ND1: Wonderless Terra

[vovan]

You are probably right. We already have 14 cities, whereas judging by the diplomacy screen, other civs have:

Arabs - 5
Spanish - 4
Persians - 6
Russians - 4
Romans - won't talk to us
French - 3
Inca - 1

So we can probably overwhelm everybody else with production already. So it actually makes sense, I guess, to let them settle the new world and slow down their own economy. Especially since we are wonderless, and hence don't need no fancy buildings like Versailles or Forbidden Palace. Hence, it would probably hurt us more than help us to grab the majority of the new world. Still would be nice to be the first to explore it, if only to pop some of those huts. Hey, you never know, there might be a tech on one of those! Free money never hurts either, I think we have survived ever since the beginning of the war on Inca on money we've pillaged from conquered cities.

Vovan

PS: I just thought of something else, too, it might be a good idea to switch to Hinduism now. That way, the Arabs and Persians will like us more, since that's their state religion, and might be more inclined to trade us more techs. Also, we'll reveal some of the map, since they probably have some Hindu cities, and we now have a Hindu shrine.

And also another thing: we have open borders with Persians and Arabs (east of Madras). Probably a good idea to send some Keshiks into their territory, just to see what they have.

 

[ndthsmdy]

Time to implement ndthsmdy's Mongolian Recovery Plan (TM):

(0) 1390 AD: I'm going to wait until we get Banking in 3 to make tech trades. We can get Civil Service and Optics from Peter and/or Saladin now, but not without giving them military techs. Since Peter is not Hindu I'll wait to make the religion switch then too.

Take vovan's suggestion and send a couple Keshiks east. Then I spent a looong time looking over our situation. Change some builds: Madras Buddhist Temple>Rax, Calcutta Courthouse>Rax, Tiwanaku Forge>Lighthouse, New Sarai Courthouse>Lighthouse.

(1) 1400 AD: Ning Knight>Explorer, Old Sarai Harbor>Forge.

Peter cancels corn for fur deal (Editor's Note: This is the first of many times he will get sassy this turnset). He then declares war on Saladin.

Bangalore comes online, and it is almost certainly going to flip to Spain. To make matters worse, we only have a couple tiles to work to try and fight it, and they are all desert Starts Library znyway.

Now that Peter and Saladin are at war, I'm going to run 80% sci for one turn to get Banking next turn, before they get pissed at me for trading with each other.

(2) 1410 AD: Banking>Engineering. Saladin will give us fur for ivory (no). Turfan Knight>Forge. Bombay Courthouse>BUDDHIST MONASTERY (see notes below).

Incas will give us Civil Service for Banking?!? That's a 230 beaker difference! Thank you very much

Peter gives us Optics and 30 gold (all he has) for Banking. He gets a better deal than we do, but not as good as we got from HC

REVOLT TO HINDUISM. (By the way, if we ever need quick cash, we run +12 gold in anarchy )

(3) 1420 AD: Come back from Hinduism and I...REVOLT TO BUREAUCRACY. Karakorum is totally carrying the show right now, and the increased gold there will more than cancel out the maintenance cost.

(4) 1430 AD: Boom. We are now running even finances at 60% sci, and even cut a turn off our research pace

Bangalore has +2 culture per turn, so it is actually pushing back the Spanish. Notice this turn, though, the Spanish are winning the culture battle at Calcutta. Switch to Library, and will chop and emphasize production to speed process.

(5) 1440 AD: Napoleon wants us to fight Caesar (no). Machu Picchu Courthouse>Rax. Peter and Cyrus make peace, perhaps because Cyrus appears to be pretty well defended:

(6) 1450 AD: Napoleon, still crying because we didn't fight Caesar (who still won't talk to us), cancels Open Borders. Boo hoo. Beshbalik Knight>Courthouse, Ning Explorer>Caravel.

I put Calcutta to starve temporarily to shave off three turns on the Library.

(7) 1460 AD: Sassy Peter Crabbypants wants us to cancel our deals with Saladin (no). Cuzco Market>HINDU MISSIONARY, Madras Rax>Library (it is getting cultural pressure from Cyrus). Islam is founded by Caesar, hopefully so he will convert and hates us even more

Ahh, silly AI...

 

[ndthsmdy]

(8) 1470 AD: Bombay Monastery>Missionary.

(9) 1480 AD: Now Peter wants us to declare war on Saladin. Why can't the human player refuse to talk to the AI??

Someone built the Great Library in 1480 AD? We picked the wrong game to be wonderless

Cuzco Hindu Missionary>Bank, Bombay Buddhist Missionary>another one. The Buddhist guy spreads it to Turfan, the Hindu guy is on his way to Karakorum.

(10) 1490 AD: Karakorum Grocer>Bank, Old Sarai Forge>Lighthouse.

NOTES (lots of 'em):

--The following cities are being geared toward production: all 5 Indian cities, Machu and Cuzco in Incaland, and Ning and Old Sarai in the homeland. They are getting mines, farms, and (will get) plains lumbermills. CHOP GRASS FORESTS HERE to farm on. They all (I think) have Rax now, most have Forges, and will probably be the basis of our production once the production-improving techs come in. Please do not cottage these places--they don't need them. What they need is food and shields.

--Karakorum, Beshbalik, New Sarai, Tiwanaku are full-blooded commerce cities. Don't bother with workshops or watermills there. New Sarai needs some more food, Karakorum needs another cottage or two, but otherwise they're fine on improvements. Build the $-increasing buildings there.

--Our two cities with shrines (Delhi and Cuzco) are also the ones with the best production potential. They should get the $-increasing improvements, but generally be geared toward production. Delhi (cow, copper, 5 hills + the food to support it) makes my mouth water

--Bombay and Cuzco are set up as missionary factories--neither needs any other buildings for now and each can crank them out in 2 turns. We get one gold per city with these religions, so it's worth it. Cuzco is on a Bank right now, because it just got a chop and there's another one there to chop too, but after that it should go back to missionaries.

--Engineering comes in next turn. I don't have a strong preference for where to go next, although the Paper>Printing Press>Replaceable Parts>Rifles track will be pretty lucrative for us.

--Ning finishes a Caravel in 2, and there is an Explorer waiting. Go find more land (PS-Save those forests at Ning, even though they are grass, for lumbermills. Ning has enough food anyway.)

--Now that we're Hindu, Napoleon (-4), Peter (-6), and Izzy (-8) hate us. I'm actually kind of surprised none of them declared on us, but our Indian cities are all pretty prepared for that scenario. If none of them come after us, I think we'll want to go for Izzy next. Maybe one more turnset of economic rebuilding, one of buildup, then attack?

--Calcutta finishes its Library in 1. You must UNSTARVE IT IMMEDIATELY or we'll lose a pop point.

--Beshbalik and Ning are going to go into unhappiness next turn. When I try to avoid growth, the City Gov takes off a whole bunch of laborers, lowers our commerce, and we have no specialists we can make in those cities Do something about it on turn (0). Turfan is also close to unhappiness. Colosseums next in those three?

--I farmed over the Horses near Cuzco. We don't need them, and this will allow us to get farms to Cuzco/Machu.

--Bangalore is stagnant on 1 to cut the Library there from like 76 to 38 or something (working a desert hill). Take one of the Workers on Delhi right now to mine that hill.

--Sorry for the lots of notes, I spent longer than usual on these and had too many thoughts about them

 

[ndthsmdy]

Mongolia

Province #1

Province #2

Some of Arabia and Persia

Now we're kicking butt at finances too

Roster [closed]:
1) Farae (MIA)
2) vovan
3) ndthsmdy
4) hiob (up, if he's back yet)
5) Jeff1787 (on deck)

 

[vovan]

Good stuff, ndthsmdy. One thing to note, of course, is that the stats on GNP are sort of misleading, I think. We are first in those because we have most cities, but this is counting revenues, not profits, I think, so it's like, sure we have more GNP than anyone else, but we aren't necessarily making use of it all, because we have to spend a lot on maintenance.

I agree with the missionary factories. With the two holy cities, we can get +28 gpt only from religion from the cities we already have, and that's nothing to frown upon.

Also, I don't think Bangalore is going to flip, we just have to keep it well-stocked with troops. I kept it precisely to put pressure on Spain so when we attack, we have a short treck to Barcelona. I think we can pull it off, being cultural, and all. (BTW, the chance of revolt is shown when you mouse over the cultural composition on the city screen. Might be useful to consult that every now and then to see how the city is doing.)

 

[hiob]

got it....will play tonight

 

[ndthsmdy]

I kind of forgot we were cultural, so yeah, Bangalore should be fine Calcutta, though, was losing ground, hopefully the Library there will turn that around.

Just remembered: Delhi doesn't have a Rax yet. If any city needs one, it's Delhi

 

[hiob]

Turn 209 (1490 AD)
I disable the govenors in Beshbalik and Ning and activate no growth in both

Turn 210 (1500 AD)
We learn Engineering and, lacking a better idea, start Paper.
Some buildings finish and Dehli grows to 6 and i split the workergroup, but they're still working the same field.
I traded with Cyrus for furs, which allows Ning and Beshbalik to grow again.


Turn 211 (1505 AD)
Ning finishes the Caravel and grows to 13. Explorer and caravel set sail towards "the West".
Meanwhile Cyrus demands guild, but i dont think we need to please anybody and his request is declined, as are all following in the next turns.
Various builds finish and start, Dehli in particular starts a bank.
Valmiki, author of the great Hindu epic Ramayana is born in Bombay and sent towards bangalore.


Turn 212 (1510 AD)
nothing out of the ordinary


Turn 213 (1515 AD)
Paper done, Printing Press started. Science upped to 70%.


Turn 214 (1520 AD)
again nothing noteworthy


Turn 215 (1525 AD)
Cuzco finishes its bank and our net income jumps from 0 to 29.
New Sarai starts building a caravel to help us being the first civ to circumnavigate the globe


Turn 216 (1530 AD)
Valmiki finally creates a great work in Bangalore and its cultural influence grows slightly. (Not as much as i hoped and not as much as would have been needed to make Bangalore a decent city)
On the other side of the globe our expeditionary corps finally sights land and begins searching for a suitable landing site.


Turn 217 (1535 AD)
After finishing a Missionary Cuzco is ordered to build a grocer. (A stupid idea, as it will only produce 5 more gold as opposed to the 8-10 gold the missionaries, that could have been build in the same time, would have produced)


Turn 218 (1540 AD)
I start the National Epic in Karakorum.


Turn 219 (1545 AD)
nothing


Turn 220 (1550 AD)
We learn how to build printing press's and start to wonder how repairable ones could be build (Replacable Parts is started, but still vetoeable by the next player)


Pretty dull turns and because i could not get enough of them i did 11 of them. (Sorry for that, but atleast we're back on even turnnumbers now ;-))
I tried to do everything you proposed ndthsmdy, well atleast everything i could remember and thougth to be right.
I did spread or religions quite a bit, made our cities grow further, build terrainimprovements according to "the plan" and began exploring the new world.
Our economy can take some more cities now, so we could either conquer some more, or research astronomy and begin settling the new world.

 

[vovan]

Turn 218 (1540 AD)
I start the National Epic in Karakorum.

We are wonderless, man!

Our economy can take some more cities now, so we could either conquer some more, or research astronomy and begin settling the new world.

I'd say I agree with ndthsmdy: we should just build up some more troops and go to war. Let the others settle the new world.

 

[Jeff1787]

I will take my turns late tonight or tomorrow. it looks like the workers will be running out of things to do....Should I chop and put in farms?

Also, should I continue with the missionaries?

I would like to start training knights, what do you guys think?

I will immediately cancel the National Epic....

 

[Jeff1787]

I would also like your thoughts on trading world maps and open borders....I also think we can trade paper for music and drama...

 

[ndthsmdy]

Pretty dull turns

That's probably my fault We'll probably have a nice fun war for you next time around though. And now that we've got a good core, I doubt I'll find a reason to be so controlling and master plan-y again

In any event, good turns. And holy crap on the bank in Cuzco

it looks like the workers will be running out of things to do....Should I chop and put in farms?

You know what they say: if your Workers are bored, give them some conquered Spanish cities to fix up

I'm guessing (without looking at the save) that pretty much all forests we haven't chopped yet we'll want to lumber--i.e., don't farm unless that city needs the food. Doing touchup work and moving them up to descend upon Spain ought to take up most of your turns.

I would also like your thoughts on trading world maps and open borders....I also think we can trade paper for music and drama...

Nonono on the trading maps. Let those losers find the new world on their own

Of course, if you find somebody already over there, then definitely see if we can get their map.

OBs prob won't be an issue this late...the people who like us already have it with us, and the people who hate us won't want to give it to us. If you can come up with a reason why we'd want Music and/or Drama (do we have Dyes?) then trading is cool.

Also, should I continue with the missionaries?

I would like to start training knights, what do you guys think?

I think the Missionaries are more than worth it, esp. since we've already got sweet production.

Knights, Pults, a couple Maces and Pikes...most of our cities have/have almost exhausted their useful buildings by now. If you get set up and want to start our war with Spain, I say go for it. Otherwise, I'm sure vovan will do so on his first turn

[EDIT]: Be careful as you start sending troops to the Spanish front--some of our cities are dependent on the Hereditary Rule bonus to stay happy.

 

[ndthsmdy]

General Discussion Topic:

Now that Astronomy is at hand, I'm figuring once we go to war with Spain we should just keep conquering until our economy goes in the tank again. Spain (4 cities, anemic production, capturing yet another shrine) should not slow us down much. The question is what do we do after Spain.

The Incas are a joke that can be taken out whenever someone gets bored.

Cyrus is nearby, but likes us and is well defended. We should probably let him go for the moment.

Saladin is also nearby, and would be the logical choice geographically. But he also likes us, AND AS FAR AS WE KNOW IS LANDLOCKED. I hope our Keshiks are able to confirm soon if he actually is landlocked, because if he is, we should definitely save him for LAST, because there is no risk of him getting off the continent.

This leaves Peter, Napoleon, and Caesar on the eastern side of the continent. All three of them hate us, Napoleon and Caesar have been warring with each other, and Peter has lost at least two cities to Saladin/Cyrus. We have open borders with Cyrus and Saladin, so getting there would be no problem. The question is do we want to run the risk of really high distance costs. We are still a ways away from State Property (IIRC that comes in with Communism?).

Thoughts? I'm intrigued by the idea of taking on the three eastern civs, but am not sure whether it would be suicidal to our economy.

 

[vovan]

OK, I looked at the save, and here's some thoughts.

First off, regarding missionaries, Jeff1787, definitely continue building them in those two cities that ndthsmdy designated for them. Extra money never hurts, though I am very much impressed with our economy: +35 gpt at 70% research, good job, guys.

Also, definitely on knights! It looks to me like Isabella doesn't have Guilds or Engineering, so no Knights, and, more importantly: no pikemen for her! She does have some iron, though, apparently (doesn't want to trade for it), so as soon as she gets Engineering, our Knights will be somewhat weakened. We can probably take some musketmen along for the ride to address that, however.

As far as trading maps: what ndthsmdy said. If you find someone in the new world, trade with them, others can stay in the dark.

 

[vovan]

General Discussion Topic:

...

I agree that once we take Spain, we should probably just keep rolling, if war weariness isn't too much of a problem.

As far as who to attack next, I would say either Cyrus or Caesar.

Cyrus doesn't like us that much. (+7 - 5 = +2) The thing about him though is Saladin and him are good buddies, so probably if we attacked him, we'd get a -2 You declared war on our friend with Saladin. Good points for attacking him though are:

1. His empire is split in half, so it will be easier to take him on.
2. His cities are closer to ours, so we won't be incurring as much distance costs.
3. We will be controlling a bunch of cities around Saladin for when we decide to attack him, so we can have a short march to his own cities. (Incidentally, check out the map NE of Damascus, by the gold resource. Unless there's a bunch of ice out there in the water, I don't think Saladin is landlocked, though he certainly can't produce a very impressive fleet, either.)

If you don't like that idea, I would say that the other best option would be to attack Caesar. He's angriest at us, so least reputation damage, but he's also the strongest of the eastern civs, so he can pose the biggest threat eventually (6 cities vs Peter's and Napoleon's 3 apiece). However, like you mentioned, he's been in war, so he probably isn't in the best shape militarily at the moment. But him being aggressive and all, I think that can change in a hurry. So actually attacking him sooner rather than later might prove advantageous, since he isn't as strong as he could become. Plus, he is closest to us, from among the eastern civs.

Vovan

 

[Jeff1787]

----------------------------New entries----------------------------
Turn 220 (1550 AD)
Karakorum begins: Knight
User comment: Cancelled National Epic in Karakorum.
Beshbalik grows: 17
Turfan finishes: Bank
Tiwanaku finishes: Lighthouse
Delhi grows: 11

Turn 221 (1555 AD)
Turfan begins: Harbor
Tiwanaku begins: Catapult
User comment: Caesar wanted open borders and I declined.
Buddhism has spread: Machu Picchu
Buddhism has spread: Karakorum
Explorer promoted: Woodsman II
Beshbalik finishes: Longbowman
New Sarai finishes: Caravel
Bombay finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Hinduism has spread: Pisae (Roman Empire)
Explorer defeats (0.60/4): Barbarian Archer

Turn 222 (1560 AD)
Beshbalik begins: Colosseum
New Sarai begins: Knight
Bombay begins: Buddhist Missionary
Explorer promoted: Guerilla II
User comment: Explorer is recuperationg.
Longbowman promoted: Drill I
Karakorum finishes: Knight
Delhi grows: 12

Turn 223 (1565 AD)
Karakorum begins: Knight
User comment: Cyrus wanted to trade world maps and I declined.
Old Sarai finishes: Granary
Cuzco grows: 12
Madras's borders expand

Turn 224 (1570 AD)
Old Sarai begins: Pikeman
Turfan finishes: Harbor
Cuzco finishes: Grocer
Bombay finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Delhi grows: 13
Bangalore grows: 2

Turn 225 (1575 AD)
Turfan begins: Knight
Cuzco begins: Knight
Bombay begins: Buddhist Missionary
User comment: I am having trouble spreading Buddhism in foreign cities???
Karakorum grows: 16
Karakorum finishes: Knight
Turfan finishes: Knight
Ning-hsia finishes: Harbor
Madras finishes: Courthouse

Turn 226 (1580 AD)
Karakorum begins: Knight
Turfan begins: Knight
Ning-hsia begins: Forge
Madras begins: Catapult
Ning-hsia begins: Colosseum
Tech learned: Replaceable Parts
Bombay finishes: Buddhist Missionary
Delhi grows: 14

Turn 227 (1585 AD)
Research begun: Rifling
Bombay begins: Knight
Tiwanaku grows: 9
Delhi finishes: Bank

Turn 228 (1590 AD)
Delhi begins: Barracks
Buddhism has spread: Rostov (Persian Empire)
Karakorum finishes: Knight
Beshbalik finishes: Colosseum
Cuzco finishes: Knight
Delhi grows: 15
Bangalore finishes: Library
Hinduism has spread: Mecca (Arabian Empire)

Turn 229 (1595 AD)
Karakorum begins: Knight
Beshbalik begins: Forge
Cuzco begins: Knight
Bangalore begins: Barracks
Old Sarai finishes: Pikeman
Calcutta grows: 4
Madras finishes: Catapult
Delhi finishes: Barracks

Turn 230 (1600 AD)
Old Sarai begins: Knight
Madras begins: Catapult
Delhi begins: Knight
Tribal village results: map
Buddhism has spread: Pasargadae (Persian Empire)

I worked on building up the military and moving them up north. The next player can decide on what type of promotions.

I finally did spread Buddhism to some foreign cities.

Most of the workers are building lumbermills and a couple are up north close to Spain.

Cyrus and Saladin will do some trading. We get rifle in six turns.

I did cause a couple of cities to become unhappy. I guess I moved too much military out of them.

 

[Jeff1787]

Here is the save.

 

[vovan]

Ooh, Isabella has lots of food, according to those stats. We could make use of their food.

So.... Shall we wait for Farae, or should I just take over? Any way, it'll take me a bit longer to play the turn, as the break between the semesters has started and I have a far weaker computer at home than at the uni, so the game plays slooowwwww.

 

[ndthsmdy]

Roster [closed]:
1) Farae (MIA)
2) vovan (up)
3) ndthsmdy (on deck)
4) hiob
5) Jeff1787

I assume vovan will have put a sizable dent in the Spanish by the time he hands it over to me so hiob and Jeff can still chime in on the who-to-kill-after-Spain convo.

Take a good look at the tech tree when Rifles come in. I'm not as familiar with the later part of the tree as the beginning (I get bored with games well in hand by Renaissance/Industrial), but Cannon, Cavalry, Lumbermills, and State Property are all things we want. We also seem to be running +72 gold (!) at a good tech pace, so we can either crank the science up to 80-90 and beeline or spend some money on upgrades.

Also might want to stop growth in cities at 12+ pop. We're kind of dependent on Hereditary Rule right now...I hope Izzy's got some good luxes.

 

[ndthsmdy]

Ooh, Isabella has lots of food, according to those stats. We could make use of their food.

So.... Shall we wait for Farae, or should I just take over? Any way, it'll take me a bit longer to play the turn, as the break between the semesters has started and I have a far weaker computer at home than at the uni, so the game plays slooowwwww.

She's also got lots of pop and culture. Don't forget the Pults

Farae's been gone so long that I'm assuming he's kind of on perma-skip until he posts again. He's welcome if/when he does, but until then I say take it.

And don't worry about time--I've got 3 exams in the next 48 hrs