Yahya
Warlord
If you are talking about my picture, the graphics mod is Snoopy's Terrain (one of them - I think "greener"). I am not sure the roads were modified, however. I think the terrain change makes the roads stand out more, but I am guessing.
Myth01- Training Day- Regent
- Thread starter mythmonster2
- Start date
If you are talking about my picture, the graphics mod is Snoopy's Terrain (one of them - I think "greener"). I am not sure the roads were modified, however. I think the terrain change makes the roads stand out more, but I am guessing.
Yahya
Warlord
This is just a thought, but I am starting to think we could use a Forbidden Palace, or at least a palace move, as I think the FP doesn't work the way it used to.
Corruption is getting pretty bad to the southwest, and will only get worse.
I'm not going to do anything about it right now, though.
Corruption is getting pretty bad to the southwest, and will only get worse.
I'm not going to do anything about it right now, though.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Corruption does work differently in C3C than PTW. Without going into too many gory details, the corruption code was changed in C3C and the Forbidden Palace no longer acts like a second palace. IIRC, it increases the Optimal City Number, which in turn allows more cities to be productive before corruption becomes really huge. Thus, a Palace Jump tends to be too much work for too little reward.
In Vanilla and Play the World, the Palace Jump and the Ring City Placement are very important.
Yahya
Warlord
I am up to turn 7, but need to pause for discussion.
I screwed up at Delhi. Though I had up CivAssist, I let it go to riot for one turn. It produced a settler on the same turn it rioted. I didn't understand the mechanics. I guess you must reduce the size the same turn it grows, or it will riot. I hurried the settler for 28 gold too, which I suppose was a good deal to get only one turn of riots.
But there is a further problem. Tsingtao will grow to size 6 in two turns, but is producing settler in 3. It is 72 gold to hurry the settler there.
Canton will grow to 6 in 3 turns, producing settler in 5. It is 100 gold to hurry settler there.
We have 115 gold, and are at -17 gpt. Polytheism in 4.
The only way I see out of this is to increase the happy slider. That will solve the problem in Canton, but not Tsingtao. I need to increase the happy slider two notches for that, and that puts us at too great a negative (about -28 gpt) for too many turns, so I would have to decrease research.
So, I chose to pause and discuss.
Any thoughts?
I screwed up at Delhi. Though I had up CivAssist, I let it go to riot for one turn. It produced a settler on the same turn it rioted. I didn't understand the mechanics. I guess you must reduce the size the same turn it grows, or it will riot. I hurried the settler for 28 gold too, which I suppose was a good deal to get only one turn of riots.
But there is a further problem. Tsingtao will grow to size 6 in two turns, but is producing settler in 3. It is 72 gold to hurry the settler there.
Canton will grow to 6 in 3 turns, producing settler in 5. It is 100 gold to hurry settler there.
We have 115 gold, and are at -17 gpt. Polytheism in 4.
The only way I see out of this is to increase the happy slider. That will solve the problem in Canton, but not Tsingtao. I need to increase the happy slider two notches for that, and that puts us at too great a negative (about -28 gpt) for too many turns, so I would have to decrease research.
So, I chose to pause and discuss.
Any thoughts?
Lurker:
Actually I would submit that your better off to learn to not concern yourself with culture as you get closer and closer to the AI. Mainly because it takes so long to get any and as you play at higher and higher levels, you have less ability to match them on culture, especially on the front line.
I prefer to just kill them as I get closer and counterfeit their culture by razing their cities. Flips should be rare below Emperor and above it you have nothing much to deal them culture, other than the blade.
Actually I would submit that your better off to learn to not concern yourself with culture as you get closer and closer to the AI. Mainly because it takes so long to get any and as you play at higher and higher levels, you have less ability to match them on culture, especially on the front line.
I prefer to just kill them as I get closer and counterfeit their culture by razing their cities. Flips should be rare below Emperor and above it you have nothing much to deal them culture, other than the blade.
darski
Regent in Training
i say do what you have to do for as long as you have to do it. once the settlers are out the needs and then the sliders will change.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
On the IBT, as the game checks for growth, producition and such, the order is growth (if growth, assign new citizens), production (if completed, ask for new orders) and happiness.
So we built the settler before the city rioted. Good.
Now, why did it riot? Or better: why did it riot after the settler was built and 2 citizens removed from the city?
The best answer I have it that the riot check is done based on pre-production numbers. Even though Delhi built a settler, the riot check uses the Happy/Unhappy count as it existed before the settler was built.
Remember what the riot check is checking: happiness of our people. How well we manage the happiness of our people. Doing nothing is not managing.
Since the settler was rushed, we could have hired a taxman or geek for one turn. Once the city reduced in size, the governor would reallocate our citizens and the specialist would have been put to work. Instead, we did nothing. For a full turn Delhi had more unhappy people than happy people. And so it rioted.
I don't think the happy slider is the answer. I think the problem is that once the cities grow they will become unhappy; at least, that is what happened with Delhi.
What has to be done is to slow the growth of these two cities. Not by much. We just want the settler to be built at the same time the city grows or before the city grows.
The details are this: go the city screen of each city and reassign citizens, until the city growth is slowed down enough to build the settler safely (without risk of riot). This might mean that the city is at zero growth; that is fine. And it might be possible to slow down growth for just one turn (hire a specialist from a flood plain) and that could allow the city to grow at the same time as it builds a settler.
You will need to consider how many shields have been invested in the settlers (each column is 10 shields, but you knew that already), how many more are needed and how many Blue (non-corrupt) sheilds are available each turn.
This is called micro-management and this is a fine opportunity to study it.
I don't see a game save, so I can't make any specific recommendations.
Yahya
Warlord
You're right; there was no game save. There is one on this post.
But, your ideas are very helpful. I would have never thought of that, and I look forward to further suggestions if you think of anything else.
But, your ideas are very helpful. I would have never thought of that, and I look forward to further suggestions if you think of anything else.
lurker's comment: Two other possibilities:
First, bear in mind that lux spending is calculated for each city separately. Sometimes, moving one citizen from a low-commerce tile to a high-commerce tile will be enough to shift a citizen from unhappy to content, or content to happy. The net result is that you can sometimes change the unhappy/happy ratio in a given city without changing the lux slider. I haven't looked at the save, so I don't know if it will work here, but it's worth looking into.
Second, lux spending is calculated after science and there's some rounding that goes on in that shuffle. Look for a thread of mine called "Science makes me unhappy!" I hadn't had the game long and I had an instance crop up where changing the science slider actually changed the happiness of my people. Dropping science by 10% may allow rounding to occur in such a way as to keep everyone happy without increasing lux spending.
First, bear in mind that lux spending is calculated for each city separately. Sometimes, moving one citizen from a low-commerce tile to a high-commerce tile will be enough to shift a citizen from unhappy to content, or content to happy. The net result is that you can sometimes change the unhappy/happy ratio in a given city without changing the lux slider. I haven't looked at the save, so I don't know if it will work here, but it's worth looking into.
Second, lux spending is calculated after science and there's some rounding that goes on in that shuffle. Look for a thread of mine called "Science makes me unhappy!" I hadn't had the game long and I had an instance crop up where changing the science slider actually changed the happiness of my people. Dropping science by 10% may allow rounding to occur in such a way as to keep everyone happy without increasing lux spending.
Northen Wolf
Young Hunter
Worker undedefended near canton, easiest way to manage canton will be taking worker from unroaded plains and put him/her/it/them onto mountain, that will give us 6 turns for growth, with 2 extra fpt and 5 turns for settler, with 5 spt.
Why are we irrigating area left of bangalore? they are grasslands, not plains...
For tsingtao, remove grassland (non improved) tile that gives two commerce and 2 food, and add that tile onto forest with road: 4 turns for growth 4 for settler
And about the horsmen, we are not attacking zulu, we are moving around their borders, and sometimes into, but we are getting out before they say leave or declare, that would give precious info about where enemy cities are!
Why are we irrigating area left of bangalore? they are grasslands, not plains...
For tsingtao, remove grassland (non improved) tile that gives two commerce and 2 food, and add that tile onto forest with road: 4 turns for growth 4 for settler
And about the horsmen, we are not attacking zulu, we are moving around their borders, and sometimes into, but we are getting out before they say leave or declare, that would give precious info about where enemy cities are!
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Tsingtao 10 BC
So let's look at Tsingtao.
Every citizen is producing two food and we have a surplus of two food each turn. In food production, all the tiles are equal. Only four of them are producing any shields; the tile SW of the city has no sheilds.
So if that citizen became a specialist, the city would be at zero growth but would still make a settler in 5 turns. In theory, that is.
Here that citizen has become a clown. The city is indeed at zero growth and the settler will still be completed in five turns.
Notice that our commerce has dropped from 14 to 12. Commerce is in the middle of the city screen, under Production and Food. Before we stopped our city growth, we had 14 commerce per turn; afterwards only 12.
Before, that 14 commerce was broken down into 6 gold, 3 beakers and 1 smiley, with 4 commerce lost to corruption. Afterwards, we had 5 gold, 2 beakers and 2 smileys (1 more due to the clown) and 4 commerce lost to corruption.
Here the clown has become a geek; we get a lot more science and the city stays productive and happy.
Canton 10 BC
Canton is not so easy.
Every citizen is making a sheild, so hiring a specailist will also delay the settler. The city also has a surplus of 4 food per turn; quite a lot.
If we hire the citizen working the hill, Canton grows in 4 and the settler completes in 7; 3 surplus food. If we hire the citizen on the unroaded plain, Canton grows in 6, but the settler still completes in 7; 2 surplus food. If we hire the oasis, Canton grows in 12 and the settler completes in 7; 1 surplus food; good. If we hire the wheat, Canton has no growth and the settler completes in 7; also good.
Slow growth is better than no growth, so lets make a specialist of the citizen working the oasis.
That is what Canton looks like after we make the oasis worker into a clown.
That is what Canton looks like after the clown becomes a geek.
That is what Canton looks like after 4 turns. It needs 8 food to grow (1 surplus food; 8 turns) and 9 shields to complete the settler (4 shields per turn; 3 turns). The Blue lines indicate where our food and shields started at four turns ago.
But, if we fire the geek and put him back on the oasis we are back to the initial situation, only on our terms. Now we have 4 surplus food and grow in 2 turns. We also have 5 sheilds per turn and the settler completes in 2 turns, with only one shield being wasted as an overrun. Growth and production occur at the same time, so no riots.
The real tricky part is remembering to make the geek into a working citizen in four turns.
So let's look at Tsingtao.
Spoiler :
Every citizen is producing two food and we have a surplus of two food each turn. In food production, all the tiles are equal. Only four of them are producing any shields; the tile SW of the city has no sheilds.
So if that citizen became a specialist, the city would be at zero growth but would still make a settler in 5 turns. In theory, that is.
Spoiler :
Here that citizen has become a clown. The city is indeed at zero growth and the settler will still be completed in five turns.
Notice that our commerce has dropped from 14 to 12. Commerce is in the middle of the city screen, under Production and Food. Before we stopped our city growth, we had 14 commerce per turn; afterwards only 12.
Before, that 14 commerce was broken down into 6 gold, 3 beakers and 1 smiley, with 4 commerce lost to corruption. Afterwards, we had 5 gold, 2 beakers and 2 smileys (1 more due to the clown) and 4 commerce lost to corruption.
Spoiler :
Here the clown has become a geek; we get a lot more science and the city stays productive and happy.
Canton 10 BC
Canton is not so easy.
Spoiler :
Every citizen is making a sheild, so hiring a specailist will also delay the settler. The city also has a surplus of 4 food per turn; quite a lot.
If we hire the citizen working the hill, Canton grows in 4 and the settler completes in 7; 3 surplus food. If we hire the citizen on the unroaded plain, Canton grows in 6, but the settler still completes in 7; 2 surplus food. If we hire the oasis, Canton grows in 12 and the settler completes in 7; 1 surplus food; good. If we hire the wheat, Canton has no growth and the settler completes in 7; also good.
Slow growth is better than no growth, so lets make a specialist of the citizen working the oasis.
Spoiler :
That is what Canton looks like after we make the oasis worker into a clown.
Spoiler :
That is what Canton looks like after the clown becomes a geek.
Spoiler :
That is what Canton looks like after 4 turns. It needs 8 food to grow (1 surplus food; 8 turns) and 9 shields to complete the settler (4 shields per turn; 3 turns). The Blue lines indicate where our food and shields started at four turns ago.
But, if we fire the geek and put him back on the oasis we are back to the initial situation, only on our terms. Now we have 4 surplus food and grow in 2 turns. We also have 5 sheilds per turn and the settler completes in 2 turns, with only one shield being wasted as an overrun. Growth and production occur at the same time, so no riots.
The real tricky part is remembering to make the geek into a working citizen in four turns.
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
I think I got carried away with my screenshots.
Northen Wolf's suggestions are actually better than mine.
Polytheism
Hiring geeks does help us learn Polytheism a little bit faster, however.
By hiring the geeks, and increasing science to 40%, we can learn Polytheism in 3 turns, at -26 gpt (-72 gold total).
If we do not hire those two geeks, we can learn it in 4 turns, at -17 gpt (-68 total). If we increase science to 40%, we still learn the new tech in 4 turns, but at -24 gpt (-96 total).
In just gold, if we hired the geeks we spend an extra 4 gold to learn Polytheism one turn sooner. That seems like a good deal.
But to hire the geeks, we have to delay building two cities by one turn each. That makes the decision more difficult.
And I think either decision is a good one.
Northen Wolf's suggestions are actually better than mine.
Polytheism
Hiring geeks does help us learn Polytheism a little bit faster, however.
By hiring the geeks, and increasing science to 40%, we can learn Polytheism in 3 turns, at -26 gpt (-72 gold total).
If we do not hire those two geeks, we can learn it in 4 turns, at -17 gpt (-68 total). If we increase science to 40%, we still learn the new tech in 4 turns, but at -24 gpt (-96 total).
In just gold, if we hired the geeks we spend an extra 4 gold to learn Polytheism one turn sooner. That seems like a good deal.
But to hire the geeks, we have to delay building two cities by one turn each. That makes the decision more difficult.
And I think either decision is a good one.
lurker's comment: Nice analysis CB and NW!
What happens if you take the Cantonese citizen working the hill (1f & 1s) and make him a fisherman (put him on the water)? Canton doesn't have a harbor, so a water tile should be 1f & 2g (I think). If I'm right in my numbers, you'll trade 1 shield for 2 gold, and it might gain you a happy face. What I don't know is whether you'll lose an uncorrupted or a corrupted shield. In this case, you'll probably lose an uncorrupted shield, but there are situations where a trade like that will only lose you a corrupted shield.
What happens if you take the Cantonese citizen working the hill (1f & 1s) and make him a fisherman (put him on the water)? Canton doesn't have a harbor, so a water tile should be 1f & 2g (I think). If I'm right in my numbers, you'll trade 1 shield for 2 gold, and it might gain you a happy face. What I don't know is whether you'll lose an uncorrupted or a corrupted shield. In this case, you'll probably lose an uncorrupted shield, but there are situations where a trade like that will only lose you a corrupted shield.
lurker's comment:
I don't know what Bangalore needs, but you're a Republic now. No more despotism penalty. I usually continue to "mine green & irrigate brown" long after the despotism penalty applies, but remember that this rule of thumb is there because of the despo penalty. Now the question is: What does the empire need for Bangalore to have?
Nice work scouting! No doubt that info will come in handy when the war starts.
Yahya
Warlord
Hmm. I just read through all this, and these are all good insights. Thank you all.
I will come back to it today and re-read. And probably read it again tonight after school, before making the changes.
Any other ideas are welcome as well.
Thanks!
I will come back to it today and re-read. And probably read it again tonight after school, before making the changes.
Any other ideas are welcome as well.
Thanks!
Northen Wolf
Young Hunter
I think I got carried away with my screenshots.
Northen Wolf's suggestions are actually better than mine.
Thanks, but that was simple, i did not even need to calculate things, just rearrange tiles... But hiring geeks will slow growth and production, that will delay city placement. And I've learned two rules so far:
But to hire the geeks, we have to delay building two cities by one turn each. That makes the decision more difficult.
And I think either decision is a good one.[/QUOTE]
I like producing faster
When you see empty area, fill it Aslong as it can support town above size 4.Yahya
Warlord
Sorry, folks, but I need to take a bit more time on these last few turns. I should have them finished by Saturday morning, New York time.
darski
Regent in Training
Can I just mention something that I discovered when I was messing around with an old save...
the Zulu units in our land cannot get home while we have Irony blocked off. We could just move the warrior off that hill and see if they want to leave... or not???
the Zulu units in our land cannot get home while we have Irony blocked off. We could just move the warrior off that hill and see if they want to leave... or not???
Northen Wolf
Young Hunter
NO, that would bring more Zulu units into our borders.
darski
Regent in Training
Oh. ok. in the 'messing with' games, they all immediately tried to leave so I thought they would here too. Of course I had cities up there when that happened.
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