MZD Deity: Frederick

[MeowZeDung]

Hey all

I tried posting my own forum games a long time ago and it didn't work out so great because of RL commitments. With my schedule these days, however, I find that I have a lot of time to play Civ 2-3 days a week (I work nights and have to stay up all night while the family sleeps to maintain my schedule on the weekends), but a lot less time during the week. Since I usually do HoF/XotM on weekends, I figured I could use the shorter periods of time during the week to run short turnsets on a forum game and finally learn to beat Deity!

I chose the leader for this game since I wanted someone with decent traits, but no early game UU/UB that would strongly influence gameplay as I learn Deity fundamentals. I thought Frederick (Phi, Org) would do just fine. Starting techs are hunting and mining.

Here's the start:

Spoiler :

My initial thoughts are to move the scout 1N1NW, 2N, or 1N1NE to see if there's any reason to move the settler north of the lake. That seems unlikely though, and SiP for lots of riverside cottages, or settling on the sugar for the food bonus seem more likely.

I'm a bit hesitant to settle on the sugar though. The biggest benefits are the extra food right off the bat, preserving a hill, and possibly grabbing a fogged resource to the east. The cons are possibly missing a food resource 1S1SW of the settler and having less food long term even if there isn't more food around.

Thoughts on the scout move and where to settle?

The save is attatched. I run Buffy, but I did not lock modified assets. Please post shadow games in spoilers.

 

[Rusten]

Good luck!

Scout/settling: IMO always first decide what you'd do given the available information, and then send the scout to a location that could change your mind.
My first thought here would be to settle on the sugar, so I'd want to see the tile 2S of the scout beforehand. I'd send the scout 1SW, which checks out the tile and also a few other interesting tiles nearby. If food or luxuries are found then I'm settling 1SW instead.

If you prefer SIP over sugar with the information available right now then you might want to move the scout differently.

 

[lymond]

My thoughts are exactly as Rusten's. My immediate reaction is to settle on sugar. Any time you can get an early bonus like that on Deity or any level, it can really pay off. So I would want to move the scout to see if I lose anything by doing so. 1SW is perfect as it will reveal info not only of what you will lose (open tile 2S1W) but what you might gain to the W.

SIP is fine..loss of a hill does not mean much when you would not work it for ages. But sugar is very tempting unless you lose wet corn or pigs by doing so...and moving W is not out of the question either if the scout reveals something juicy.

Tech choice up in the air until scout move and settle.

i'd note the version of BUFFY as well, since we have the old one and the beta out there.

 

[MeowZeDung]

It is the "old" Buffy, not the beta. Didn't even think about that.

Thanks for the input guys. I will move the scout after work and post the results

 

[MeowZeDung]

Took your advice and moved the scout 1SW

Spoiler :

Interesting. Moving the settler 1W or 1SW before settling is certainly not a bad move and gives a lot more food, as well as river access for early trade routes and a levee if the game goes into the industrial era. 1W has more riverside grassland for cottaging, but 1SW has the potential to land a strategic resource in one of the fogged tiles to the south. Short term I don't know if either site is better than Settling on the eastern sugar though since they both have low production if there isn't a resource in the fog, and either option loses a turn. Let me know what you all think.

As far as techs, barring a fantastic discovery on a fogged tile I think AH > BW > Archery (if necessary) in order to hook up the cows, reveal horses/copper, and chop out a settler. If I settle 1W or 1SW then AH > Agri > BW is probably better. I don't think Agri > AH would allow the worker to work the cows as soon as it's ready, but I could be wrong. I forget how big of a research bonus you get for meeting AIs that already know the tech you're researching.

 

[lymond]

My recommendation would be to settle on the sugar here. Tech decision still uncertain until settle. I would not rule out Ag>AH if Ag has benefit, since it gives bonus on AH. But if not ..straight to AH is fine.

Keep in mind that mines are less a priority early, since you want growth and whipping

 

[DrCron]

I would settle on the sugar to not lose a turn and get the extra food. Calendar resources are not tempting enough to lose initial turns IMO.

 

[lymond]

@640 AD (Rusty Rusten?)

Spoiler yowza :

A little Rusty playing Deity, but got Lib in 600AD which seems quite late, but tech trading was limited early. Used Aeths early to get Maths and Alpha..though really did not need Alpha. Planned to go Currency but all the AIs got it quick, which was a little surprising. I'm in Bud with Willie and Joao. HC is Hindu.
Bulbed Philo (no religion)>Edu> Lib. Did not want to bulb Philo but Willie(or Joao) had it, so wanted to use it to catch up on some techs like Currency and Calendar, which is good here. Had planned on Libbing MT, tech Natio first, but just a few turns after finishing Edu, Joao was clearly on the case, so I least got Machinery for it, and hopefully can trade for Optics soon with Willie or HC to start meeting the other continent. I libbed Natio.

Curs seem like a likely way to go. HC is very big here with 17 cities, but not teching as fast as Willie, Joao or even me. Joao and Willie are good buds, so HC would be target. Could try to subjugate HC and go for Diplo or something. Fighting HC will be a slog though.

Currently whipping out those fast Unis, but Ox will be very slow. Maybe try to get a Engineer for it.

Interested in what Rusten thinks I could do here.

3 of my of 7 cities were barb cities captured with chariots.

Spoiler land :

Spoiler tech :

Spoiler diplo :

 

[MeowZeDung]

Settled on the sugar 1E of the settler:

Spoiler :

The cow is still the best available tile to improve, but I can produce a worker in 12 turns and wouldn't get AH until 15, maybe 1-2 turns less after border pop allows me to work the banana tile. Agriculture first to farm the banana might be better to prevent wasted worker turns and get the research bonus for AH. Agri > AH > BW/The wheel perhaps? Then again, the dry rice isn't really appealing as a second tile to improve, so perhaps AH > Agri >BW/The wheel is better in order to improve the cows first? I guess the third tech depends on whether AH reveals horses nearby.

Any thoughts on where to scout first? I'm not thrilled about the jungle all along our southern border, so I'm thinking I should explore a bit further west and then circle around north of the capital.

 

[lymond]

Well, I guess there is another way to look at it too. Faster worker beats AH..nothing much to do..except worthless mine. But also, after cow, worker will not have anything to do either. At least with AG he can start farming nanners immediately. Personally, I'd go AG first here. I could see arguments against that..mainly with focus on streamlining tech as much as possible on Deity. But Ag opens Pottery as well. Hard to say. I'm interested in what others say. IMO though, I think AG>AH>BW is the way to go here.

 

[Lain]

I would delay the tech decision until Turn 5, just de-select until then. That gives you time to use some scouting information first. I would scout along the west, follow the river there. What mapscript is this, by the way?

 

[lymond]

It's continents

 

[MeowZeDung]

Sorry, forgot to mention mapscript in original post. I chose continents because it's more predictable than something like Fractal, but less predictable than something like Pangaea. Again, I want to work on Deity fundamentals, so I want the most "normal" or "standard" game type I can create.

I usually delay my tech decision until T4 incase I get a tech boost from meeting an AI, I didn't know you could wait until T5. I thought the game auto-selected a tech for you if you ended T4 without choosing.

I agree that scouting info can inform tech decision here. If scouting doesn't influence the decision heavily though, I'd say that Ag>AH and AH>Ag are comparable. AH first opening would mean moving the worker onto the hill on t13, mining on t14, building a pasture t15-t18, giving a 4f2h tile by t18. Ag first opening would mean moving the worker onto the forest 1S on t13, farming t14-18, giving a 4f1c tile by t18. AH first slightly stronger here, but it might even out a bit by Ag first allowing all three food tiles to be improved slightly quicker, ie. before the mine. I'm not sure that the tech boost from Ag first is worth influencing my decision. I'm still leaning toward AH first, but that's partially due to barb paranoia and a desire to find horses/copper or tech archery sooner rather than later. Either way, this is all conjecture until I've scouted a bit. Just thinking out loud

 

[lymond]

game doesn't auto-select techs. After t5 you will lose the accrued beakers.

 

[MeowZeDung]

game doesn't auto-select techs. After t5 you will lose the accrued beakers.

Ah, gotcha.

Well, I had a few minute before I have to get ready for work, so I went ahead and played to t5. No AIs met. Here's what I've scouted thus far:

Spoiler :

There's two good spots that stand out to me for city #2 and 3: Directly east of the capital between the rice and the cow, and the rice/cow/sugar spot 3W of the lake. Of course it all depends on meeting AI and whether horses or copper are revealed and what's best for barb defense. Not much commerce though, especially with a non-Fin leader. More motivation to cottage early I suppose. Unless maybe there's some gems down by the jungle.

Edit: Those beakers aren't sunk in AH yet, I just selected it as a placeholder. Would still like to hear other opinions on AH or Agriculture first. I am leaning towards AH for reasons stated in previous posts.

 

[Condorski]

@lymond

The game auto-selects after 5 turns if you do not select a tech as Meow stated. You do Not lose you accrued beakers.

 

[lymond]

@lymond

The game auto-selects after 5 turns if you do not select a tech as Meow stated. You do Not lose you accrued beakers.

I was stating that from the point of view of either a) selecting the tech you want by turn 5 b) or continuing to not select a tech. It may auto-select - who knows, never paid attention - but you would still micro the tech you want. My point was that if you did continue to not select a tech you would indeed lose your accrued beakers. Whatever the case, the player has complete control of this process one way or another. Just make sure you select the tech you want by t5.

 

[Lain]

I would go for AG. Main reason for me is that it unlocks Pottery and is required anyway. No reason to go Fishing here. And you probably want to go Pottery fairly early, possibly even before BW. Since you have Hunting already, adding AG will make AH even cheaper. You don't have much commerce as it is, so taking advantage of that bonus is something that you definitely want to be doing. Could farm the banana, build a grassland mine and improve cows after that. Timing should be about right.

The scout can go and fogbust that double sugar/rice spot now. First city should probably go between rice and cow in the east. Easier to defend and immediately productive with cow/rice/mine.

My plan would be: AG -> AH -> Wheel -> (Archery?) -> Pottery -> BW right now. 3rd city (2x sugar) has decent space for cottaging. Could cottage a sugar tile. Would have to think more about it, but what use is BW if you can't pay for expansion anyway. Could whip 1x and then wait for Pottery because you are broke. Don't see the point if the land isn't strongly contested by AI, which doesn't seem to be the case right now.

Edit: 3rd city between sugar+wet rice? The latter is too good to not have within range immediately.

 

[MeowZeDung]

Played a short turnset with a little more scouting, meeting some neighbors, and teching Ag>AH.

The locals:

Spoiler :

Took advice and went Agriculture first. Berlin went worker>warrior. Worker improved the banana, moved to the hill, mined one turn, and just began the pasture on the turn I stopped when AH was finished. TW selected as a place holder.

Horses?

Spoiler :

Yep!

Joao is pretty close though, you can see his borders just west of the small mountain range. I met Willem first, and it's likely that he's to the north. HC could have come from just about anywhere generally west of Berlin.

With Portugal so close, barb defense and fog busting might be a little easier, but I still think getting the horses before Joao should be a priority. Settling 1SE of the riverside rice tile for my second city perhaps? Eastern rice/cow site on the coast should be uncontested Would like to have strong food and horses without needing a border pop of course, but unless barbs are knocking at the door the food takes priority right? I don't have enough experience with Deity barbs to say. Then again, settling 1NE of the horse allows two sugar farms/cottages for some added commerce and isn't a bad city by any means with three decent tiles before a border pop.

Tech choice of TW>pottery>bw or some combination thereof seems right to me. Archery might be necessary, especially if Joao beats me to the horses. It's nice to see marble to the north, but I think getting it peacefully might be a pipe dream. There might not be any food to speak of up there anyhow.

If I have anything close to an accurate idea of how fast Deity AI expand, I'd say that I can probably get the horse/sugar city, and maybe one more decent inland city (3N of horse/sugar city?) then 2-3 coastal cities depending on available seafood. I don't know how realistic any of that is, just thinking out loud. I will definitely have to cottage heavily with no real commerce to speak of here.

Let me know what you guys think!

 

[Lain]

Good job on the reports and thought sharing, makes it easy to follow and certainly encourages more responses. Keep it up .

2nd city between sugar and horses seems good to me. Maybe even 1S on the jungle tile, but that might be a bit too cocky. Because of horses, but mainly to block off Joao. AI love their calendar resources and you can be sure he will have an eye on that spot sooner rather than later.

Barbs will become a problem even before you can hook up the horses, but I don't think Archery is necessary. At least 3 warriors in total before the settler seem in order though. The first one could go to the north, there is a forested hill 1S of the silk. That should keep you safe from that direction. The scout is also doing a good job, make sure to stay in the vicinity. The other 2 warriors can approach sugar/horses. The mountain chain helps aswell. So settler will probably come at size 4. I hope that's not too late.

Looking at the AI situation, I would advise BW next. To whip the next settler and start chopping as soon as possible. If the enemies were a bit closer, even AH could have been skipped. But finding horses is good I suppose. Otherwise it would've been just one grassland cow for the near future, which is a bit meh. It's important to grab space now though, otherwise they might force your hand at an early rush. Better to keep options open and get enough land yourself. Wheel-Pottery definitely seems too slow. Grab the land now, pay for it later.

As for expansion, along that river seems good to me. 1st settle = sugar/horse, 2nd settle = rice/sugar. They will be connected to each other by default. So you will only "lack" one trade route for a little while (to the capital), not too important. I would make that marble a priority. It doesn't need any food.

Commerce isn't great, but it could be worse. Those river tiles will get you to Pottery at least. Then you will be fine. There is decent space for cottaging.

This is Continents so it's likely that the other 3 AI are on their own continent(s) then?

Long-term strategy would be between Engineering bulb and Astro play for me. On a good day you could lib Astro and go from there. Too early to tell though. I like the Engineering idea though.

Hope other people chip in and offer some different perspectives.