Nation Bashing

[naervod]

America can be considered a civ, just a modern civilization. Just because something is new, it doesn't mean it is not a civilization, it means it is a newer one compared to say the Baylonians or the Persians.

A civilization is defined as "an advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions."

Lets see if America fits the criteria. Well not all Americans could be considered intellectuals, we have developed an intellectual society based on the ideas of liberty and justice, two advanced ideas in human civilization. Cultural development- American culture is strong and spreading rapidly to other nations. That is advanced. Material development I shouldn't even have to discuss, we are highly industrialized and have come a long way in developing methods of production and manufacturing goods in over 200 years. America has been pioneering music, theater, and other forms of art for many years, and for science, we have invented many other things including some that were not invented by Thomas Edison (airplane, transister, microwave, CD, camera, and I could go on and on). We have many books and other ways of storing information, and we keep very detailed records (sometimes too detailed, lol), so I think we more than qualify on that. We have an advanced political system that many nations have copied to a certain extent, as well as an advanced social system.

Does America meet the criteria for the definition of a civilization? I think so.

 

[Sgt.Hellfish]

To Be honest Britain probably has the best trained army allthough its equipment problems seem to arise every time they go for a jog lol. For that argument all you have to do is compare the SAS or SBS with Delta and you see how much better they are (no offence to Delta and its accomplishments of course)

 

[Angelscotboi]

Argh im not going to argue with certain stupid and arrogant americans any more.

I hate to break it to you all but the USA has invented about as much as my mother - and improves about as much as my father (both completely hopeless people).

Heres the reason why no one from outside the US consideres the US to be a Civilization and why barely anyone outside the US can stand it!
The arrogance!

Believe me if the USA retreated back into isolationism there would be world wide celebrations.

The US likes to take credit for the worlds accomplishments so we will be glad to get them back.

I will again point out the only thing the US provides to world research is funds, because most of the scientists and companies working on modern research are non-americans.
Doctor Wakefield and his research into the MMR vaccine and its possible repercussions is a good example - a Brit who has to use US money to fund his research.

The USA can not claim that they invented everything - which they do - just because they put up the money for it - but they will anyway.

And Nav i must have missed where American culture was permeating the world?
Lets see - lets go to Japan. American culture there? No thats Japanese culture thats everywhere there...
China? Nope its the Chinese/Taiwanese culture there...
India? Nope a combination of Indian/British culture is about there...
Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc? Nope no American culture welcomed down there...the only vestige of the West down there is the remnants of British culture...
Australia? No thats, Australian amazingly enough.
Anywhere in south America besides Puerto Rico and Panama? No they all pretty much hate the USA...
The Middle East? No again they pretty much hate the USA...and in Iraq where the USA is trying to force their way of life on the Iraqis it isnt going so well for the USA...
Former Soviet Union territories? Again no...they are moving more towards a pro-European Union anti-USA stance, American "culture" is rejected there too...
Anywhere in Africa? No the northern half is Muslim and they pretty much hate the USA...and the Southern half is too busy fighting amongst themselves, and worrying about AIDS, to care about the USA much...
Canada? No they pretty much have their own culture descended as a mix of British and French...
Europe? No the majority of mainland Europe pretty much seriously dislikes the USA also, Britain is the USAs only friend here...
Britain? The only place in the world where u could possibly claim to say that American culture is making inroads, but then we remember that the majority of the British people would just as soon abandon the USA so we werent seen as a poddle to Washington anymore, so you have to think the USA aint doing to well here either.

So where is American culture influential?
Id say apart from in countries so poor that they cant do anything but be dependant on the USA, absolutely no where.
Only the USA believes it is a civilization with a strong culture.
The rest of the world pretty much disagrees and is pretty much getting sick of getting told what to do by the USA - and getting the USA trying to shove its ideas down our throats.

That hardly seems influential and strong. It seems more like a bad joke.

To be considered a civilization a country must have done something notable to impact the world in which we live.
And quite frankly the USA hasnt. You claim you have but as i said before all the USA does is put up money for other people to do things and then takes credit for it.

No the USA is not a civilization and does not deserve the space it takes up in Civ 3.
But again I will state that I would not remove the USA from the game simply because Civ 3 wouldnt be the same without a USA in it.

Depending on the nation I play I do many things to a USA AI Civ :- if i am England I like to ally with them, just cos its convienient and they make pretty good cannon fodder during wars; if i am any other European nation I like to have trade wars with them and bully them into a secondary position; and if i am one of the rest of the world civilizations i like to destroy them completely.

So the USA would stay if only to serve as a lapdog, punch bag, or useful place to take over.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by lmsw08233


Calgacus thats a good point about the Aztecs and Incans - I conceed to you that yes they lasted about the same length as the USA has, but I also put to you that the Aztecs and Incans had a rich culture all their own whereas the USA does not.
The USA culture as it were is nothing more than a "melting pot" of ideas and cultures from all over the world.
I stand by my conclusion that the USA is in Civ because it is needed to boost sales.

Nah, the Incas and "Aztecs" had origins elsewhere just like every other society in history. The USA is a melting pot, just like most other cultures but to a greater degree, but it is another thing to conclude from this that it does not possess its own identity.

Originally posted by lmsw08233


I stand by my conclusion that the USA is in Civ because it is needed to boost sales.

Well, the developers are not trained historians, unlike myself . The USA's supreme role in the modern world certainly get it a place in my book.

Originally posted by lmsw08233

Japan has had a bigger impact on the world than the USA because of one thing - the fact that the USA kicked the crap out of them in WW2 and forbade them from having an offensive army.
.

That's why Japan has had a bigger impact? I'm sorry, I don't get you

Originally posted by lmsw08233

The energies they used to expend on warfare had to go somewhere so they channelled it into their ingrained creative psyche - and as a result many great companies and great inventions for which you Americans love to claim as your own inventions, has popped up.
Any field which a Japanese company enters into - in any industry - the Japanese company will out perform, and generally outclass its US competitors. IE Xbox vs Playstation 2.

Japan is an insular civilization with little historical impact on the world. The USA has been everywhere already. The US is already more than a decade ahead in military technology than its neighbours. The US got the first man on the moon, built the first nuclear weapon and have led the world in scientific achievements for the last half century. American culure is everywhere. Where can you go and not find coca-cola or a macdonalds?
The internet and microsoft are both basically American products. The modern world wouldn't exist without America. Take away Japan from history - that's fine. Take away America...we're in a totally different world!

Originally posted by lmsw08233

you Americans

I'm not American

 

[Finmaster]

It's funny how Americans think that their culture has spread everywhere because people drink Coca-Cola.

People in USA are talking to Finnish Nokia-phones, as we've seen in many movies. But we don't claim that the Finnish culture has taken over the entire world because of it, now do we? You don't hear us saying, "Where-ever you go you can find people talking to Nokia telephones - therefore, our culture has spread all over the world!!"

USA couldn't even get independence without putting up a huge fight, u little fighters, you!

Norway could! They drifted away from Sweden in 1905 without any blodshed! Therefore, USA should be replaced with Norway in civ 3!

No, I'm serious!

..okay, I'm not. But still. Finland rocks. All the other nations suck. Period.

 

[Finmaster]

By the way, Naervod, a few words about your "advanced" political system: USA is propably the only democracy in the world which doesn't follow the so-called "parlamentiary principals" of modern democracy. That's fine by me, do what you want, but don't claim that your system which dates back to 1776 would be very "advanced".

By the way, in case you don't know (you propably don't since you think that your system is advanced), the "parliamentary principals" mean that your government is directly responsible for your parliament - or in USA's case, congress. This is the "modern" democratic system developed during the late 20th and early 21st century and is being applied in nearly all democratic nations.

I'm not saying that your political system is worse. I'm just saying that it's older. I don't see how it would be very advanced.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Finmaster
It's funny how Americans think that their culture has spread everywhere because people drink Coca-Cola.

Err...Finnmaster, you'll find that is merely one example of many.

And I'm not a ****ing American!

 

[Finmaster]

Yes, calgacus, you just keep telling yourself that.

And don't forget our Nokia

 

[Jason The King]

Originally posted by lmsw08233
Argh im not going to argue with certain stupid and arrogant americans any more.

And im not in the mood to argue with certain foriegners who are blinded by the fact, from their fellow people and the anti-american feeling, which is jealousy subcontiously, that America is just as great as anyother country.

I hate to break it to you all but the USA has invented about as much as my mother - and improves about as much as my father (both completely hopeless people).

Did you not see the inventions naervod listed? And you call Americans arrogant?

The US likes to take credit for the worlds accomplishments so we will be glad to get them back.

I will again point out the only thing the US provides to world research is funds, because most of the scientists and companies working on modern research are non-americans.
Doctor Wakefield and his research into the MMR vaccine and its possible repercussions is a good example - a Brit who has to use US money to fund his research.

The USA can not claim that they invented everything - which they do - just because they put up the money for it - but they will anyway.

Again, did you see what naervod wrote?

And Nav i must have missed where American culture was permeating the world?
Lets see - lets go to Japan. American culture there? No thats Japanese culture thats everywhere there...
China? Nope its the Chinese/Taiwanese culture there...
India? Nope a combination of Indian/British culture is about there...
Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc? Nope no American culture welcomed down there...the only vestige of the West down there is the remnants of British culture...
Australia? No thats, Australian amazingly enough.
Anywhere in south America besides Puerto Rico and Panama? No they all pretty much hate the USA...
The Middle East? No again they pretty much hate the USA...and in Iraq where the USA is trying to force their way of life on the Iraqis it isnt going so well for the USA...
Former Soviet Union territories? Again no...they are moving more towards a pro-European Union anti-USA stance, American "culture" is rejected there too...
Anywhere in Africa? No the northern half is Muslim and they pretty much hate the USA...and the Southern half is too busy fighting amongst themselves, and worrying about AIDS, to care about the USA much...
Canada? No they pretty much have their own culture descended as a mix of British and French...
Europe? No the majority of mainland Europe pretty much seriously dislikes the USA also, Britain is the USAs only friend here...
Britain? The only place in the world where u could possibly claim to say that American culture is making inroads, but then we remember that the majority of the British people would just as soon abandon the USA so we werent seen as a poddle to Washington anymore, so you have to think the USA aint doing to well here either.

hmm, the whole idea about democracy was first brought on by our culture. The many democracies of the world are because of America in the cold war. And the internet, microsoft.

AND BASEBALL IS A COMMON GAME IN JAPAN - AN AMERICAN TRADITION

What traditions have other countries spread elsewhere? And then tell me how America is less.

So where is American culture influential?
Id say apart from in countries so poor that they cant do anything but be dependant on the USA, absolutely no where.
Only the USA believes it is a civilization with a strong culture.
The rest of the world pretty much disagrees and is pretty much getting sick of getting told what to do by the USA - and getting the USA trying to shove its ideas down our throats.

Im sorry, how do you speak for the rest of the world? Maybe those who are shown on t.v. who wrote about in newspapers don't like the USA, but what about the rest of the world? Have you ever heard that the media only shows things that are exciting and gets it to sell? Would people who are content with the US, going to work everyday and leading a normal life be good news? No. Its the people in the street burning the American flag who are the ones that make news. So until you go to a country, you definately can not speak for them.

To be considered a civilization a country must have done something notable to impact the world in which we live.
And quite frankly the USA hasnt. You claim you have but as i said before all the USA does is put up money for other people to do things and then takes credit for it.

Haha, you truly aren't someone who can see past your nose. America has redefined the world with democracy, with economy, and scientific achievements listed by naervod.

Depending on the nation I play I do many things to a USA AI Civ :- if i am England I like to ally with them, just cos its convienient and they make pretty good cannon fodder during wars; if i am any other European nation I like to have trade wars with them and bully them into a secondary position; and if i am one of the rest of the world civilizations i like to destroy them completely.

Why are you telling us this? It has nothing to do with the conversation.

 

[erez87]

France invented Democracy not you.
Thinking about it, ancient Athense invented it not you.

USA belong to civ cause today they are prety much controllers of the world. I find most of the civs in CIV3 to be civs that controlled the known wrld to their time...
USA is not a civ. They were united staters that settled the eastern coasts of North America... Thise were dutch, british and Spanish...

 

[Jason The King]

Originally posted by erez87
France invented Democracy not you.
Thinking about it, ancient Athense invented it not you.

If we still used the form of "democracy" created by the Atheneans, we would be in deep ****.

France modeled their constitutions AFTER Americas. The French Revolution was mostly after the American one.

And I never said America invented Democracy. America simply redefined it, made it better.

USA is not a civ. They were united staters that settled the eastern coasts of North America... Thise were dutch, british and Spanish...

And so the same thing you could say about Britain (though with different contributers), Spain, Russia, and most of all the European civilizations. Theres is very few civilizations in the world that are purely one race. And who said that makes a people a civilization?

 

[Sgt.Hellfish]

the whole idea about democracy was first brought on by our culture


America and France both did not invent democracy there was a democracy in ancient Rome and Greece

 

[erez87]

Uh? Spain did came and settled Spain... were they were more vandals and German barbarians (and Rummanian barbarians)

Did you knew Fench people are just Western Rummanians?
And England is Germans!?

 

[Jason The King]

Originally posted by Sgt.Hellfish

America and France both did not invent democracy there was a democracy in ancient Rome and Greece

Who the hell said America invented Democracy?! I said that America redefined it and spread it.

 

[Jason The King]

Originally posted by erez87
Uh? Spain did came and settled Spain... were they were more vandals and German barbarians (and Rummanian barbarians)

Did you knew Fench people are just Western Rummanians?
And England is Germans!?

A mix, my point exactly.

 

[erez87]

In the end we are all from Africa.
So only Zulu can be counted as a Civilization

 

[Volum]

Originally posted by Finmaster

Norway could! They drifted away from Sweden in 1905 without any blodshed! Therefore, USA should be replaced with Norway in civ 3!

AMEN!

 

[Oruc]

lol France wasnt a democracy, it was dictarorship, the guy before Napoleon was a dictator and so was Napoleon.

oh yeah and how the hell is Baseball a tradition??? its just rounders

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Support Norway for a civ!

Originally posted by Jason The King
Edit: Yes, the United States of 1940's made the UN, not the United States now. Two different times and two different people, erez.

Oh, if it's a different country after 60 years, what does that say about the "test of time"?
I don't believe its stood the ToT if it just redefines itself every time the world changes.

Originally posted by Jason The King
France modeled their constitutions AFTER Americas. The French Revolution was mostly after the American one.

Well, a lot of the American constitution was written by who? Benjamin Franklin.
And he spent a lot of his life in France, which was apparently his inspiration for most of that.

I'm not saying who was first, just that the waters there are very muddy.

Originally posted by Jason The King
Many could argue the culture of the USA. Yes it is a blend, but how does that not make it a culture of America? It is. The culture of hamburgers, barbeques, hollywood, Democratic qualities, industrious manner, disneyland, and we have music as well.

Oh, sounds like you're defining culture as "everything from within a certain geographic area" when you say that the blend doesn't matter.
Define culture, if you please.



*looks at self*
... ...
Oh dear. I'm descended to arguing something as incredibly useless, pointless, impossible to agree on, correct-answer-less as this thread.
...
Let's hope everybody can retain that same spirit, so we can flame without getting modded.


Edit: Add: I'm trying more to muddy the waters than get an answer, because this debate is funny.

Edit2: Add: Look at my new sig!

Edit3: Recruit the Canadians and Mexicans to lobby for America to get renamed USA in Civ3!!

 

[IceEye]

LoL america has no history. Sweden has forts that has been manned since before you guys even existed.

About norway: Sweden choose not to intervene. There was swedish troop gatherings at the border you know. Had I been there I would have attacked definitely. We could really use the oil

America: Not the best trained or best equipped. And britains soldiers best trained? I don´t think so. And comparing special forces to each other to determine the training or experience of an entire army is just stupid. Americas "democracy" by 1776 was not a democracy.

Swedens constitution or system is alot different from americas, For good and bad. But the problem you americans have is that you are arrogant and keep putting your noses were they don´t belong.