Myth01- Training Day- Regent

[CommandoBob]

Spoiler :

Using the river as possible surrounding indians, also would help in advance towards chokepoint and top of all, river is good, even if it is bit far from capital courthouse can do wonders there... Also, it would be recovering point for our attack force, and will provide defense if we will fail the attack (due rng god(S))

I think this is a good place for a city after we take out India. I don't expect India's military to be all that strong; at best I expect them to be average compared to us. The AI will spread units throughout all the cities; we will be attacking with most of our forces at one point and can overpower the defenders. Even if we have weaken defenders, I think they will be able to heal in the field and be safe from counterattack. It is a bit early for Horseback Riding to be a problem (I hope!).

Some of India's cities will be rather large; one good way to reduce their size is to build workers and settlers. If a city is at size 5 or 6, we can whip out a settler, which cost us a maximum of two citizens, and build the settler, reducing the city size by 3 or 4. This makes the remaining citizens fewer and allows the pure Chinese to outgrow the Indians.

Spoiler :

Getting luxury to trade, would be slavery town. Build upon desert tile to maximize use of that tile.

We do want this luxury but the need is not urgent. Trading resources/luxuries is rather dangerous at this point in the game. If we have a harbor and the other civ has a harbor, we can trade along the coast. But, if that trade route is only one tile wide at some point, and a barbarian ship occupys that tile over the IBT, we get penalized for breaking the trade route. In turn, that makes it harder for us to trade per-turn items later in the game. We can still buy per-turn items; we just can't sell them any longer.

Do we need two sources of one luxury? Yes, we do. Do we need it right now (in the next 20 turns or so)? No, not really.

Spoiler :

For defensive purpose. Positsion number 1 (on hill) would create us a town as a choke point, but we are not able to counter attack there, if hills continue in large scale. But it would eliminate (almost) danger to our core.

We do need a city up here for defense and it will need Walls to be an even better defensive position. But for that position to work, the other city (Dot #2) needs to be built, so that we can shuttle units from one city to the next.

Overall, I don't disagree with your city site selection. They are all good sites and I am sure we will build those cities. But for now, our focus seems to be on taking out India and growing ourselves by making India smaller.

 

[Yahya]

...and a barbarian ship occupys that tile over the IBT...

This is a very interesting discussion, start to finish, and I am just trying to absorb it all right now.

But, I must ask: what is "IBT"? I've tried to figure it out, but it's not making any sense to me.

 

[CommandoBob]

Oops, my bad.

IBT = In Between Turn; where the AI does all it's stuff; moving, attacking other AI, wanting to talk to us about something generally useless, that sort of thing. Everything that happens between the time you hit the space bar to move to the next turn and the time that you can move your first unit. City builds are completed on the IBT; city growth is calculated on the IBT also.

 

[Yahya]

Well, it's not a bad. I just didn't know it.

That's a good acronym for that period. I would have just used a bunch of words to describe it.

I didn't realize that city growth is calculated then. I suppose if I looked at it, I would realize it though. I think I figured it happened at the beginning of the player turn, but six in one...

You've also said that city builds are completed on the IBT. Could you please clarify that? I must be missing some aspect of that, as I thought once you lay down a settler, the city is built, even if it is the middle of your turn.

 

[Northen Wolf]

For slave town, I ment down that is used to produce workers, we will need them and if they come from the center of our empire, why not. (slave town = town that ONLY produces workers. We need atleast 1 per 8 cities (Minimum in my games...)

How off are my calcs: (I have not done anything like this b4)
City on desert tile:
1) 2 food 1 shield from city center.
2) 1 free citizen who will work on irrigated plains tile (2 food one shield)

so total 4 food and 2 shields per turn
One citizen eats one food per turn, so we get + 2 fpt

Town to grow from size 1 to 2 means 10 food units(or 20?). and town will grow to size 2 once it is ready to produce a worker...

I assume I am wrong, as I never have manage to create computer managed slave town... If I chose town for worker producion it was placed on map by accident, not by intention to make one.

As far as I've noticed worker town (or slave town) should be located in center of empire and/or in center of most improving needed area... I needed least 4-5 slavetowns to keep my workers 2 per city...

Also if I use captured town(s) to produce settlers, those settlers should be put into use if india is destroyed OR should be built far away from India, to prevent flip.

Also thing I've learnt is do not ever count that stack can take a city, do not ever count that you can capture enemy cities, prepare for worst, if it goes better than expected, good! If not, well, we were prepared.

 

[Yahya]

...Town to grow from size 1 to 2 means 10 food units(or 20?)...

I am fairly certain that a town requires 20 food to grow, unless it has a granary, under which circumstance it requires 10.

EDIT: So you are right on both counts, somewhat.

 

[Bucephalus]

You've also said that city builds are completed on the IBT. Could you please clarify that? I must be missing some aspect of that, as I thought once you lay down a settler, the city is built, even if it is the middle of your turn.

lurker's comment:

CBob is referring to what an already established city is building

 

[Bucephalus]

If a city is at size 5 or 6, we can whip out a settler,

lurker's comment:

Remember though, that Settler will be Indian, and will transfer any unhappiness to any new city that it may found.

 

[Yahya]

CBob is referring to what an already established city is building

Aha. Thanks!

 

[Northen Wolf]

I am fairly certain that a town requires 20 food to grow, unless it has a granary, under which circumstance it requires 10.

EDIT: So you are right on both counts, somewhat.

So, if we build granary in there and town pops onto size 2, then decrease on size one, will the 10 food units be saved so next time town can start growing from 10 food units and produce new worker and continue that kinda circle...

 

[Yahya]

Yes, I believe that is right. If the food box is empty when the granary is complete, the next growth happens at 20 food, which is 10 turns in your example, with 2 surplus per turn.

If we had, say 12 food in the food box at granary completion, then growth comes in 4 more turns (8 food), and then every 5 turns thereafter.

If I am not mistaken, a worker takes 10 shields to make (is that right?). If we have 2 shields per turn, and there is no corruption, we get a worker every 5 turns with a full granary.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Just that i was thinking of, we will need to keep 1.5 (china is industrial civ right?) workers per city. And from my experience we need worker towns there where workers are most needed (useless to build workers where you do not need them and it takes like 4 turns them to move into positsion. ATM we need core to be improved, but quite soon, India(s) areas too...

EDIT: Tested that on similar map, made by map editor.(i'm quite sure i read the tiles correctly) It will take quite long to build granary and it (slave town) will have one wasted shield - means we have to choose other place or we have to build courthouse there(thats quite an investment).

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment:

For slave town, I ment down that is used to produce workers . . . .

When people refer to "slaves," they ordinarily mean workers from a civ other than your own. The term ordinarily used for this is "worker factory," or "worker pump."

How off are my calcs: (I have not done anything like this b4)
City on desert tile:
1) 2 food 1 shield from city center.
2) 1 free citizen who will work on irrigated plains tile (2 food one shield)

so total 4 food and 2 shields per turn
One citizen eats one food per turn, so we get + 2 fpt

Each citizen eats 2 food, not 1. Also, a worker is 10 shields and it takes 20 food to fill the bin (10 if you have a granary)

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Buce, ya ever heard of the multi quote button?

As to the barbarian ship thing, that's just one of many things that can interrupt trade that you will be blamed for, despite it being an event totally outside your control. Other examples include:

-It's a land route, and the road is destroyed by pillaging or volcano
-You have to go through CivA to get to CivB, who your trading with, and they go to war, blocking your route.
-If you're doing a per turn deal to a civ that involves anything other than gold, you'll take a hit if that civ is destroyed.

 

[ngraner42]

Here are my thoughts for the next turn set. Finish the Barracks and Archers currently under construction. Produce one more Settler out of the capital and settle next 2NE of the fish. The new city will be able to work the fish once the capital's borders expand as well as sharing already improved tiles with the capital. It is also close by and low corruption. Other than that continue producing Archers to wage war on the Indians. Is a stack of Archers all we will need?

I will be able to play Saturday night.

 

[Northen Wolf]

lurker's comment:

Each citizen eats 2 food, not 1. Also, a worker is 10 shields and it takes 20 food to fill the bin (10 if you have a granary)

K, I'll leave calculating for advanced players from nowon...

ngraner42 ideas are not bad either. The spot looks quite good, but has low production...

 

[CommandoBob]

Here are my thoughts for the next turn set. Finish the Barracks and Archers currently under construction. Produce one more Settler out of the capital and settle next 2NE of the fish. The new city will be able to work the fish once the capital's borders expand as well as sharing already improved tiles with the capital. It is also close by and low corruption. Other than that continue producing Archers to wage war on the Indians. Is a stack of Archers all we will need?

Let's look at Beijing in depth before we decide on what to build.

Currently it has 6 shields towards a vArcher, which costs 20 shields. Those shields come from the city core (1 shield), 2 mined BGs (4 sheilds total) and one unimproved BG (1 shield). That vArcher will be built in 3 more turns. In 5 turns the city grows to size 4 and the new citizen can work another unimproved BG to bring in 7 sheilds per turn, which allows us to make vArchers in 3 turns.

Changing the build from vArcher to Settler has an increased cost of 10 shields to 30 shields. We can make that settler in 4 more turns, but then Beijing drops from size 3 to size 1. At size 1 it will produce only 3 shields per turn and any new vArchers will take 7 turns (until the city grows). We can reassign citizens and delay the build for one turn, allowing Beijing to grow to size 4 before it builds the settler and drops down to size 2. Even at size 2, we bring in 5 shields per turn, which gives us vArchers every 4 turns.

Regardless of what we decide to build in Beijing, we will be at war rather soon. And somehow that needs to figure into our plans.

Obviously, I don't think a settler is what we need to build right now. We are going to be fighting India and we need two things to do well in that war; plenty of units and quick movement (ie., roads). Some units will die; some will need to heal and some will need to do guard duty. Ten or fifteen units sounds like a lot, but that stack will diminish as we advance and capture more of India.

If we were to build a settler, it should support our war effort on India, and Northen Wolf's first dot map is excellent for this. We'll need a barracks in that city (probably, unless we capture a barracks from India) so that our units can heal quickly. Just now, looking at his dot-map, I see that the road from Canton to India via Shanghai is just too long. That road crosses a river to enter Shanghai and crosses that same river again to leave Shanghai. Ouch! We would need to road those two tiles due South of Canton to that city-dot in order to get those troops into action faster.

All of this discussion has focused on Beijing. It is our most productive city. Canton makes 3 spt; Nanking and Shanghai make only 2 spt. Canton and Nanking are still making barracks; Shanghai makes a vArcher in 4 turns; the next one is 10 turns later.

It comes down to this rather ugly fact: building a settler in Beijing in the next turnset slows down our unit production and will delay our attack on India.

If that is what we want to do, that's fine. In fact, it might be the best thing to do, since then we would have more time to improve the lands (mine the Wheat and BGs at least, build a road to India for quicker movement to the war front).

Can we do thing differently, say, build a settler in Shanghai or Nanking? Sure. Do we want to? Ah, that is the question.

I will be able to play Saturday night.

Saturday night is fine. There is no need to rush.

 

[Yahya]

How many archers currently exist? That would help with the decision.

But, I tend to agree with CommandoBob. Kill the bastards quickly.

I'd like that path, because it is where I feel I need the most work presently. But, I can see the benefit of delaying for a few turns to build up infrastructure - particularly roads. The barracks will help as well.

I have had a bunch of thoughts while writing this, so I am going into them all below. If these are crazy ideas, please let me know.

Is there a settler already on the way to found that next city? If not, and there is already one in the cue, an extra settler can increase the size of that city, and help us finish a barracks there more quickly, correct? That would advance the healing capability of the nation, so that it is right on the border with India, making the conquest easier.

Additionally, we could also add that extra settler to Calcutta once it is taken, which would dilute the Indian population there, right? It will be a size two city (most likely) when it is taken, and the extra person (or is it two from a settler?) would help even things out. Or would it be that adding our own settler there would make us produce new people from the Chinese population, and thus prevent us decreasing the Indian population? If so, that would be bad, of course, because we want that city loyal.

I also like putting down that city next to Calcutta and building the roads between Canton, Shanghai, New City, and Calcutta because it can help connect Calcutta to our empire, giving access to the silks, which will help things once we get the city under control. We need only build 6 road tiles to accomplish that, as shown in the picture below.

6 road tiles will take 24 worker turns (true?), so the more workers, the merrier.

Spoiler :

 

[CommandoBob]

I have had a bunch of thoughts while writing this, so I am going into them all below. If these are crazy ideas, please let me know.

Is there a settler already on the way to found that next city? If not, and there is already one in the cue, an extra settler can increase the size of that city, and help us finish a barracks there more quickly, correct? That would advance the healing capability of the nation, so that it is right on the border with India, making the conquest easier.

Right now Beijing and Shanghai are building Archers and Canton and Nanking are building barracks. I would have to check the save, but I don't think we have a settler available at the moment.

Additionally, we could also add that extra settler to Calcutta once it is taken, which would dilute the Indian population there, right? It will be a size two city (most likely) when it is taken, and the extra person (or is it two from a settler?) would help even things out. Or would it be that adding our own settler there would make us produce new people from the Chinese population, and thus prevent us decreasing the Indian population? If so, that would be bad, of course, because we want that city loyal.

Calcutta might autoraze. It is only size 1 and it may or may not have any cultural buildings (temple or libary at this point in the game) inside. If it doesn't and it stays at size 2, it will be destroyed when we capture it. If it grows to size 2, our capture will reduce the city size by 1. At size 1 (or any size for that matter), once we capture the city and it starts to grow, any new citizens are ours. At size 2, Calcutta will be 1 Indian and 1 Chinese; at size 3 it will be 1 Indian and 2 Chinese, and so on. In time the Indian will become Chinese, too.

There are several ways to deal with non-native citizens in your cities. The most popular tactic, if the city is over size 1, is just to produce a worker and not allow the city to grow while that worker is being made. The worker will become a non-native worker (ie., slave) which requires no upkeep. Also a good thing to do is to make everyone in the city a scientist or taxman (as we need). The city will starve on the IBT and reduce in size. In a just conquered city ususally both are done; everyone becomes a specialist and no one brings in food and the city is set to build a worker.

I also like putting down that city next to Calcutta and building the roads between Canton, Shanghai, New City, and Calcutta because it can help connect Calcutta to our empire, giving access to the silks, which will help things once we get the city under control. We need only build 6 road tiles to accomplish that, as shown in the picture below.

6 road tiles will take 24 worker turns (true?), so the more workers, the merrier.

Spoiler :

Roads normally take 3 WT to build, but since we are IND we can do that in 2WTs. With our workers paired up, they can move into a tile on Turn 1, start and finish the road on Turn 2, and then move into a new tile on Turn 3 to repeat the process. We could road 6 tiles in 12 turns, which is, of course, 24 elapsed WTs.

But look at the roads carefully, especially around Shanghai. That river is good for commerce and growth, but it is a killer on road movement. We actually need another tile roaded so that units from Beijing can get to the front faster than walking through Shanghai, since they will be avoiding the river.

 

[Northen Wolf]

If you guys have decided that city near river would be useful, how about this pathing, it would save few turns and would faster our movement to the frontlines...

Spoiler :

All 3 cities would be able to use this path and pink road would faster the troop movement even more. It would take 8-10, 2 worker turns to build this (depends if city is found upon empty or roaded tile) more if we want pink road too.

So has city spot been decided? Where do we produce settler?