[BTS] My First Emperor Shadow Game

[Fippy]

Can recommend looking at Simple Machines save,
you can see how everything was done with a plan there
Things like avoiding a river "bridge" (slows down movement until construction) for pigs city roads, keeping an Axe in queue while switching to granary, fogbusting..
you can learn quiet a lot from this save.

 

[CGQ]

Thank you for all the advice, I guess I really do have a lot to learn

I went back to turn 18 and replayed to turn 39. I'm stuck here

Spoiler From T18 to T39 :

After studying Simple Machine's save, I replayed from when I was right about to take the worker at T18. I took the worker and used the warrior to spawn bust. I also met this guy:


This time around, I also made sure to only use my workers to work and not scout, took out Sally's scout to declare peace (costed me 1 warrior) used the warriors to spawn bust and didn't go too far with them:



The thing that confused me was what to do with my first worker when he finished the corn just after I took Sally's worker. I just chopped the trees south of Rome so they don't slow down my next settler, and I chopped him at size 3.

I also delayed slavery and only switched once the settler was already out on his way to settle by the copper, so he wouldn't be delayed (Learned that move from Wrafthful)

Here's the empire at Turn 39:


I have no idea what to do with the workers here though. With AH still 5 turns away, there isn't much for them to do here. I can't build cottages yet and I don't want to waste the trees, but I don't want to waste the worker. Any ideas?

 

[sampsa]

I have no idea what to do with the workers here though. With AH still 5 turns away, there isn't much for them to do here. I can't build cottages yet and I don't want to waste the trees, but I don't want to waste the worker. Any ideas?

priority: food>chopping>trade routes>chopping>more chopping>maybe a mine

That plains hill mine is a small mistake, immediately chopping was better. I wouldn't work a 21-tile. I certainly wouldn't be at 80% slider (always 0/100).

edit: not sold on the workboat either, there is no pressing reason for a scouting boat on continents (would be different on fractal). Early game is about swift expansion, meaning you should mostly be building settlers and workers with enough units to guarantee that you are able to safely expand.

 

[lymond]

Yep, I don't see a need for a WB either nor that warrior sitting in Antium. (warrior should be out W spawnbusting..2N of fish to W is perfect) The warrior way W is in a fine spot.

I think AH before TW would have been better first, unless you plan to attack Sal..not sure that is advisable now since you know he has copper.

I guess settling copper city first is okay. Insta-trade route and production. You could actually build a settler in Antium with copper alone and maybe a chop.

On higher levels though, I'd be a little concerned about the pigs spot being contested, and it really the best of the nearby cities considering the land here. But then, you are Imp so can get settlers out fast.

If you time 2pop settler whips with chops, you can get new workers very fast.

Yep, no one may have explained the binary research yet. Due to a rounding glitch, it is best to accumulate the money you need to finish a tech at 0% research, then go 100% research to complete (do so as soon as the maths works out).

On a small note, take note of nearby AI units that are scouting. For instance, that Arab scout just below your warrior in the North. This turn, that scout is spawnbusting basically the same area your warrior is. Opportunity to advance the warrior N a tile or two to scout then back as the scout moves away.


Anyway, a bit improved turnset.

You can whip that settler in Rome next turn into a new worker, as the worker there moves to chop. Oh, work a high hammer tile instead of grass this turn for more hammers into settler with IMP.

edit: put EP focus on Inca

 

[Gumbolt]

What is your plan here? You are getting some conflicting advice here which makes threads like this very difficult.

Sorry I probably gave you the workboat idea. it does have some merit if you are wiping out the Arabs. Coastal trade routes with sailing once you find an AI.

With imperialistic trait you should be working best hammer tiles when playing. Switching to 3H tile saves 1 turn on settler.

Copper/vs pigs site? Danger of Sala settling near pigs site? I can see what you tried to do here tech wise.

If your planning a rush you need to plan for axes and probably 12 of them. Protective AI with a shrine capital. If your planning axes you don't want 4 warriors. 1-2 is ample.

If your playing peacefully you need to consider cottage/granary route.There are limited good city spots near you. You should be expanding to 5-6 cities once you have pottery teched.

24h in a barracks maybe not needed before you had 3rd city. I pretty much built 2 settlers back to back.

 

[Simple Machine]

I agree with Gumbolt - seems like there's two good short term approaches for you:
1) Axe rush saladin - he's already slowed down b/c of your worker steal and shouldn't be too difficult to take out
2) Peaceful expansion - with imp trait you can whip out settlers and get to 6 cities very quickly

I guess it's really a matter of preference, both seem like good options in this case, no?

 

[CGQ]

I agree with Gumbolt - seems like there's two good short term approaches for you:
1) Axe rush saladin - he's already slowed down b/c of your worker steal and shouldn't be too difficult to take out
2) Peaceful expansion - with imp trait you can whip out settlers and get to 6 cities very quickly

I guess it's really a matter of preference, both seem like good options in this case, no?

Spoiler Went back and replayed from turn 18 to turn 50 :

I decided option 1 since he likely has better land.

I did basically what I did last time except I made sure to waste as few worker turns as possible (and no plain hill mine this time) except I lost a warrior to a lion and panther. Went for TW then AH, chopped both settlers in a row and settled Antium then Cumae. Built a road with the sole purpose of hooking all cities up with Copper while I waited for AH. I also went ahead and chopped a couple Axeman. I haven't whipped anyone yet. I'm going to whip the remaining Axe-men to attack. Was it wise to go for writing or should I have gone for pottery first?

 

[Anysense]

Sally's got copper in his BFC

Plains copper being 11 means that Saladin does not have BW yet. Another indicator is that AI will always adopt slavery as soon as they can.

Seeing as food isn't great, I would not be too hot about whipping here, except may be 3rd or 4th settler with max overflow into granary. PH mine is a 6 tile while building settlers, and Rome won't be building anything else for a while, so its a good investment.

I don't understand that 1S of pigs thing. What makes it better than settling with freshwater, 2nd food resource and 2nd cottageable grassland in the first ring?

Normally, I'd rather expand peacefully with imperialistic leader, but with such bleak land around it makes sense to axe-rush from 3 or 4 cities. Although, it may not be the optimal play.

 

[pigswill]

I had a quick go at this up to T50

Spoiler :

Main difference is that I went Hunting>AH and settled third city between deer and pigs 'food is king'

 

[Fippy]

Adding that i believe copper or not for Sally is unimportant,
Axes as defenders might actually be weaker than his prot. Archers (and more expensive).
(unless waiting for Praets, but i think Axes would do on Emp)

 

[lymond]

POT first might have been best since commerce is an issue...Rome and pigs city can get some cottages eventually.

Yep, not opposed to an Axe rush. You can mostly chop them them out. The first Arab city has the copper anyway so once you take that hopefully he's done with metals. It's a long walk so make so it is all or nothing, so make sure you have a reasonable stack.

As My mentioned early, don't road over river. Road 1NW of Rome and then on so Axes can move 2 tiles. A third worker would be nice as well to help with roads and chops. Haven't look at new save yet so not sure how things look for that.

edit: okay took a look

Your spawn busting is very poor this go round, and you still have a warrior in copper city

good you have a second worker but two bad you did not 2 pop whip it earlier into an axe.

actually like the road from Antium...you made the connection with fewer roads since Antium is connected...nice

road on sheep was unnecessary.

Now you can chop the PH NW of Antium and then road the tile and the tile 1S of Rome.. Axes from Rome can move that way.

I would replay last turn as I think you can 2pop worker last turn for good OF.

I would move one ir tw0 of those Axes NW toward Arabia. He can step on that grass hill to get a view of the city to see what is in there. If Sal settles between you and Mecca it is going to make things a lot harder so you need to keep an eye on him.

Still need to focus EPs on HC

 

[CGQ]

Adding that i believe copper or not for Sally is unimportant,
Axes as defenders might actually be weaker than his prot. Archers (and more expensive).
(unless waiting for Praets, but i think Axes would do on Emp)

POT first might have been best since commerce is an issue...Rome and pigs city can get some cottages eventually.

Yep, not opposed to an Axe rush. You can mostly chop them them out. The first Arab city has the copper anyway so once you take that hopefully he's done with metals. It's a long walk so make so it is all or nothing, so make sure you have a reasonable stack.

As My mentioned early, don't road over river. Road 1NW of Rome and then on so Axes can move 2 tiles. A third worker would be nice as well to help with roads and chops. Haven't look at new save yet so not sure how things look for that.

edit: okay took a look

Your spawn busting is very poor this go round, and you still have a warrior in copper city

good you have a second worker but two bad you did not 2 pop whip it earlier into an axe.

actually like the road from Antium...you made the connection with fewer roads since Antium is connected...nice

road on sheep was unnecessary.

Now you can chop the PH NW of Antium and then road the tile and the tile 1S of Rome.. Axes from Rome can move that way.

I would replay last turn as I think you can 2pop worker last turn for good OF.

I would move one ir tw0 of those Axes NW toward Arabia. He can step on that grass hill to get a view of the city to see what is in there. If Sal settles between you and Mecca it is going to make things a lot harder so you need to keep an eye on him.

Still need to focus EPs on HC

Spoiler Played till turn 81 :

I went a couple turns back to research Pottery first then Writing. When is it okay to spawn bust then put my unit back to my city?

I couldn't resist and went ahead to do the axe rush. I mostly chopped them although I whipped a few. I left one back in Cumae to protect it though I probably should've sent him to spawn bust. I took an army of 12 Axes just as Gumbolt suggested and went ahead to attack. I declared Sally on T69 and found he had one Axe and one archer. I only lost one Axe in the attack and decided to raze the city since it's not that great and my economy is crap right now.


I approached the capital and pillaged his copper mine:


I sent the axes up the hill mine for the increase in odds (though in hindsight I probably shouldn't have done that and should've just gone for it) and he reinforced with an archer. Lost about 3 axes and Mecca fell in 975 BC, just as I got writting:


I marched my axes south to take their southernmost town:




Oof, it was on a hill. I lost about 5 axes taking it. I razed it too:


The Arab civilization is destroyed on T79 in 900 BC. I read a lot here that I should only keep my capital and raze other cities but come to realize maybe I should've kept Damascus, since it has the corn, sheep and crabs. Either way, is 900 BC good for an axe-rush? Could I have taken him much sooner?

My tech path this go around was Pottery -> Hunting -> Writting -> Alphabet

I'll probably replay it (even from beginning if I have to) and see if I can take Sally even faster. Also, Simple Machine, how did you have writting down to 5 turns away on T60? I was still around 10-11 turns away, and I'd really love to improve my tech speed

I know I'm going really fast here but I'll likely go back and replay a bunch of parts, since I really want to learn. Thank you everyone for all the input! Never knew there was so much to this game, it's really complex

Edit: I'm definitely going to replay it. I forgot to EP on HC. What's the purpose of putting EP on him?

 

[Fippy]

Nice
Odds are not increasing when you attack from a hill, only defenders get those bonuses.
Usually it's only worth making an extra step if you would attack from across a river.

Seeing the (former) defenders in Mecca, i can confirm that leaving copper for protective AIs is better.
3 Axes + 1 Spear are much weaker than 4 protective Archers (and also more expensive, which can mean 1 defender less).

Bit confused why you razed his last hill city, not bad with corn and shared clams or sheep?

Cumae, never stop working super food like Pigs cos of unhappy.
You can use pop for so many things, like whipping a library soon (probably 2 pop) and then using 2 scientists.

Spoiler :

While the empty hill looks bad, and a mine would be better, you should rather use this setup to gain 13 more library than dropping pigs.

 

[Anysense]

By the look of it you spent a lot of time moving around Saladin's territory. Always seek to act faster - the longer AI is at war the more units it will build. In particular avoid staying in a city's first ring, because it prompts AI to whip units for protection immediately. They even cold-whip if they can. It would be optimal to approach Medina from SE and take ceasefire after capturing it.

 

[lymond]

yeah the approach on Medina was bizarre. Step just SE of the city and no river.

Yep, Damascus was a keeper.

Focus EPs usually on a strong techer like Mansa. HC is strong -stronger than Sal and ..well..you killed him. Eventually you can start seeing what they are teching. Can help a lot with tech and trade decisions.

As Any said, ceasefires can be of benefit since you can attack again as soon as you want. Only HC here and he doesn't like Sal. (If you are going to DOW a target multiple times do be aware of their relationship to other AIs)

Anyway, if you can ceasefire immediately, the AI will usually stop building units everywhere.

 

[pigswill]

Killing Saladin will make tech trading much harder pre-optics.

 

[lymond]

Killing Saladin will make tech trading much harder pre-optics.

pigs!

True dat...but if HC spreads his religion and with Monarchy bonus and trades, he might get him to Friendly sooner than later..that will help some.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay that is how to do it! I wouldn't of razed all those cities either. Medina could of worked 3-4 river cottages.

I would be using some of those full strength axes for fog busting.

You may also want to resettle some of those cities you razed. 4 cities for 850bc is slightly low. Normally if you keep the better cities you would have 5-6 cities. You want 7 or so at least by 1ad.

A workboat to get coastal trade routes would be good. I can't see any easy land routes to do this. Would really help the economy.

Why is Antium not running the 2f4h copper tile?
Rome could be using the sheep for faster growth, 2t vs 3t. I wonder if all those hammers should go into a settler? In which case consider keeping mine for 1 turn. I think 1-2 more chops could speed up the settler.
Mecca is using the unimprove copper. Maybe 3f2c tile instead.
Cumae could be running pigs too. A chop here would allow a 2 pop whip on library. Not ideal outside borders. (Barb risk and lower hammers.)

Overall for me you need 2-3 more settlers here. Question of how to do it? Spam from capital and chop forest or split up with another city? Medina?

I think you have built more cottages than you can actually work here.

Happiness is also a long term thought, Monarchy would be nice. Mids seems unlikely. Calendar? Hmmm

 

[Simple Machine]

My tech path this go around was Pottery -> Hunting -> Writting -> Alphabet

I'll probably replay it (even from beginning if I have to) and see if I can take Sally even faster. Also, Simple Machine, how did you have writting down to 5 turns away on T60? I was still around 10-11 turns away, and I'd really love to improve my tech speed

I know I'm going really fast here but I'll likely go back and replay a bunch of parts, since I really want to learn. Thank you everyone for all the input! Never knew there was so much to this game, it's really complex

Edit: I'm definitely going to replay it. I forgot to EP on HC. What's the purpose of putting EP on him?

@CGQ, we had the same tech path, I just never went hunting. After AG - BW - Wheel I went directly AH - Pottery - Writing. I think we settled the pig city in the same place, 1S of pigs, so it wasn't going to be using the deer anytime soon.

As lymond mentioned, getting +4 EP on HC as soon as you meet him is important since he will be a potent rival long-term.

In my experience, it's good to keep conquered cities even this early, unless they're really crappy. Economy will tank for a bit, but you can build cottages and pull yourself back up.

 

[Anysense]

And don't forget to take Saladin's last worker before you take his last city. Workers don't grow on trees, you know.