My first Shadow Game (Immortal)

[krikav]

@zahoo

I don't approve of the worker micro this turnset really.
The first worker spent first one turn moving up to finish a chop that would have been finished in time to speed up the settler anyway, so this must be regarded as a completely lost turn.
Then both workers moved to the ivory losing a turn in transit each.
Now they are both badly placed to join the settler in movement toward city#2.

This is how I think you should have done:

Spoiler :

Red worker finishes his chop, then moves into that forest and chops it down, then camps the ivory.
Yellow worker moves into that forest and chops it, then moves together with settler to improve the corn in second city.
This way of movement is much more efficient in terms of worker turns. It might get the ivory improved slower, but that is probably worth it.

After this, both workers chop more for their cities. Second city will likely build workboat for city#3 and a holkan, while capital will perhaps produce another worker, then a workboat for it's clams and then a settler for city#3.

 

[zahoo]

Replayed those turns with the chopping pattern. I many times have used more workers to chop one forest but really, it seems like a waste of their turns by moving into the forest. I have probably slowed myself down many times with this...

Spoiler T34 :

Capital finished settler and built another worker who is just finished. Selected a settler as a placeholder for the overflow. When fishing is done I will probably switch to slow-build a WB, while growing to size 4 or even 5, then finish the settler. City 3 can chop WB for itself even.

The other guy started to improve the ivory.

Settler went for the dry corn spot, followed by the worker. Founded Lakamba, started to improve the dry corn (this worker had 1 idle turn tho) and selected a holkan as a placeholder. It will be probably needed as there is a barb archer roaming around that area for a while. Now he is fogbusting for us so no rush killing him. Southern warrior will push to the north because I think the tile SW of cows is busted now.

Fishing is almost done, but the third city should be settled T50 the soonest so the fish is already improvable.

 

[krikav]

Hmm.. well that might be a problem. You got overflow now and you don't want/need the settler for some time to come.
You could do the trick where you simply clear the queue (push 1 while having the city selected), that way you can keep the overflow rolling until fishing is done and get it into a workboat for the clams.
Just make sure to only work food/commerce tiles (empty riverside) during those two turns though, as every natural hammer generated those turns is lost forever.

The fresh worker is perhaps best utilized by running to second city and assisting with chopping? Holkan is needed (or two?) and a workboat could be built for fish city. And a monument wouldn't hurt either.


And regarding the double-worker inside forest, It's not the end of the world. If you chop with a lone worker you chop a forest with 4 workerturns. If you chop with two workers it takes 5 workerturns.
You get 20 hammers regardless, so in one case you get 5 hammers per workerturn and in the other you get 4 hammers per workerturn.
So one could say it's 20% less efficient?
One way to look at it anyway.
Another way to look at it is to simply go with the 5hammers/workerturn evaluation, and say that you only got 15 hammers from that forest as you lost potential hammers from the wasted workerturn.

Sorry that the worker was idle one turn in transit to the corn. I hadn't calculated that far ahead, just knew roughly at what time he should start to move there..

 

[krikav]

We should really have more people joining in and advising, entering a new phase in the game now where right/wrong is getting even more blurred out and having multiple ideas floating around at the same time can be very educational.

 

[pigswill]

Sounds a complicated trick to clear build queue to save hammers for something you want but I can see its benefits. Its seems better to delay city#3 until fish is available inside borders, it might be better still to have a WB on the fish tile when city#3 is founded. Certainly first WB is for capital clams, you could consider second WB before settler (if its got spare time to travel it could explore north a couple of turns). On the other hand maybe another fogbusting/exploring warrior on t'mainland is more important.

 

[zahoo]

Hmm.. well that might be a problem. You got overflow now and you don't want/need the settler for some time to come.
You could do the trick where you simply clear the queue (push 1 while having the city selected), that way you can keep the overflow rolling until fishing is done and get it into a workboat for the clams.
Just make sure to only work food/commerce tiles (empty riverside) during those two turns though, as every natural hammer generated those turns is lost forever.

I know I can clear the queue - did that many times in my past games -, but how long can I do that and not build anything? Theoretically forever? If so, I will just save the overflow for the WB then grow to size 5. Probably we can get another WB for some scouting then going down for the fish when that comes into play. I want to time that so it is standing there ready at T50, along with the settler for city 3.

Lakamba will build a holkan (with chopping). Probably will chop the northern tiles so if some barb archer managed to slip past for some reason (should not happen, but you can get trolled sometimes), he would not have any def bonus and easier to clear. I don't think monument is necessary just yet, because AH will not come into play for a while. Maybe for fogbusting, but we might be lucky to get a religion from somebody by that time - currently slim chance, but we will see.

I also miscalculated the turns for the worker at Lakamba, because I didn't take into account that the city tile had a forest and the settler could only settle it after the turn he moved in. I can live with 1 idle turn though, not sure if it was avoidable.

 

[krikav]

You can theoretically do it forever, but I wouldn't recommend that. You do lose the natural hammers every turn by this process, so I don't think it's a trick you should use other than really short term, here I think it makes sense to do it, to get the overflow hammers into the workboat.
There is alot of benefit of getting the workboat out asap to get the clams going quickly. The extra food will get you to pop5 (or pop6 for a 3pop whip of a settler) that much faster.

 

[zahoo]

You can theoretically do it forever, but I wouldn't recommend that. You do lose the natural hammers every turn by this process, so I don't think it's a trick you should use other than really short term, here I think it makes sense to do it, to get the overflow hammers into the workboat.
There is alot of benefit of getting the workboat out asap to get the clams going quickly. The extra food will get you to pop5 (or pop6 for a 3pop whip of a settler) that much faster.

With the clams improved Mutal will have 5 decent tiles to work, and the current happy cap is 5 w/o a garrison. I probably don't want to whip the next settler (haven't made the switch to slavery yet anyway) before granaries, especially cheap granaries.

 

[civac]

You can whip the settler and overflow into the granary so that it finishes one turn after the settler.

 

[zahoo]

Spoiler T42 :

Got Fishing, started TW, then built the WB in 1 turn swapping tiles accordingly and got some overflow. Slow-built the 2nd WB which will scout around the small northern island then head to the fish. It will exactly reach it in T49. Mined the other hill SE of Mutal (it will give the 5th tile to work at size 5). I didn't want to leave it be only for the chance of forest regrowth, because right then there was nothing immediately useful to chop into. At size 5 Mutal will switch to settler, aided by a chop (probably 1W of the city).

Improved the dry corn at Lakamba then chopped the 2 forests N and NW, into a Holkan. S chop will go into a second Holkan probably, then the city will slow-build settlers/workers for a while. Workers will start a road to the capital when TW is finished.

Danced around a bit with 2 barb archers near Lakhamba, the holkans will push forward more mercilessly.

Next tech is going to be Pottery, for granaries and cottaging. Capital granary will probably be whipped, I plan to switch to slavery right after the settler is done.

 

[krikav]

@zahoo I have had a hard drive failure and been struggling to get the computer up and running again for most of the day, don't have civ4 installed yet so can't peek around in the save but some stray thoughts just reading what you write and looking at your screenshot:


I think that I personally would have chopped more, but you have a point that there might not be that much more useful to chop into.

I would have gotten a monument in Lakamba to reach more forest and to get the cows (even unimproved a 3F tile is nice).
Sinking a chop or two into SH is also a possibility, but if things are really rolling along too quickly, then maybe city3 should have been settled somethere further out?

You say you would want to whip a granary.. Have you forgotten that you are playing an EXP leader here? Finishing the granary naturally in the capital after a settler or worker whip should be super easy.
I like the new mine, that tile will be reachable by fish city too.
Also good planning with the workboat, first using it to scout and then making it in time for city#3, very nice.

Is Mutal reaching pop5 without a city garisson? WIll run into happines troubles then.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

I think the WB timing problems stem from going hunting over fishing; could have immediately put those hammers into a WB, and given the sole dry corn in cap, the clam is worth prioritizing I think, especially given the early BW meaning food for whipping is valuable already. Since the mine and ivory give extra hammers but you are considering forgoing production for 2 turns, you can see the benefit was a littl less for those worker turns.

Nonetheless, it seems you may have been able to get fishing 1 turn faster by working some riverside tiles instead of the mine for the last couple turns; apologies if that's incorrect, I havent loaded the game to test it.

 

[konata_LS]

Welcome to CFC! Glad to see people start shadow games.

As I play at a level much lower than yours, some tricks or strategies working well on lower difficulties might become counter-productive on IMM+, I can't give you any useful advice. But reading others' shadow games, like this one, teaches me many things. I've never thought about optimising worker turns and managing overflow - maybe that's why I still struggle at Monarch .

It looks like you have a tough neighbour... WvO can plot at pleased, is difficult to get Friendly, and is often one of the biggest threat to Lib race. The good side is he's usually willing to trade techs and resources. Having Willem as neighbour is much better than starting next to Shaka or Monty, though.

Good luck for your game

 

[zahoo]

@krikav
Capital has 6 happiness due to ivory, at pop 5 it will get 6 unhappy faces, I think it will be still OK. I don't really like to build monuments, those hammers have a better use. With the 2 holkans pushing out, we might find more appealing city locations for City #3, although I don't want to go too far just yet, no need for too high maintenance costs. I may go for 4 cities (1 more settler before the granary) right away though if it can be justified,

@NothingBesideRemains
Fortunately capital corn is wet, that's why I postponed the WB a bit.

@konata_LS
Yeah, Willem can be a nasty techer and his expansion can be annoying due to his creative trait. If he comes too closer, we have ivory to resolve the issues though...

 

[krikav]

@zahoo Do you have updated saves from T23 and T34? I'm abit lost at whats the main path now that you replayed turns a few times.
I'm abit curious to see how T23 -> T42 with fish->hunt and more aggressive chopping would compare.

 

[zahoo]

@krikav
Somehow I didn't manage to save at T23, but I have the saves from T34 and T42.

 

[lymond]

Agree with krik...gran will be very fast in Mutal and a waste to whip. Just make sure Gran times to finish before Mutal's food bucket hits half way point or you, if not, you might use the avoid growth trick for one turn to let gran store surplus food.

I'd really like that warrior near Lak to be N spawnbusting.

Hokan could be whip at any time. Monument woulda been good there and if you had started that earlier to get up to about 8H into production, the forest chop this turn woulda completed it. Anyway, I'd put the chop into the monument. Unless needed you can store hammers in the Holkan afterwards for awhile and then 1pop right before Pottery finishes, so OF could go into Gran. Or do that with Monument but I think you want the monument completed asap.

OF in Henge is good, then start a warrior next turn in Mutal to completion (times with growth at 8 base H) and then start settler.

 

[krikav]

Ok, I tried to shadow from my old T23 save (think it was roughly similar) and did two checkpoints at T34 and T42.

I played this a few times to check for different timings, so this is probably as close to optimal as one could ask for but not really natural play.

Spoiler Screenshots :

Went for fish first before hunting, and got the clams netted 2 turns after the settler was out, then the third worker while improving ivory.
Worked 2F1H or 2F1C tiles instead of ivory a turn or two once the worker was done to reach pop4 faster too.

Once worker was in position to farm the corn, I decided to delay that 2 turns to finish the chop (had one chop done already) and work 1F2H tile 3 turns then the unimproved corn a turn to reach 30H.
I don't think the monument there can be considered bad, it brings 4 new forests under culture, gains the cows (3F tile even unimproved) and helps a bit with fogbusting.
If it was worth 2 turns slower corn... thats debatable.

City#2 only had one worker the entire time, capitals new worker stayed put and aided with chopping.
Capitals two workers will finish those two roads then the two of them can finish the chop and that should finish the settler exacly. Would settle third city before boat is there but thats OK I think.
This run is ahead in commerce abit, likely due to earlier improved clams.

 

[zahoo]

I have read through the comments, opened the saves and analised the process. I think overall Fishing before Hunting was more efficient growth-wise. I also accept that the monument is Lakamba was reasonable, probably I shouldn't totally ignore them in the future, like I did before. Played a few turns afterwards (from T42 save).

Spoiler T47 :

The very next turn after loading, we meet Peter (via his WB to the NW):

Finished the roads with the workers, then sent W worker uphill to build a mine (so that city #3 will have a good tile to work until the fish gets online), middle worker to build the last road section, and E worker to chop for Lakamba (1NW).

Settler finished, started on granary. Moved the settler to the hill so that next turn he can settle the fish city. WB will get there 1 turn earlier than the fish gets into culture. I think this comes from the different build times from your save @krikav. 1 turn being idle is OK though (the city has a decent tile to work), if I went scouting more north it would be delayed a bit, which I don't really want.

Once middle worker finished the last road I moved him to the river plains to start a cottage. Capital has +5 food, it can be justified I believe.

Selected AH as placeholder. Not 100% sure about it, we only get the cow from it, since the sheep will never be worked - maybe settled some time for the +1 health, but we are expansive and have a ton of health resources so I don't think that's even close to an issue right now. On the other hand, horse (or no horse) reveal might be useful now.
My other thought is Sailing, for lighthouses (only +2 food empirewise as of now, though) and instant connections for coastal settlements.

Capital tile assignments. Granary will finish at 15/30 food. When the cottage is done, it will be worked instead of the 1F2H. Probably warrior after the granary to counter the unhappiness so we can work one more cottage (which the worker will build probably S of corn).

 

[krikav]

Read all the ramblings and opened all the saves and analysed?! Such a keen student.
Unfortunatly, I don't have time (or rather, energy) to return that favour right now, so a quick reply based only on what I see in your post.


I think I would want AH anyway, the cow is nice, pottery is in and everything is taken care of. AH->Writing feels like the natural progression imho.
Ofcourse, if you could find Willys culture along the coast somehow, and he would tech writing so you could open borders with him, then sailing would be really sweet. But thats a longshot.
But your objection to the usefullness of AH I think is correct. It's just that there isn't any other pressing needs right at the moment.

I think you where abit ill prepared for the pottery discovery...? Ideally you should have one or two chops landing in each city once pottery is in. This has much higher priority than laying down cottages or building mines imho.

You say you want to make the mine to give the city "a good tile", but in alot of ways a 2F1H tile is a better tile than 1F3H.
The mine is nice to finish the granary if you only land one chop, but apart from that crucial part of infrastructure, that mine should probably only be worked when stagnating on workers/settlers.