My first Shadow Game (Immortal)

[zahoo]

[Edit: T0 save attached]

Greetings!

Short introduction: I am from Hungary and I have been playing Civ 4 basically since the original vanilla release. I had shorter and longer breaks but, from time to time, I return to this beautiful and time-consuming activity of playing this legedary game. I have tried Civ 5 ad Civ 6 as well, which both are great games, but in my eyes Civ 4 is still on top of an unreachable peak.

During the years I have slowly worked my way up on the difficulties and I would say I have become a stable Emperor player - if I'm not impatient and don't make stupid decisions, I can more or less win the game (not necessarily in the most effective way, but Emperor is more forgiving), except in some extremely unfortunate conditions. I have also managed to snag a few immortal wins, but only with great maps/starts and easier-to-play-with civs (Inca, Netherlands).

I have also been reading these forums for a good amount of years and finally (better late than never!) have decided to register and play a shadow game. I have already learnt a lot from these threads (shadow games, NCs, etc) and honestly I am amazed by the deep knowledge of some of the posters. I have also watched hundreds of hours of Lain's deity videos, but that's still a different universe

Now, let's get to the business: I rolled a completely random game using basic settings:

Spoiler Roll settings :

Standard
Pangea
NH/NE
Diplo turned off (I REALLY hate the AP, sorry)
everything else standard

Spoiler Pacal :

Spoiler Start :

Initial toughts:

• Well, a good civ again, but I think it does not really matter for this run.
• Warrior has a few choices to reveal some more land: 1NW, 1SE or 1S (for the southern coast). I generally like to reveal as many tiles as possible so I would choose 1S here.
• My first instinct would be to settle 1W on the ivory. This will make the corn shareable by another city 1SE of the corn, which seems to be a land tile. However, whatever the warrior reveals can result in a different decision.
• I would not set any long-term strategy just now, but GLH or elepult can be an option, but we'll see what we bump into.

Thank you in advance for the replies! I haven't used this kind of forum for a while, so please forgive me if the post has not been made technically or aesthetically perfect yet.

 

[pigswill]

Settling 1W on Elephants is the obvious move, I'm not sure what the warrior could reveal in one turn in any direction that would persuade you to settle elsewhere (2h city tile and wet corn in bfc).

Welcome to CFC

 

[5tephen]

I'd move warrior SE to see what’s on the green tile that won’t be in BFC if you settle on ivory. Don’t think moving warrior 1S will reveal that tile. Settling on ivory seems best unless there’s something good on that green tile. Turn zero decisions are one of my weaknesses though…

 

[krikav]

Welcome to the forums @zahoo !

You will probably learn to manage AP sooner or later too, but I don't think that setting should change things much.


I like your idea of settlement 1W on the ivory. I would have that as the default option. But in that case, I don't really like 1S.
If you want to move 1W with the settler, the key info is what you leave behind with such a move. Moving the warrior south-east would gain info about at least one tile that you stand to lose. So thats how I would move. (So I agree with @5tephen here).
Perhaps 1E with warrior reveals more since it's a hill? Not sure. I would probably just rush SE with the warrior without thinking too much about it though.


Elepult is something that I think about every time I see ivory, in fact every time I see jungle too. "Might there be elephants here...?" War elephants are so good that it's almost criminal.
You say Maya and Pacal are good, what do you think are good about them and how could you leverage that, especially related to the current situation you find yourself in?

GLH...? Is there something other than just the fact that we have a coastal start and some seafood that makes you even think about that? It's not at all the first thing I think about when I start a pangea map.
But in coastal starts it's always good to look at demographics and check the land parameter to estimate how stiff the competition is for GLH just in case.

 

[zahoo]

Spoiler Demographics :

Spoiler T1 :

Moved warrior 1SE, the "lost tile" is grassland w/o forest. Suspicious, can be a strategic. Possible future city location 2E of the warrior to take the fish. To the west it seems to be the end of a peninsula and unfortunately it seems that the sheep can't ever be worked, only settled on if it's worth it, probably only if there is more seafood/other small island to the further west.

Next I would move warrior NE to continue scouting east. Techwise I would say Agri -> BW. The wet corn is a no-brainer and while BW is underway the grassland hill 2S of the capital can be mined. The 10-turn worker is quite juicy due to the other ivory being 1F2H. Other than that, I would not think further than this just yet.

Spoiler Thoughts on Pacal :

What I liked about Pacal in general is that his traits are strong for many situations. For example, with coastal start like this I usually go for GLH + Colossus combination with 5-6 coastal cities, which, together with the financial bonus results in a serious tech rate, at least for some time. I also like expansive due to the cheap granaries and that the health bonus allows more flexible city placement (fresh water is less important). I do not say, however, that I would immediately take this path just seeing the start, because even a few turns of scoutng can reveal a more advantageous use for those precious chops.

 

[krikav]

Have to check the demographics T1 to see if there is competition for GLH, thats when the AIs have settled their capital and you can see how many land tiles they have. If the average land is 9000, you know every other AI is completely landlocked.
Looks like there are some offshore islands, so maybe GLH could come into play after all?

Some of the thoughts I had in mind when I asked open questions:

* Pacal is expansive, so getting 4 hammers in total in the first ring is important.
* The ball court comes at construction, looks like it can be nice synnergy with a construction attack.
* The holkan doesn't require strategic resources, so even if we find nothing else, we have a decent unit to pre-build paired with catapults+elephants.
* Both expansive and financial tilts us toward pottery early on with a few riverside tiles to cottage.

I like BW first here. Sad sheep is sad, but by the looks of the surroundings AH could come very late in any case.

 

[pigswill]

You could farm the other elephant for 2f2h1c.
Fogbusting should be less of a problem with a coastal start.
You need to explore a bit before deciding on a plan but worker first and tech Ag>BW gives times for local exploration.

 

[lymond]

Welcome!

Post saves....starts and reporting. Some folks may play along with you as well.

Occasionally, GLH can have some value on Pangaea, especially if you have some islands nearby. However, as krik mentioned, it would not be a priority at all. Same with Colossus, but it you have copper, it could be worth some fail gold.

Note that Mutal culture will extend to the fish at some point, so city on the hill E of it won't need a monument. May not be your first city anyway and you can wait to settle close to the 2nd border pop.

 

[krikav]

...even a few turns of scoutng can reveal a more advantageous use for those precious chops.

btw, this I really like. Understanding that everything we do in civ comes at an opportunity cost, and that oftentimes alot of good options need to be weighed against each other, is for sure a key insight.

 

[Heathcliff]

Better to tech agriculture than bronze working.

 

[zahoo]

It seems like everybody has some water tiles (that includes lakes I guess) next to their cap, so at least a few of them are coastal.

Spoiler T1 demo :

Moved the warrior towards the east and took a fogbusting position, no AIs met just yet. The marked city location seems obvious at some point (probably 3rd city), otherwise the fish would not be workable. My thought for the second city is either 1N or 1NW of the warrior. I tend towards 1N for the 1st ring corn (dry) and more land blocked. 1NW would have the advantage of being able to share the capical corn. The south-east of the peninsula will be scouted by another guy built after the worked, which can alter the decisions a bit.

Spoiler T4 :

Save is attached.

 

[krikav]

Better to tech agriculture than bronze working.

Ofcourse! The 6-yielding corn has highest priority. Agri->BW. But by the time Agri is done, we might know more.

 

[krikav]

@zahoo Yeah, that includes lakes. So we know one AI has 8 and one AI has 7 land tiles.
Average of all 6 is 7.833 and 6 times 7.833 is 47 so they have 47 land tiles all together.
The 4 who are in the middle of the pack thus has 47 - (8+7) = 32 tiles, divided by 4 thats 8.
I would be suprised if all those 5 who has 8 have a lake in their capital, so I would assess 2-3 AIs starting coastal. I would say thats neither bad nor good for GLH.
Ofcourse, this comes from my experience on deity, which is totally off on other difficulties.


I agree on your thoughts about second city, but I would have wanted to reveal that coastal strip with that first guy and then I would have returned to where he is to fogbust the entire area where second/third city will likely land.
Would be so annoying to have a barb archer spawn there just because you want to see a tiny bit more up north.

 

[zahoo]

Since whatever is near the south-east of the peninsula does not affect any immediate actions and otherwise nothing could be really done apart from waiting for the worker to complete I played a few more turns:

Spoiler T8 - met Willem :

Spoiler T9 - Agri completed, started BW :

Spoiler Current situation :

Willem already knows others as it seems. I put my points on him because he is usually a strong techer.

I think the obvious thing is now that the worker goes to improve the corn then any excess turns until BW will be put to farm the ivory, as he can reach it faster.

I also agree on the importance of Pottery asap, the financial riverside cottages are quite strong early on, but that can be considered after BW.

 

[Fish Man]

It seems like everybody has some water tiles (that includes lakes I guess) next to their cap, so at least a few of them are coastal.

Spoiler T1 demo :

View attachment 602078

Moved the warrior towards the east and took a fogbusting position, no AIs met just yet. The marked city location seems obvious at some point (probably 3rd city), otherwise the fish would not be workable. My thought for the second city is either 1N or 1NW of the warrior. I tend towards 1N for the 1st ring corn (dry) and more land blocked. 1NW would have the advantage of being able to share the capical corn. The south-east of the peninsula will be scouted by another guy built after the worked, which can alter the decisions a bit.

Spoiler T4 :

View attachment 602079

Save is attached.

Got the t0 save?

 

[krikav]

You only have time to either farm the ivory or mine the hill before BW, looks like finishing that tile and starting to chop will like up good.

I would rather want to mine the grassland hill, than to farm the ivory.
True that it takes one more turn to get to the hill, but farming takes one more turn than mining so equal there too.
The mine will be with you for a loong time, where as you likely want to camp the elephant (lovely tile with Fin).
Also, the unimproved ivory is still a rather nice 3yield tile with coin already, you will likely use that tile no matter what. If you mine the hill you got a third decent tile.
Consider total yield at pop3.
Corn+Farmed Ivory+ForestedGrassland
Corn+Mine+Unimproved Ivory
It's dead equal, 11 hammer/food toward a settler and a bonus coin from the ivory.

Also, the grassland hill might be copper.

Ivory wins out only if you plan to stagnate at pop2 as far as I see it.

 

[zahoo]

Got the t0 save?

Here it is.

 

[lymond]

Here it is.

feel free to toss that into the OP so folks can find it easy

 

[pigswill]

krikav: good point on hill vs ivory farm.

Good idea to check the south coast for seafood as it could affect your dotmap.

 

[krikav]

krikav: good point on hill vs ivory farm.

Good idea to check the south coast for seafood as it could affect your dotmap.

Yeah, I think so, not only seafood but also whats on the other side of that strait. Settlement on the cows might be an option.
But in reality... perhaps not so high odds for anything that could show up, that would change the dotmap @zahoo has scetched up.