet forums. i dont speak arabic, if i did i would look into it.

No, I am not. As someone said, people make their impression from what they see. What I see is Muslim hypocrisy and rage. If there is a great majority of Muslims opposing terrorism, they should rise up and stop it. Otherwise, I have to conclude they're not a majority, but a very small minority, which is much more probable.

oh so you werent talking about radicals, you were talking about all muslims? you were lying in your disclaimer?

based on which research? youre saying a majority of them support terrorist over and over again, but you dont actually give any sources, no polls

all you got is "they didnt protest violence again westerners" while at the same time youre admitting you didnt protest violence against them.

as gelion already said, yout get back, only what you give.

 

[Princeps]

Hail teh psychoanalyst !

Gee, thanks.

(I know that because that has happened to me often. In other threads)

 

[Shevek]

i get the point.

how much did you protest the iraq war? abu ghraib? israelis killing palestinian civilians? if youre gonna point fingers, maybe you should start with yourself.

That just seems to be the whole point here.
I do not know about Winner but I do clearly remember the huge mass protests in Europe about the war in Iraq (was myself in the 1Mio+ crowd in London).
I do remember a very voluble outrage and disgust in the Western world about Abu Graib.
And I know also of loads of Westerners who loudly and often condemm Israels policy against the Palestinians.
See?

I do not at all believe that Winner is trying to convince anyone that all Muslims are terrorists or bad per se.
He just seems to think that they should not only critize the shortcomimgs of the West (of which there are many) but also see their own shortcomings. It's a thing of balance. If that balance is not there then it can be called hypocricy.

 

[classical_hero]

Just a completley pointless post here ... are there any muslim (registered) on this forum ... are they watching this ... because from most of the muslim related topics in OT i only found several people that are not against them :shakehead :
Now what does this make the forum ?

The problem is that we do not see much public outcry about terroism. If someon is going to say this is not so, then show me. Many people here are against Islam because we some of it's believers going around killing people and we se the vast majority of the rest saying nothing bad about these people. It seem that the minority of Muslims are rejecting there terroristic acts in the name of their religion and their god. That is what gets most people here upset. If it is really a minority that does this, then the majority must show that these are a minority, but we just do not see that. It does not help that we have a Nation that is so inept in doing it's job that there views almost seem to be justified.

 

[ThERat]

of all the poeple in the Islam world that protest now against the cartoons, I guess very few have actually seen them. I know how news get distorted.

Sometimes my father tells me about news from SE Asia and I have to downright laugh about the nonsense that's said.

However, the media (and that means the governments in the Islam world) are very happy that the cartoon news are most likely totally distorted.

Europeans must not let themselves get threatened and apologize. If they do now, there will be no end to it. And as pointed out before, why now such an outcry? Why not when human rights are violated all the time in their own country.
Women are treated like subhumans in certain (surely not all) Muslim countries, that alone makes any protests against some drawings on paper trivial to me.