Naval Dutch Unique unit

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by Dargoth
The Top picture looks like a Frigate and the Bottom one looks like a Merchantmen neither of which arem Unique to the Dutch

No offense, but you're wrong. I can assure you that the first one is not a frigate (frigates being slightly smaller and carrying fewer guns), but rather a 'ship of the line'. The second one is not a merchantman, but rather a dedicated vessel purposebuilt for the East Indies trade with a deep draft and more heavily armed than your average merchantman (I don't carry guns ).

See, I did do the research before posting . Moreover, many countries did have their ships built by the Dutch as we were quite simply the best at it for quite some time. Czar Peter the Great for example in fact came to live in the Netherlands for several years in order to learn about the shipbuilding trade.

 

[Dargoth]

Considering they didnt produce ships on a Production line, what ship is and is not a certain class is rather Vague. Condsidering the top ship has 2 rows of cannons Id say its a warship and it resembles a Frigate.

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by Dargoth
Considering they didnt produce ships on a Production line, what ship is and is not a certain class is rather Vague. Condsidering the top ship has 2 rows of cannons Id say its a warship and it resembles a Frigate.

You can't have it both ways, first saying that which ship is what class is rather vague and then classifying it anyway.
However, the fact remains that the 'Zeven Provinciën' was a Ship of the Line, as it had two gun decks whereas a frigate tended to have one gun deck and occasionally a lighter battery on the upper deck. The 'Zeven Provinciën' also had 80 guns, as opposed to the usual 50 or so on a frigate (data from Dictionary.com among others). The classes are quite distinct here.

 

[Strik]

I personally think the Swiss mercenary is the worst chosen UU in Civ 3. Simply because all wars in Europe were fought using mercenaries until the invention of nationalism. That The Dutch used mercenaries was known to me, but in my history lessons on school it never mentioned swiss mercenaries. In fact I never heard of swiss mercenaries until a few days ago. As well as all other Dutch posters on this forum.

Conclusion: Big mistake by Atari, which sadly is too late to change

 

[Dargoth]

The Swiss Mercenary should be a semi generic unit avaliable to the European Civs, along with the Geonose Crossbowmen and the Genoese Bombarder

 

[troytheface]

Well i have never heard of a great Dutch invented ship. I have heard of Swiss mercenaries. Based on the definition of "Unique"
I'd say ol Swiss pike was an inspired choice. They found a way to get that group in. I could see a Dutchman wanting a Dutch unit in though, i mean we do have pride -I am not sure how i would feel if the American UU was a German Mercenary ..what were those called Husshen or something...?...but by the same token, in retropect an early husshen (sp) would have been preferable to
the f15 ...A kid would want to see something that is of their own country and maybe some Dutch kid may feel left out a bit and that ain't good...I'd say this...Dutch were smart and powerful and had some killer painters..hire some ol Mercenaries for the footsoldier stuff anyway and keep our cool troops on board ships or running business....

 

[Loaf Warden]

'Hessians'. And they fought for the British against the Americans, but that's still a good point. Nothing says 'Netherlands' like a good old fashioned Swiss Mercenary. Mercenaries were used by everyone in those days; it hardly has anything to do with Dutch national identity that they may have gotten more from Switzerland than other nations did. Who cares where their mercenaries were coming from? It would be far more befitting Dutch history and national identity as the greatest seafaring nation of the early modern world if they were given a naval UU. The navy was everything to the Dutch in those days. Their ships were the core of their empire, and thus much of their wealth. I can see giving the Portuguese a naval UU--they were great mariners in their day as well, of course--but to then give the Dutch a land unit of Swiss origin is ridiculous.

 

[Schmek]

The navy is still everything to the dutch!!!
Atleast in my opinion.

 

[troytheface]

lol. ah. ol hessians...i thought a german drilled the troops at Valley Forge and read there were mercenaries that fought on the american side as well..thnx..

 

[NHJ BV]

I agree. The Dutch hegemony in the 17th century was based 100% on sea trade.

 

[Dargoth]

Has anyone seen a good icon that could represent the Cargo Fluyt?

 

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Loaf Warden
'Hessians'. And they fought for the British against the Americans, but that's still a good point. Nothing says 'Netherlands' like a good old fashioned Swiss Mercenary. Mercenaries were used by everyone in those days; it hardly has anything to do with Dutch national identity that they may have gotten more from Switzerland than other nations did. Who cares where their mercenaries were coming from? It would be far more befitting Dutch history and national identity as the greatest seafaring nation of the early modern world if they were given a naval UU. The navy was everything to the Dutch in those days. Their ships were the core of their empire, and thus much of their wealth. I can see giving the Portuguese a naval UU--they were great mariners in their day as well, of course--but to then give the Dutch a land unit of Swiss origin is ridiculous.

Couldn't agree with you more. The Swiss pikeman is a good unit, but not a UU for any civ. Especially a civ like the Dutch which has lot's of good (naval) choices for UUs.
The Swiss could be some sort of unit every European nation could hire or build.
The Dutch had a large empire in Indonesia, had founded one of the most important cities of the modern world (NYC), had the most powerful fleet for quite some time in the 17th century, discovered Australia, New Zealand and many other lands, and so on. All these things made it possible for the Dutch to be important enough to be in C3C. None of these things had anything to do with a guy from the Alpes, and everything to do with naval power.

It also beats me that the Dutch aren't commercial, although there are good reasons for Dutch to have seafaring and agriculture. Commercial seems more logical to me then agriculture.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Originally posted by Tavenier

It also beats me that the Dutch aren't commercial, although there are good reasons for Dutch to have seafaring and agriculture. Commercial seems more logical to me then agriculture.

I thought the same thing. When I think of the Netherlands, agriculture is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind. Maybe this shows some kind of bias on my part, but the first things that comes to mind when I think of the Netherlands are the merchant ships and ruling merchant class that made her such a wealthy nation during her Golden Age. I mean, I won't say Agricultural doesn't fit the Netherlands--it does--but surely Commercial and Seafaring would be the more obvious choice, the more 'Dutch-flavored' choice, if you will. Ah, well. That's what the Editor is for. I guess we should just be thankful they made William of Orange the ruler instead of Louis Bonaparte.

 

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Loaf Warden


I thought the same thing. When I think of the Netherlands, agriculture is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind. Maybe this shows some kind of bias on my part, but the first things that comes to mind when I think of the Netherlands are the merchant ships and ruling merchant class that made her such a wealthy nation during her Golden Age. I mean, I won't say Agricultural doesn't fit the Netherlands--it does--but surely Commercial and Seafaring would be the more obvious choice, the more 'Dutch-flavored' choice, if you will. Ah, well. That's what the Editor is for. I guess we should just be thankful they made William of Orange the ruler instead of Louis Bonaparte.

Or Syess-Inquart!

 

[Sarevok]

William of orange is a good choice

 

[Tavenier]

Originally posted by Sarevok
William of orange is a good choice

Yes, of course. We were just kidding with the other names. William of Orange started our war of independence and is the founder of the family which today still sits on the throne of the Netherlands.
The only alternatives I could think of are Johan van Olde Barneveldt and Johan de Witt.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Yeah, Seyss-Inquart would have been good, too.

Back to seriousness, though, you don't think Frederick Henry would have worked? I always thought he was a pretty good candidate for ruler of a Dutch civ, though I absolutely agree with their having given it to William of Orange.

 

[Tavenier]

Hmm, the son of William. He had a major influence too. But not more then his father, because he started the whole thing.
He would make a good choice for a Great Leader. His alias was Stedendwinger, which in English would mean something like City-forcer. He forced cities to choose sides between him and Spain. He also became Stadtholder for almost all provinces and admiral-general of the navy.

 

[Sarevok]

sadly i dont know a whole lot about the netherlands and their people. i only really know what they did in history.

 

[pawpaw]

or prince maurice-son of william?