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[BTS] NC 2017: Lincoln the Liberator

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tobiyogi, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Dear Civfanatics,

    the NC 217 is supposed to be loaded with big synergies between Leader, Map type and extra Challenge.
    And once again, we want our game to reflect the real historical actions that made our leader so big.

    Most of you know Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) only as a notorious wimp who is usually attacked in the early game by some horse-stable-smelling Ghengis or the conditioned Shaka-Bulldog (if not by the human player himself). But every little child knows that he was the driving force behind the emancipation movement (nothing to do with the parity of men/women but with the “liberation of men from someone else's hand”).

    He took a firm stand against slavery that represented at the time the most important economic pillar especially for the farmers. He did not believe, bye the way, in a successful integration of former black slaves into American society, so his solution after the liberation consisted in sending those men back to their countries of origin. There exist until today some wannabe-historians who consider him therefore a “racist” and “segregationist”.

    And we are going to do the same? YES. We wanna become Secretary-General of the UN and abolish slavery once and for all by official vote. And why not, in the same breath, winning a diplo game? As this is a long road to travel, we must begin already earlier to set a good example. That means:
    • The first time you switch out of "Slavery" (to whatever civic is available at the moment), you can never go back.
    • You are allowed to swing back ONCE to "Serfdom" (if you really want to), but that's all.
    Let's talk about synergies. There is no other leader and map that could be more adapted to this challenge. The CHA trait helps us to raise the happy cap in the cities, the PHI trait makes it much more appealing to let the citizens do a specialist job instead of whipping them away. The Arboria map does not only keep the cities healthy, it also provides enough chops in every new town. So the slavery tool, that is almost essential for the basic build-up in new settlements, can be more easily replaced by several guaranteed chops.

    Bye the way, the map has been regenerated once and is completely uncooked. I don't even know who else is there. I just know that there will be a lot of those sweet 3:food:1:hammers: Deer tiles you can also settle on!

    Our starting techs Agri/Fishing will be certainly of some use if you take a look at the starting position:

    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    However, the UU (Navy Seal = marine with "march" + 1-2 first strikes) follows a completely different techpath than Mass Media (= United Nations) while the UB (Mall = Supermarket +20% :commerce:) is only one tech away from Electricity and can come into play.

    And here comes the last part. To compensate a little bit for the loss of slavery, I have gifted Democracy to the human player (while Lincoln is patting on my back....) This last modification is written into the “challenge saves” that come w/o huts + events in order to prevent the game from becoming too imbalanced. "Emancipation" will help to grow cottages faster, especially when there is no way to enslave those poor countrymen. US, Security bureau and Statue of Lib. are certainly only for much later!

    ! Don't forget to give the barbs their appropriate starting techs, I am sure you know how that works !

    Have fun and remember you don't have to play peacefully at all! No matter how much someone hates you, having become your vassal, he must vote for you!
     

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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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  2. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    It's not NC 2017, but 217, freshly from November 2019! I don't find a way to edit the title.
     
  3. earthy

    earthy Chieftain

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    Looking at the screenshot its a very awkward start. If we go worker first and research hunting, the worker has nothing to do after improving the deer. If we go mining/BW, the worker will have nothing to do for quite a few turns, and then all he can do is chop out a workboat or settler. We could workboat first, but that will really delay expansion with a meager +2 food on the clams. To be fair though the commerce seems like it will be necessary on this start. Tough decisions. I think warrior has to move 1sw and we pray for an agriculture resource

    edit-meant 1SE
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Difficult to see from the screenshot, but settle on the deer might be an option.
    BW first, build a workboat while growing and then whip out a worker perhaps.
     
  5. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Warrior goes on the hill next to the settler, but I am already decided to settle on the deer. Starting with fishing in a commerce-poor environment means that I do not want to miss the coast/crab. Also quicker worker, the deer should give 3/1/1 (hope so...).
     
  6. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Prince

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    For the record, settling on flatland grass Deer will give you a 3/1/1 city. Anything else (plains, tundra, hill) will only give you 2/1/1 (barring plains hill of course, which gets 2/2/1).
     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler To T18 :


    So, after initially moving settler to the deer, warrior reveals even more deer, wet corn and silver.
    A PH is placed reasonable and I get the upper hand over my obsession over riverside/coastal/freshwater access and make the decision to move inland. This move also saves the deer, which isn't anything to sneeze at, as it's a 6 yield tile.
    (This decision I will be very happy about in a few turns...)
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    Lizzy meets me.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    And I meet WvO. Having a settler party from a Cre leader comming your way is never a happy sight. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    The same turn WvO settles, Lizzy settles in my face. Extremly annoying as this shuts of one vector of expansion for me. However their exact sites also makes me somewhat secure long term for their culture pressure and border tension, as they can't settle more right in my face.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    Zara comes along with an archer, so he is also nearby. Is this a small map perhaps?
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Site 1S of silk is almost necessery to unload some of the overabundance of food in this capital. A OK helper city can be settled 3W of capital and help with those riverside cottages. Was thinking that capital culture would gain the clam, but thats not so. Northern city probably have to forgoe freshwater to and be placed with clam in first ring.
    Feeling very squeezed here, hoping for copper because I already want to chop out axes and get some breathing room.

    Have to think abit about how to get settler(s) out in the fastest way here. Silver guarantees that I can catch up later, but I really really need some space.
    Not sure I dare to wait for pop3 to start settler, might put a few turns into it now, and then grow in 3 turns once deer is improved?
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    As for the challenge... I already feel that I have my own chains to break here, and with this amount of food I'll likely whip all the way up until tactical nukes. :)

     
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  8. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Your settling @krikav seems very advanced and adapted to a deity game (avoid the coast, grab more land). At least in your capitol, the slaves won't get much rest.
    And it is a standard map with almost 800 land tiles. Arboria is like a very green pangea surrounded by water
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Tobiyogi

    Spoiler :

    The settlement of capital was more about getting early silver and saving a deer, but generally it's good to claim more land if you can.
    On this map, it was very good!

     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler To T39 :


    Did some counting (pen&paper) and this is the solution I ended up with.
    First 1 turn into settler (as that catches the 1 hammer overflow), then 2 turns growing on warrior.
    Then one turn growing on warrior with improved deer. Reaching pop3 in 4 turns, but have also spent one turn building settler.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    Result:
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    Continuing settler at pop3 with almost empty food bar.
    Western warrior has found a very nice city spot that I'll try get first.
    Lizzy settled city #3 this turn which feels kind of crazy. I guess these 3F1H deer supercharges the AIs somehow.
    But that deer/corn site is still not taken, and I should be able to get it.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Zara is also right in my face, also a Cre AI. Alot of pain is comming my way. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    Sloppy screenshot, I catch the overflow with another settler. Not a warrior.
    Takes a long while for the settler to reach that sweet spot.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    A fish up north. Close to Zara, probably too greedy but I'm thinking here I should put a city 2N, so I can squeeze in two cities in this area. I'm almost sure he will claim the fish and steal it from me if I don't though..
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    Did some counting here, figured out that I would lose a turn by letting city grow, but I gain enough to justify the settler one turn later.
    Turns out though, that I would probably have been saved by a chop anyway...
    Oh well, cheers to overthinking!
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    This feels veeeery good. This shelters room for two cities.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    Settler is out, and I'm revolting. There is a combat1 barb archer up in the area (killed Zaras scout) so 3 warriors are moving there to secure it.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    Ofcourse it stands in the most annoying location possible, so I have to reroute settler and lose a turn.
    The warrior wins at 50% odds though. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler To T59 :


    Here I probably get abit greedy, and decide to try settle this city here as a blocker. I was hoping this would stop Zara from trying to get the fish as that would secure me 3 cities here. (It did not).
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG

    Corn/Deer city whips it's own worker, usually not the best way to get a worker to a new city, but the 3F1H deers change that abit, also the long travel distance through the forest speaks in favour of this approach.
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG


    Settlement of Philadelphia was also too greedy. It's the best spot as it can take both deer+corn, and I was thinking that the capitals culture would help it. But I underestimated the power of Cre culture...
    Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG

    Here comes the fish-thief. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG

    @ Pottery. I should probably have just waited with settling Atlanta here, and wait for the workboat from New York to arrive first, would have gotten me to Myst earlier.
    Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG

    This is really worrisome, one more warrior enters the city next turn and drop the odds to 3%
    Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG

    Chopping the forests before Zara gets them.
    Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG

    The God of Judaism is kind to me, I get VERY good religion autospread.
    Lizzy converts the same turn as I do, so all my neighbours are Jewish now, very very good.

    Civ4ScreenShot0027.JPG
    This reminds me of a game where I was in semi-iso with Ramesses and wanted to buddy up with him. Didn't get religion autospread untill like 1AD.
    But sometimes rng works your way. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG



     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T63 Situation+overview :


    At T63, I have finally snailed my way to mysticism.
    I feel like I have managed to carve out a decent chunk of land, something I was very worried I would not be able to do.
    Was thinking of making a run for that southern fish to, but I'm not sure.
    The two inner cities I have to wait abit with setteling, but I probably have to build the settlers and keep an eye out for a settler party from Lizzy.

    I have room to settle a gift city in the east, to make either WvO or Zara like me more (or possilbly squeeze in some other AI there to create some diplomatic tension).

    Other than that, it's just to get monuments up, grow cities to happycap, connect resources, lay down cottages and try to get economy up and running.
    I do think that straight for writing is best, but I'm also contemplating meditation->priesthood, to get a discount for writing, and also pave way to CoL.
    Having the monesteries and temples to build as I snail my way onwards makes for decent hammer-sinks, and I think it's a decent chance that WvO will build the AP.

    Longer term plan is to go for CoL as trade bait for math/alfa/IW, and later to bulb philosophy.


    1 AI is still missing, and Asoka is either waring with that AI or he is plotting. Diplo feels safe and I might have the option to just tech my way to lib with this empire.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG

     
  13. timmy827

    timmy827 King

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    Question about the challenge idea: we are allowed to switch into Slavery once and stay in as long as we like, just no returning to it after one switch out?
     
  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I'm up at T121 now, things are going Lincolns way.

    Spoiler To T92 :


    Road to Lizzy and open borders yield 4 commerce, dearly needed!
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Asoka who has been plotting for some time declares on Wilhelm. And Lizzy shows a settler party. That was expected as she have had her chariot stationary 1E of that clam for a few turns now.
    A settler is done in Philadelphia.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


    I was abit worried here, that she might move and settle where she stands now the turn before me, and I was contemplating settling there myself last turn. But that would have given me room for one less city, and I would have had to wait a long time for the clams.
    That she had her chariot stationary there gave me the courage needed to wait.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Zara gets writing and we get open borders, eager to scout the border cities as he is showing a red fist. But all things look clam and nice.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    This was a pleasant suprise, I trade med+priesthood for writing and gain a whole lot of turns!
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    T80, Zara spawns a great general, so he is in a war with the unknown AI, this makes me almost entierly safe (Worst enemy of Sully though.)
    I could liberate this city to Wilhelm, but I thought that would gain him too much, as he would then be able to get speedy growth from the deers.
    Could not get liberation bonus with Zara.
    Was kind of hoping that I could gift this to Sully, but he wasn't willing to accept it. So I gave it to Lizzy, +4 fair trade is nice, and this city will only be a money sink for her and possibly cause some diplo tension between her and the other AIs.
    As she is not CRE, I'll be able to chop that forest next turn.
    Also note that cities are working whatever available food there is, I want to grow to whip libraries asap.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    WvO asks me to join his war against Asoka, no thanks...
    Also meet Kublai who is weak and most peoples worst enemy. Not sure what I think about Zara gaining over him... I'm contemplating Zara as first target for diplomatic reasons (Lizzy+WvO+Asoka all love free religion, so could be nice to keep them as allies while sweeping the map clockwise.).

    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG


    T85
    Kublai finishes Pyramids, and I get sailing for med+prist with WvO.

    T87 Lizzy gets currency, I beg 50g.
    Wilhelm is 5T away from Theology, very good, that increases odds for a Jewish AP, and that will be glorious with my numerous temples/monesteries.

    T88 Zara founds Christianity, and Wilhelm stop teching Theo. No problem, Zara is also Jewish.

    T89 my GSci spawns, was not planning for an academy but I think it makes sense.
    Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG

    Sully beats me to CoL by a pair of turns, thats no big problem though, he isn't really liked by many and is unlikely to start spreading around my valuable trading chip.
    Noone else seem to be teching CoL as I have full trading value for it.
    Sully+Kublai hates Lizzy, and WvO hates Asoka...
    Civ4ScreenShot0027.JPG
    Empire overview at CoL. Starting to gain alot of culture on that northern fish. Have just whipped the monestery there too. Was planning on whipping library in seattle and then swap to HR+Caste, but things didn't turn out that way.

    Teching AH now to check for horses, and there was none so I start to plan for a cannon powered attack instead.
    Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG

     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T113 :


    No horses.
    Was hoping that someone would get some cash, but no.
    Now I want to put some turns into currency to get that, but I need to get math or alfa for that.

    I trade CoL for monarchy with WvO, and CoL for math (+10g) with Zara.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG

    T96 Beg 40g from Zara. (Cash is good!)

    T97 I have about 250 beakers into currency when I can finally trade it. Now with Asoka who have gotten it. The trade was fair enough that I didn't get diplo hit with WvO.

    I needed the stuff, and this trade seemed fair enough. Only got me a single -1 with... Think it was Zara.
    Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG

    And there is iron available! Woo hoo!
    Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG

    Thats one very late GLH.
    Now GLH at Zaras place, and Pyramids up at Kublais, this paired with the 3 AI block who loves free religion is starting to crystalize the plan.
    Attack Zara, continue with Kublai and then possibly Sully.
    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG

    So lovely with AIs lacking iron, they pay alot for it. Nice with horses but now I'm conflicted... Dangerous to plan for cuirs and being dependant on one AI trading you horses...
    I also pop a GSci T100, bulb philo and revolt (1 turn) into caste+pacifism. Revolt into hereditary rule will have to wait until CS is done.
    Civ4ScreenShot0042.JPG

    I finally get that fish.
    Civ4ScreenShot0044.JPG

    T105 CS is in, can't revolt yet though.
    I trade CS for aestethics+construction with Elizabeth.
    WvO is going CS too, so I trade for calendar+110g with him.
    Civ4ScreenShot0047.JPG

    Paper is in one GSci ready to bulb education, 2 turns until next one is ready.
    Redirecting beaker overflow into poly to stall for a turn.
    Civ4ScreenShot0051.JPG

    Some AIs are getting paper by themselves, and I'm dropping it like a hot rock. Get some maps and MC+feud by some brokering. I also get circumnavigation from Asokas map. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0053.JPG
    Only Asoka+Lizzy had litterature and I had alot of beakers overflowing from poly, also went litterature. Asoka was willing to trade marble too so I'm starting to build some and taking a shot at Music which I could get in two turns. Turns out I did get the artist. <3
    Civ4ScreenShot0054.JPG

     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler To T121 :

    WvO finishes AP and I get bonus hammers in alot of cities.
    Civ4ScreenShot0055.JPG
    Just finished compass, noone was getting it apparantly.

    Ended up with just one bulb into education, (I almost never double-bulb education, is this common or do others often double-bulb?), got almost 1700 beakers and have good raw teching power already so swapped all scientists in Atlanta to marchants instead, bulbing lib with this fellow.
    Finished GLib in capital, not a ideal position but the only city who had a chance of building it in time.
    Atlanta is sloooowly building national epic which should secure the grip of the fish and make for a decent long term great people farm.
    Wouldn't mind finishing sistine in Philadelphia. Good wonder to deny the AIs so you don't have to worry about some culture victory.
    Civ4ScreenShot0056.JPG
    Not sure how to play this most efficient. Doesn't look like there is much competition for lib, but they can be quick to catch up sometimes.
    Should probably utilize the fact that I have Lizzy at friendly, and she has zoomed of to guilds->banking, so if I can trade those I have brokering chips for a long time.
    I'm almost 100% sure she is starting education now too and that she is on her way to economics. But if I want to lib something costly like steel, I probably have to play safe abit so she doesn't close in too much and I have to panic.
    Safer to just go for MT?
    Probably time to kick in a higher gear with a GA from the music artist too.

    Pity I accepted to stop trading with Kublai, would have been nice to get machinery from him.

    Oh well, time to play one more turn, see if some trades go through, get 1 more turn toward lib and see what GPerson Atlanta spawns.
    Civ4ScreenShot0057.JPG
    Not building wealth anymore, starting to get forges up instead.
    Civ4ScreenShot0058.JPG

     
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  17. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    YES
     
  18. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    Already 9 people playing the challenge save :thumbsup:
    A new era has begun for the slaves :egypt:
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  19. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi Prince

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    I was wondering, why the f*** would Lizz settle a city like San Francisco but then I remember that SF is American and must have been a city gift from you. She's not the kind of leader who will plot on someone, is she? Did you get better trades out of her or was this meant to spread border tensions with the other guys? On that map is so much food, I guess it was not a big loss to produce that settler anyway.
     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Tobiyogi
    Spoiler :

    She does plot at pleased, all these AIs do I think?
    (No, checked, Asoka and Suleiman does not, but everyone else does.)

    But yes, I had enough production and nothing useful to do, might as well build a settler. Sometimes you can gift it to some stray AI, would have been nice to give it to Suleiman for example, but he wouldn't accept it.
    Could get liberation from WvO, but I didn't want to give him a city that close especially since his city would get speedy growth with the deers.
    Giving it to Zara was an option, but he is also Cre and that could cause me more problems.

    Giving it to Lizzy was the best choice I think. The maintenence cost slows her down abit, and she won't be able to do much with the city for a very very long time as it will be completly swamped in culture.

    Giving it to her, also takes away the possibility for WvO to settle that spot.

    Alot of tiny different reasons, no clear cut answer I'm afraid. :)
     

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