MZD Deity: Frederick

[Lain]

I have BUFFY as a mod (not Custom Assets), but maybe it's a different version or something? Kind of want to make it work, but not sure how.

Hmm. Any ideas?

How do I play it unmodded?

Edit: Ok, I am in business. Had 3.19.004b, had to load 3.19.003... eek.

 

[Lain]

Well...

Spoiler :

All went well so far, but Willem started plotting really early and I am probably his target. Then Joao demanded something and went into WHEOUHRN ... but 650 BC I am about ready to hit him with this. I suspect he would declare on me next turn with this little stack... I will declare now, wipe it out and take Oporto (2 archers and 1 chariot there)



Gifted Alpha+Math to Willem to beg for 1 gold. Still plotting. Maybe he is going for Joao?

10 HA + 4 Chariots, but reinforcements will keep streaming in. My biggest concern right now is the aftermath. Being at war with 2/3 AI and such. Will have to rely on heavy bulbing. Uuh, I don't like HA rushes.

I have a different one coming up on my channel next week though, so stay tuned for that

Some saves attached.

Edit: Just realized that I am about to cut off my trade routes to the only guy I roaded into... well.

 

[Lain]

To 300 BC

Spoiler :

This was in the last turnset, but I made this trade with HC. My rational being that he is annoyed with the other two jokers so unlikely to trade it away any time soon. And I can use these techs to start cottaging and building research for Currency after Joao is broken.



Gifted Maths + Alpha to Willem to get him to Pleased and beg 1 gold. Delay his (likely) attack for a bit.

Joao had similar ideas about attacking so we kind of met halfway



I declared and wiped out the stack. Could have been better, but oh well.



He completely neglected his defense though. 2 Archers in Oporto...



HC spread Hinduism to me. I will probably switch into that. I could use a friend and happy cap is a big issue. Also, HC started plotting aswell so I want to beg 1 gold just in case. He is probably getting ready to dogpile Joao though, after I did all the dirty work...

Not sure how much metal Joao has, didn't bother to scout all of his 8 cities, but it can't hurt to pillage this iron right here (look at tile yield). Still no idea what Willem is doing... but he oracled Theology, also built GLH and Great Wall. Only has 5 cities and is plotting, probably on me.



Reinforcements were coming along nicely, but random interruptions here and there...



Want to take his capital next. Defenses aren't looking too scary. And it's not across a river somehow, even though I thought it would be.



And it falls pretty convincingly. Didn't screenshot the combat log somehow.



I made a great medic right about now. I decided to ignore the north. Because any captures would be flooded by Willem's culture and then there is also his incoming declaration... so south it is. Coimbra is weak.



Not too many problems.



Braga is a little stacked with Archers, so I wait a little bit for reinforcements to arrive. Also constantly checking my borders for the expected Dutch SoD.



Braga falls easily. Getting like 80% against non-fortified archers in flatland cities.



Guimares is looking a bit disgusting to take, but the culture is a headache so I want to take it for sure.



At this point I have 14 HAs and have already started to consolidate my economy. Laying down cottages, building Research etc to reach Currency.



I noticed that Joao has Calendar. I am going to need that with all my newly acquired resources. So I self-tech Fishing and make this trade. Giving HAs to Willem, is that smart? Oh well, I am not scared of him at this point.



Aaaand here we go, Willem is finally ready. 2 Axes, 3 Chariots and 2 Spearmen. The one annoying thing is that I still don't have metal.



So I will take Guimares, take Calendar + Iron Working for peace and swing back my stack to defend now. It's a bit stacked, but mostly chariots so no biggie.



A bit of combat luck meant only 1 loss.



Now just have to survive Willem's attack and switch into teching mode. Seems like the other continent is a bit behind and I saw Great Generals being born over there aswell. So I am not too worried. I want Philosophy soon to run Pacifism and generate the GS to maybe win Lib. Or just Astro and beeline Cannons. I like to skip Education lately. Might aswell bulb Chemistry, that's more to the point.

Joao and Willem somehow both ended up in Christianity now. I think Willem founded like 4 religions or something. But he is small so can be picked up later without much troubles. Me and HC will be best friends when I switch into HR.

 

[Pangaea]

@Lain

Spoiler :

Looks like a really well-executed HA rush, Lain Did you build many Stables? I see you had at least one, and Shock comes in really handy against Spears (and Swords). Once you get Calendar and can hook up all those resources, including 3 Gems, you should recover the economy without too much fuss I would think.

Always impressive to see these rushes pulled off successfully, especially on Deity, so thanks for the detailed report (and the link to @Fippy's most excellent rush too).

 

[Lain]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Thanks . One stable in the capital, which had most of the forests. Definitely worth it since I got 1 unit/turn for like 7 turns in a row there. I flicked in Archery before HBR and built a few Archers, being afraid of a Willem DoW and all. That was a bit unfortunate. But better safe than sorry.

Built 3 Libraries, but by the time I could have run scientists everywhere I already reached HBR, so only one GS. All cities had Barracks at least.

The gems, dyes and stuff were my reason to go for Joao here. It usually works out nicely because jungle slows them down a lot. In contrast, Willem had no jungle at all and decent food/production in all his cities. In addition to being further away and all. But a target in the jungle is usually a good bet. It can also be better to hit someone who has 7-8 cities and not 4-5. The latter is probably boxed in and has nothing better to do than building axes/spears in all his cities. Which is bad. Hitting them during expansion can work out nicely. And Joao is really prone to (over)-expanding and leaving himself vulnerable. He tends to be an easy target in many games.

Until 300 BC he only researched Iron Working, Math and Calendar. Despite having gems. Civs with a low city count tend to tech much quicker. Would be no surprise to see Willem hit Feudalism around 600 BC, for example.

 

[Lain]

@MeowZeDung Did you have the opportunity to try again yet? Or to start another game in case replaying is too boring? I enjoyed your reports so really hope there is more to come

 

[MeowZeDung]

@MeowZeDung Did you have the opportunity to try again yet? Or to start another game in case replaying is too boring? I enjoyed your reports so really hope there is more to come

Glad you enjoyed them!

Busy week both at work and home! I hope to play this one again at least once more to 600BC at the very least. It's always tempting to just start a new game, but I think this will be better for learning. Should be able to play Saturday.

 

[MeowZeDung]

Alrighty, I finally got a chance to play this one again up to 775BC. Was shooting for HA stack ready to attack by 600BC, but that's not quite going to happen I'm really impressed at how you guys pull that off without a strong commerce tile available. At any rate, I still think this attempt is an improvement, even though it didn't start out that way. . .

It looked like the barbs were going to play fair this time.

Spoiler :

But that didn't last long. . .

Spoiler :

Aaaaaand reload I'm confused as to how the barb city was able to spawn that close to my borders, especially with the positioning of my scout and warrior.

HC founded Hinduism, Joao joined him after a while, and WvO founded Buddhism and got a bit pushy.

Spoiler :

I agreed in order to (hopefully) avoid a DoW, plus Joao had not converted to either Buddhism or Hinduism by that point. Later, when Willem was at pleased, I asked him to gift archery and was refused He was willing to accept AH for Archery for a long time, but I held off. Maybe I shouldn't have? Right now I have HBR completed, Archery due in 3 turns, and two stables being built. The horse/sugar city is going to 3 pop whip a library and put the overflow straight into a HA.

I focused more on getting cottages up and running quicker this time around, but I made one glaring error that I'm kicking myself for: I have yet to run a pair of scientists to get a GS I swear, I don't understand how you guys expand, grow cottages, generate enough commerce to get through HBR, run two scientists, AND get a stack ready by 800-600BC. I might just need to re-run this scenario a few more times before I understand (I haven't looked at some spoilers yet, so there might be something for me to glean from them), but for now I'd like to try to push forward if you all think it is doable. With PHI I can still get to the math bulb pretty quick and chop away (everything is pre-chopped at this point).

Here's a look at the empire and relations/tech/wonders:

Spoiler :

Joao seems the best target, but I worry about HC. I'm already his worst enemy, and I don't see how declaring on his Hindu friend will improve that situation any. WvO is plotting, and I know he can declare at pleased, so that's also worrisome. Hopefully he will declare on Joao and draws all of HC's hate in doing so.

My verdict is that this is slightly better than my previous attempts, but still not great. Let me know if you think this is winnable from the position I'm in, and if so I will press on. If not, I'm game for one more try before posting a new game. I think the repetition of the same map is useful up to a point, but not indefinitely.

 

[sampsa]

• Yes, should have definitely taken AH-archery deal, because it speeds up your attack date.
• Why are you planning to whip a library at this point? It's slowing down your attack.
• No idea why you don't have a GS by now. For example Munich would have been good for that, otherwise the library there is a bit moot.
• Again you are building stables. That is putting hammers into something else than HAs.
  
• I think you are over-whipping a bit, I mean you don't have much use for them before you can build HAs. Whipping away -tiles slows you down. The map is very bad for whipping since you have no way to increase your happy cap.
• Maybe taking religion was just a bad idea? You'd rather ignore Willem (who doesn't care much about religion anyway) and try to befriend HC. Him spending sending you missionaries would be great.

 

[Anysense]

Aaaaaand reload I'm confused as to how the barb city was able to spawn that close to my borders, especially with the positioning of my scout and warrior.

Unlike units the barbarian cities can spawn on any fogged tile. Sometimes barbs play really dirty. I've once had 2 barb cities on the nearest to my capital fogged tiles spawned in 29xx BC. Never expect them to be good boys and not to spawn too early, but that was a bit of shock.

 

[MeowZeDung]

• Yes, should have definitely taken AH-archery deal, because it speeds up your attack date.

Makes sense. I was considering future WFYABTA penalties for trading for such a minor tech. On Deity I take it the short term benefit is far more critical though.

• Why are you planning to whip a library at this point? It's slowing down your attack.

I wanted to set up chop/whip overflow in each city for the turn archery was finished and I could produce HAs. A library was the best building for me to do that with in that city.

• No idea why you don't have a GS by now. For example Munich would have been good for that, otherwise the library there is a bit moot.

Yeah, that is embarrassing. Like I said, it was a huge mistake.

• Again you are building stables. That is putting hammers into something else than HAs.

Isn't whipping stables into HAs the turn before archery finishes pretty standard for an HA rush?

• I think you are over-whipping a bit, I mean you don't have much use for them before you can build HAs. Whipping away -tiles slows you down. The map is very bad for whipping since you have no way to increase your happy cap.

You are probably right.

• Maybe taking religion was just a bad idea? You'd rather ignore Willem (who doesn't care much about religion anyway) and try to befriend HC. Him spending sending you missionaries would be great.

I was mostly focused on self-preservation with that decision. I didn't think about the missionary production slowing him down and benefitting me though. . .

Thanks for the feedback! Gives me plenty to improve on for my next attempt!

 

[sampsa]

Makes sense. I was considering future WFYABTA penalties for trading for such a minor tech. On Deity I take it the short term benefit is far more critical though.

For me, worrying about WFYABTA is very situational. Here you have an AI that has founded a religion and has HR as favorite civic. He (Huyana) is extremely easy to get to friendly, thus overriding WFYABTA-limitations.

I wanted to set up chop/whip overflow in each city for the turn archery was finished and I could produce HAs. A library was the best building for me to do that with in that city. Isn't whipping stables into HAs the turn before archery finishes pretty standard for an HA rush?

The problem is that stables are a pretty weak building for 60 (at this point of game! Of course it's different for a cuirassier rush...). Often you'd rather have a city spit out 5 HA's with 3xp than 4 with 5xp. I don't think setting up overflow in that way is very beneficial for you, especially if you build a building with very limited immediate use (library in this case, which also costs almost as much as two HAs...). What matters is the question "when can you attack?".

Thanks for the feedback! Gives me plenty to improve on for my next attempt!

Np. I think you are doing the right thing re-playing this start and getting a hang of how things work on this exact map.

 

[dutchfire]

The advantage of having 3xp is that you can probably use a promotion to heal after your first attack

 

[Lain]

Great that you are giving this another try .

The barb thing is unfortunate, but I think the delay is partly caused by going for Pottery. Which doesn't pay back for itself in time. On a higher commerce start with a better happy cap it can be flicked in, but here I would advise against it. Did you take a look at my playthrough? Don't think it's too spoilery. Streamlining research was a big part of my earlier attack date.

Having said that, I don't think your situation is hopeless. If you traded for Archery and had taken care of a GS, you might even be ready to go in a few turns. Always make trades like that. Absolutely worth it, WFYABTA or not. I also trade for Mysticism, Masonry and Poly when rushing towards GL and things like that. The trading restriction is overrated and doesn't even apply when you trade with AI from the bottom half of the scoreboard.

Now you might run into more problems than necessary. I still think you should play out the HA attack, just to get a feel for the tactical nuances. Picking the right battles etc could still get you somewhere. It's a good learning experience either way.

Replaying is good. I am currently on my 27th try in the Mao isolation game. No pain no gain.

 

[sampsa]

Lain has a good point. It's a good idea to check his game now and try to understand how/why he did what he did. It's also very interesting how going for early pottery might slow you down here. One big reason is the low happy cap. It makes whipping lose lots of it's power, which also means that granaries are not very useful. That's 60 saved for something more urgent. Low happy cap also hurts cottages in general, because you can't grow and work many of them.

I am currently on my 27th try in the Mao isolation game. No pain no gain.

 

[MeowZeDung]

Ran through it up to 800BC again, and there's a slight improvement I think.

The relevant details are that I took advice from the posts above and:

• Skipped pottery. I think exact tech path was Agriculture>AH>BW>The Wheel>Writing>HBR.
• Took the AH for Archery trade with Willem.
• HBR was finished this turn, which is the same turn my GS was born and bulbed math. All chops put into HAs. Didn't build stables with this timing obviously.
• Only built barracks when I had nothing else meaningful to build. Berlin and Munich both have one. After those I only built workers/chariots.
• Because I didn't have a lot to invest hammers into, I actually ran scientists in both Berlin and Munich to speed up HBR. Thanks to Philo, I can get a fairly quick 2nd GS out of Munich when appropriate to move citizens off of hammer tiles again.

Here's the empire and cities:

Spoiler :

You can see that two cities had to put a few hammers into chariots. I won't invest in those again until I run out of forests. I think each city can probably whip once, yes?

Here's Joao's empire and a closer look at the border cities:

Spoiler :

I'm going to take another peek at Oporto while my HA army is in the works and see if it still only has 2 archers there. Would like to know everyone's thoughts on how large of a stack would be "safe" to attack with and the most logical attack strategy. How many cities should I look to take before suing for peace? Best way to get at Alpha by then might be HBR to WvO. Pottery is currently selected as a placeholder, but I'm not sure what the best route tech wise is. My workers will have clear cut German lands pretty quickly and could be put to work on cottages for sure.

Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Rusten]

HA rush is probably not a bad idea, and you're clearly trying to perfect it so maybe you should just keep going, but:

This is a landlocked start with a philosophical leader that does not start with fishing. To me that screams engineering+machinery lightbulb. Much stronger opening IMO.

 

[sampsa]

It looks better indeed. Anyway, there is always room for improvement. Maybe you could have done with one worker less? There seems to be many superfluous roads. You also have many warriors. I would have deleted all but 3 after you have access to chariots and won't have any barb issues anymore.

 

[MeowZeDung]

HA rush is probably not a bad idea, and you're clearly trying to perfect it so maybe you should just keep going, but:

This is a landlocked start with a philosophical leader that does not start with fishing. To me that screams engineering+machinery lightbulb. Much stronger opening IMO.

How many cities would you say are needed for such a strategy to be done well? I thought the lack of commerce, expansion, and ultimately production would severely weaken a classical/medieval breakout. But I am here to learn and might replay yet again after I attempt this ha rush.

 

[Rusten]

Probably 4 or more cities. Depends on the quality of land. Overlapping not a concern.
There's more than enough commerce -- you have green rivers.