Need advice for Imm/Deity player

[blunderwonder]

Hiya, i dont often ask for advice anymore, but was hoping someone could help me with "rules of thumb", and i apologize in advance for this wall of text.

I play the map but lately have been questioning my playing style, especially with this latest SB map, im not so used to philo leaders, and i hate seafood maps so its probably partly to do with that.


How often do you build forges? and courthouses...? I realize these seem like newbie questions but, this last game i went GLH/mids ~ 10 cities, and completely skipped forges, and courthouses, figured it was easier to build failgold and barracks/stables/granaries only. I mean it felt like i was chuggin along great, but here comes 1100AD, just upgraded my stack of 50ish cuirs with a massive techlead, only to find that at 0% research im only pulling down like 22 gpt, maybe worthwhile maybe not, but because of the game switching dow's and religions and trades, i cant go back and play it different, because the whole thing will change anyway. Courthouses are always on my techpath, metal casting not so much


diplomacy changes for me every game, to some extent theres not alot you can do about early DoW's, and religion problems, and i can play to that, i trade reasonably well, and i build wealth and trade extra resources.

My main issue is expansion, and specialization to an extent. Its just theres 2 or 3 phases of the game I never really nail down. Forges either come too early or too late, and its the same with courthouses. I figure if i dont build a forge by a certain time, its too late, same thing with the courthouse, especially if im trying to win music, or win wonders, or hold off some ridiculous dow while trying not to drown my economy, then theres those secondary cities, that took awhile to get settlers out to, or took awhile to get a stack to attack, then im in a GA, and couldnt whip one anyway, and after the ga, it seems foolish to spend the entire war build up/war period building buildings.... This last game, i built no forges, no courthouses, 3 libraries, and a few totem poles, in addition to the barracks/stable/granary in every city, And it seems i did worse than if i had gone simcity builder crazy. specalized specialization, seems too specialized?


Anyways, for those deity/imm players out there, if you know of a good video, where there was plenty of room to expand, good use of specialization, and good timing with trades/diplomacy and GA's, with either a cannon or cuir rush, and the right number of workers, id like a link if you have any bookmarked or whatnot. Im on limited bandwith so i cant watch 200 random video losses to pick up information. Also, im familiar with most early/mid game rush tactics, so not interested in watching a HA rush or an elepult, because whipping/chopping out an army isnt as complicated to me as maintaining an economy while spamming settlers .

 

[Grashopa]

and completely skipped forges, and courthouses, figured it was easier to build failgold and barracks/stables/granaries only

Courthouse is common to skip. If you are going to hammer out a courthouse you have to consider the time to payback vs when you get your last military tech. Forges I typically always get - I don't often have trouble having MC well before I get to cuirs for example.

Having no money after declaring war is also common. Upkeep for 50 cuirs outside your borders is high so just capture more cities for their gold.

 

[pepe26]

10 cities are a lot! I'm not surprised at all that you have very few economic leeway while having 50 cuirs on enemy lands... You seems to describe a scenario where you are in a strong position to win the game.

 

[lymond]

I consider Forges the second most important building to the Granary.

Why would you build barracks and stables in every city? Don't get that one at all

CHs can be judged mainly by a city's upkeep. Cities close to your Cap often never need them. If you go on massive conquering sprees you are probably going to need them at greater distances or to get up FP in a distant city.

Otherwise, your thinking should not be so much "courthouses are always on my techpath", but rather "Caste System" is always on my techpath. Sounds like one of your big problems is the use and generation of Great People. It's really a very very powerful aspect of the game and emphasized by many of the top players.

Absolute Zero's videos are good for Deity level, but keep in mind that Deity play is not quite the same as IMM play. However, there are still some very good tricks and strats to pick up from him. He mainly plays straight combat games though, but still the balance of that and some of his micros and research is good to see. (edit: AZ actually has an IMM game going on at the moment)

AZ

I also might suggest reading some of the threads of the top SGOTM games. Look up some of the past ones with teams like Plastic Ducks or One Short Straw/TSR..just find the medal winners and then read their threads. You can download various save games to look at as you read along. Probably a very good resource for learning that rarely utilized I think. Some of the very top players ever are playing those games.

 

[blunderwonder]

well, using caste + GA's for great people is one of the few things i time well, big city lots of food, and early NE/TGL, even if I have to whip/chop everything around. I put barracks stables in every almost every city, but thats because every city put out 5-6 HA's, and another 5-6 cuirs over the course of the game. I frequently whip my cities down to 4-6 population during wars to keep cost down and get my power rating up for caps, especially since i had glh, the exception to the whip was HE city.

More and more my games feel quicker though, like i dont have enough time to get all the buildings i want , its not so much im intentionally specalizing my cities into military production and science, but one science city, and the rest whipping units and workers and settlers, theres just no time for the rest. Then im in a GA, growing my cities and building units, then bang, tons of GP's, lib/MT and then im whipping units. i dont have to build forges and courthouses

Someone mentioned the tradeoff between courthouse, vs when it pays off, but gets even more complicated if i marble, because then id rather build failgold.

Its like people talk about oxford/beauro cap, and this is another thing i dont understand... By the time i hit education, im either building wealth/failgold for the push to lib steel, or im building HA's, cuirs. At that point, i dont even see the reason for universities, im going to be at 0% research for most of the rest of the game. In this SB game, philo leader, with a beauro cap, and i still skipped them, even with stone, and a 5xish commerce capital. I often use beauro, especially if i academy and town up a city, but i almost NEVER build oxford/universities unless its a continents game where im just hitting end turn until i get my spaceship.

Ive seen a few of AZ's videos, I hate watching a video if i cant play the map though, and like i said my bandwith is limited for now so i cant watch hours and hours of youtube. I think alot of his videos hinge on early war though, and the two or three ive watched ended before cuirs and serious economic crash, one with elepult, one with alexander, and i think i started to watch another with de gaulle, but i think they all ended badly.

I will check out that SGOTM, though google is having trouble finding it.

Thnx for the replies everyone.

Its not that i dont win on Imm, just that i constantly have doubts about if im expanding quick enough, expanding too much, not quick enough not enough. Am I trading enough, building the right buildings etc... I win most of my games, but I always feel like i screwed up alot.

 

[lymond]

At the top left of the page under the CFC banner you will see the forum navigation links, which look something this:

"Civilization Fanatics' Forums > CIVILIZATION IV > Civ4 - Strategy & Tips"

If you click on the "CIVILIZATION IV" link you will drill up to the full Civ IV menu of forums. There are several forums to see there such as Modding, Technical, GOTM and HOF, including the sub-forums of each. Good way to get around. SGOTM is under GOTM. Also, at the forum top of the page you can click on the Civ IV Menu option and choose "Game of the Month" to see the GOTM page. On the right you will find GOTM and SGOTM links for Submit and Progress&Results, etc. Progress & Results will get you to the save files, if needed.

Oxford is generally something not needed except for Space games and maybe some later type games. Bureau cap is always useful regardless if you game is going a bit later, even war games.

LPs can be useful. You don't have to watch entire games. AZ uses some unorthodox tactics at times so it can be interesting to pick up some of these things.

Really though, the best way to learn is to let us see some of your games or play a shadow game. There's really no better way to get feedback

My one guess is you may not be using slavery as effectively early on as you could.

 

[drewisfat]

You say you feel you're running out of the ability to build as much as you want.... perhaps it's linked to you getting rid of the +25% hammer building

Forge should definitely come ahead in priority before barracks and stables. It seems bizarre that you would switch the priorities on those. Do you not realize how important forges are for building infrastructure, units, whipping??

Also at one point you say "then I'm in a GA, growing my cities and building units". Did you mean to say this? When you're in a GA you shouldn't be growing your cities, in fact you should be starving most of them. Food is the only thing that isn't buffed.

What maps do you play? 10 cities yourself seems a bit high on pangaea. If you post some screenies from a game where you had these problems we might be able to help better.

You said unis are worthless because you're at 0% slider by then. Unis aren't necessary, but I'm wondering why your economy is that far tanked. Are you overwhipping? Are you using slavery still when you pump our cuirs? It's not wrong to do that, but done the wrong way it might be what's killing your economy, especially without forges. Ever try switching to mass workshops/caste ?

 

[blunderwonder]

it will be me easier to just do that in an NC game, next time they put up an IU or NC game, ill go about posting some saves. The forge thing was an aside, i realize its important, but they cost alot of hammers, and if the city is up late, and only going to produce 5-10 HA's, it seems like a waste, not to mention, MC isnt something i usually tech, leaving forges to the mercy of other civs trading habits. If i were industrious, id tech it myself. I suppose i could tech mc from now on, its probably somewhat useful as a trade tech. As for the slavery point. I whip like crazy, if anything i overwhip in order to get stuff out 4-5 turns earlier, even if it stunts my city for the next 15 turns. I just keep trying to whip away the unhappy guys, then work hills or specialists till i get more happy resources, or the anger fades. And as far as whipping goes, im already familiar with most of the micro stuff when it comes to 25% bonuses, and 100% bonuses, though i suspect the stuff i read doesnt apply to bts, or at least bug doenst show it properly.

My micro is not perfect by any means, but its usually pretty subjective anyway i think. I have fraps on my computer, i may attempt to upload a video at some point if anyone would care to watch it. Id have to play pretty quick though as 3-4 mins of video is like 5 gigs of space or something ridiculous before its converted.

 

[MegaLurker]

If you're going to be playing on Deity you'll be able to trade for Metal Casting much earlier. On Immortal MC is not a bad thing to self-research because you can get it before most (or all) of the AIs and it's beaker cost hits a sweet spot for trading around. It trades for a contemporary tech (monarchy, alpha, aesthetics, maths, IW, CoL) plus extra backfill without having to put a single turn into the tech you're trading for, like you have to doing the aesthetics or HBR for Alpha and then Alpha for whatever else. Very powerful trade piece if you can be the first or second to get it. That makes it a good Oracle target on starts with some commerce even if you're not industrious and don't have gold/silver/gems.

The value of forges could be greatly underestimated if you don't realize the significance of a 25% boost to production. That's 25% more raw hammers per turn produced, which is already great, but it's also 25% more hammers from whip overflow which makes it something you'll want to build even in low production cities as long as they have the food to whip.

Forge and Granary are the two buildings you want in every city, the only exceptions being marginal cities that won't contribute anything that you usually would only settle to get a certain resource. Granary+forge+barracks in that order will have any city with at least 1 high food tile
ready for pumping out units. Most cities only need those buildings on Diety, where you get free border pops from religion spread so early that not even monuments are necessary.

A decent rule of thumb for courthouses is to build them in cities as they approach 8 gpt in maintenance. An empire of under 10 cities doesn't need courthouses at all unless you've got an awkwardly placed city or two that are much further away from the capital than the rest. It's no longer worth building courthouses when you're within 40 turns or so of Communism.

Oxford is a huge expense and you're right that it doesnt make sense to build it late in a game that's going to be won with already unlocked units. But on Deity you'll rarely have the game in the bag by gunpowder or rifling or steel like you might on Immortal. You'll more likely take out one or maybe two AIs and then still have many turns ahead of you during which you're getting hit with inflation while the AI tech rate accelerates rapidly. Oxford in a well developed bureau capital is one of the most straightforward ways of keeping up. It's not unusual to have a good 75% or more of your research coming from a strong bureau cap. Again doubling your base beaker rate there can all on it's own keep you in the tech game for long enough to get to the next big military techs.

Not getting Oxford up quickly enough on Deity can lead to a situation where you cap a neighbour or two and think you're in an unlose-able situation (which you would be if it were Immortal) only to find the remaining AIs pulling way ahead in research to the point that you can't take them out. You might be limping along to rifling only to find that AIs are finishing techs like Steam Power and Railroad in 3 or 4 turns.

 

[lymond]

it will be me easier to just do that in an NC game, .

It might be "easier", but that does not make it "better". While you could certainly use an NC game as a basis for a shadow game, the point is to play a game systematically in your own thread. This way it gets the focus you need and, I presume, want.

Pretty much this discussion right now is Us recommending things you can try improving and You telling us why you don't do these things. Not very constructive really.

 

[Solyaris]

I've played civ 4 for many, many years, and the more I play (and the higher in difficulty) the more the phrase "less is more" comes to mind. I usually play immortal, although I've won several deity games, and in the normal situation (7-8 cities, 2-3 neighbours) you generaly want only granary and forge in all cities! A few cities might need library (either against neighbour culture, or because it's your sience cities) and a few should have barracks. Rest of the time, you either built wealth or workers/settlers/units.

 

[blunderwonder]

I think its been pretty instructive. Im going to start putting forges in every city again . Its difficult for me though because its hard to measure... If i were industrious or needed the happy bonus from gold/silver/gems it would be different. But measuring 120 hammers into a forge at a time when i could build courthouse or units or wealth/failgold its tough for me, especially since i dont know how long it will take to pay off, often times i think 3-4 HA's right now will be better than a forge.

Also i didnt mean using an nc thread, just the map. I dont like making my map because I always think its too good or too bad a start, id rather pick a game other people have played, where it has an acceptable number of happy/strategic resources.

That said, I could use the recent SB map, because i liked the GLH/mids route, and it wasnt too much island junk, or I could use the Pacal map, i havnt played it but it seems alot of people enjoyed it, it was an easy map i guess. Id be happy to accept a suggestion though.

I would really like to get some feedback on whips, so ill post either alot of screenshots or saves. I cant usually tell if im overwhipping during build up time, and sometimes during beginning play when im rushing to get out workers/settlers/barb defense and granaries and a library or two. I go crazy with the whip sometimes, and in cities where i have nothing but food, i tend to overwhip, because i cant run mines till the anger is gone, so i try to whip it away..

Also i read awhile back

Also at one point you say "then I'm in a GA, growing my cities and building units". Did you mean to say this? When you're in a GA you shouldn't be growing your cities, in fact you should be starving most of them. Food is the only thing that isn't buffed.

during a GA or two, i usually grow my cities, and bank those hammers so i can whip them 3 or 4 times over 8 turns once i have MT/gunpowder. I ofc have an NE city where i run specialists, and maybe one more city as well, depending on the food situation, if i have an incredible NE city, usually running a second city doesnt contribute much though. Without rep i dont usually bother running specialists in every city when i can have them grow hammers and commerce.

let me know about the map though, im going to muddle around with the pacal map in the meantime, and see if i can get fraps to work with civ, by the time i have the map explored on one of these huge maps with hundreds of units/cities/workers, my pc tends to have trouble.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BW :
Yes, really, you should provide screenies, comments and saves.
If you want feedback on your play, then feedback is informed by your play.

From what I read, I'm under the impression you play a single plan. That is the cuirassiers plan.
While it is very valid, playing a variety of plans would give you many more chances to improve and assess the reasons any single plan is a valid (or invalid) one.

Replicating is ok. But has limited uses.
e.g. : you say Oxford is useless. Of course, if you plan to break the map open with cuirassiers... and manage to do so, then the extra research isn't needed.
But not all games are (or should be) played with cuirassiers. Cuirassiers are just a unit among others. Among others.
Now try a Space Race and see if Oxford is useless again ? Or just try a larger map... Different plans, different plays can open one's eyes on the utilities, the justifications, the reasons, the circumstances, the goals, the aims that can find their way into a game.

Seek the opportunity and play the opportunity. Don't force a plan onto a map.

 

[blunderwonder]

I hate large maps . I do cannons sometimes, or ill go for an engineering rush, or elepult or HA's or draft alot. I use space victory only as a last resort. Im never lucky enough to be friends with all the civs, though maybe at some point I will gift bunches of cities to people and try for a diplo victory. it would be easier if they didnt constantly hassle me to get involved with their wars or give away precious tech leads.

I am going to do the shadow game. But im not sure if it should be a new thread. Also, someone please tell me which map to play. In the meantime i fraps'd 30 mins of one of my games. I may be able to post a full game if thats easier to give tips from. Its going to take me a awhile though, as it takes an insane amount of space so I may have to move my tv/movie collection off of my harddrive. then it takes about 1 min of conversion time per 1 minute of video to convert to a usable format for youtube. And then theres clipping them into 15 minute sections for youtube.

Anyway, be gentle with the responses to this video if anyone bothers to watch. I didnt micro as well as I should have because I was rushing because I dont have a supercomputer, or the hd space/bandwith to record 8 hours of video, I may google fraps help, as ive only used it before for 5 min - 15 min max recordings, not 3 hour games.

anyways, let me know on the LP/shadow game stuff heres the links for now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS6OXkIeE4k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O2dpucWS00

id apologize for the fuzziness but like i say, itd take me days to figure out how to fix it, and as i dont plan to put up LPs every game, just for constructive purposes, it seems like a waste to spend 6 hours googling computer stuff.

 

[MyOtherName]

The forge thing was an aside, i realize its important, but they cost alot of hammers, and if the city is up late, and only going to produce 5-10 HA's, it seems like a waste,

It takes 500 base to build 10 horse archers, but merely 520 to build a forge then 10 horse archers (on normal), assuming you always produce a multiple of 4 ; the forge might even be an overall win in this scenario, since it's much easier to build with than horse archers are (and organized religion is easier to have than police state in this era).

And if you get the forge, then it's giving you happiness and contributing to all further builds too after the attack is done; even wealth.

 

[elmurcis]

Forge also allow to convert extra food to 2 extra hammers with engineer.. very useful option when at happy cap and don't want to whip anything. These 2 hammers sometimes can give 1 extra when city had like 10 base production output (with forge just 12 not 12,5), but now its 12 base production and you get 15 hammers output.. Small difference that can give big advantage soon enough..

 

[blunderwonder]

Ive started to put them in every city again, but only because of just how many extra hammers i get. If it came down to a few HA's now when i have tons of upgrade gold, it would be a different story. But with the whip bonuses, and how early its possible. it easily pays off in most cities i think.

The issue i take with that argument is pretty much every building eventually pays off eventually, even aqueducts and grocers, but its a trade off for research and units etc. I mean you take every size 8 city built on a river with currency, and your looking 10+ commerce. A library costs 90h, and would pay off in ~45 turns, probably less, assuming your running lots of research, and have decent tiles. But i dont put libraries in every city, or aqueducts etc. I get what your saying with the payoff, but when it comes to research/cuir's, an extra 10-15 of them, and 5-10 turns earlier at the cost of libraries and courthouses, is a massive advantage. Im not being argumentative because i like to, just trying to explain my confusion at times.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in shadowing a game or giving some advice, please pick out a map, and ill post a thread or fraps if that seems more worthwhile.

 

[MegaLurker]

I think its been pretty instructive. Im going to start putting forges in every city again . Its difficult for me though because its hard to measure... If i were industrious or needed the happy bonus from gold/silver/gems it would be different. But measuring 120 hammers into a forge at a time when i could build courthouse or units or wealth/failgold its tough for me, especially since i dont know how long it will take to pay off, often times i think 3-4 HA's right now will be better than a forge.

When would you ever be choosing between HAs and a forge, though? HA rushes come before forges and pre-building HAs to upgrade to cuirs happens after your forges should already be built. Between whips, whip overflow, chops and just old fashioned worked-tile production there is really no shortage of turns or hammers. Cities without seafood or much commerce only need 3 or 4 buildings for the first 250+ turns.

I would really like to get some feedback on whips, so ill post either alot of screenshots or saves. I cant usually tell if im overwhipping during build up time, and sometimes during beginning play when im rushing to get out workers/settlers/barb defense and granaries and a library or two. I go crazy with the whip sometimes, and in cities where i have nothing but food, i tend to overwhip, because i cant run mines till the anger is gone, so i try to whip it away..

What you seem to think is over-whipping doesn't sound too bad. Though early game you should really try not to have more than -1 happiness from whips for more than a few turns at a time. Whipping before and during a military breakout you can just go nuts and whip food-rich cities every 3 turns or so. I've had cities well above -10 happiness and well over 100 turns until it all wears off. At that point you normally have enough luxuries that it doesnt matter, it becomes super efficient to keep cities below size 6 and 2-pop whip over and over.

during a GA or two, i usually grow my cities, and bank those hammers so i can whip them 3 or 4 times over 8 turns once i have MT/gunpowder. I ofc have an NE city where i run specialists, and maybe one more city as well, depending on the food situation, if i have an incredible NE city, usually running a second city doesnt contribute much though. Without rep i dont usually bother running specialists in every city when i can have them grow hammers and commerce.

Running specialists in only 1 or 2 cities during golden ages sounds far from ideal. You want your cities grown and with plenty of food in the bin BEFORE your golden age, so that a bunch of food-rich cities can be starved down. Producing your GPs sooner is way more beneficial than the tile yield bonuses. Golden ages are all about GPPs and free civic swaps. For me a typical first golden age (using, for example, the GArtist won from Music) will be timed for the arrival of Philosophy and Civil Service. Usually CS will be completed during the golden age, Philosophy before it's triggered.

By this time you would usually have several cities above size 6. You also want to stockpile enough gold to run your slider at 100% science for the duration of the golden age, so that all the extra commerce is being run through your libraries. By starving down at least 3 cities it's pretty standard to have 3 GPs out during the golden age with a fourth well on it's way, having switched into caste system, pacifism, and whatever religion you have in the most food-rich cities. The beauty of it is that you can use a diplomatically dangerous religion for the pacifism boost and then switch out of both on the last turn of the golden age.

Now of those GPs are 3 scientists and a merchant, I've gotten myself ~5000 beakers (at a key time, during which i can 2x bulb education and 1x bulb lib) and generally no less than 1500 gold (also at a key time, to be banked for mass pre-built unit upgrades and/or powering through a couple more techs) in a dozen turns or so. You don't need to do the actual math to see how much stronger that is than +1h and +1c on the tiles you could work instead of starving down the extra city or two (or three).

Are you looking for a Pangea map or what?

 

[blunderwonder]

I prefer pangea yes, but im open to suggestions, i have trouble managing my research when i can expand to 10-15 cities.

if anyone is going to shadow, it would also help if they'd suggest the strategy, doesnt do me alot of good comparing cuir rush to cannons, or to treb rush, or space, so someone else can pick some of that out, ofc there will be map/diplo issues, but given that there will be wars, would be nice to know in advance how others are doing it.

I know i seem tiresome , but I really do appreciate the help. Few months ago, before my civ4 break, i tried deity with shaka, on a circle? map, it wasnt inland sea or wheel, but it was sort of like that maybe it was called donut.. Anyway, it seemed to be going well, but some other people posted saves, and they just did so much better

Anyways, certainly open to suggestions on that stuff, and how i should post. Patience isnt exactly my strong suit though, so if its like posting every 10 turns, and waiting it will be rough for me, but i suppose i can just play this shadow game in between others.

The ga stuff is interesting. Switching into and out of civics, especially for the swap into beauro is something i always do anyway, worst case scenario i lose 2 or 3 turns early to swap into rep if i have mids, or hr/or, and a religion so i dont get piled on.

Id like to say I always run a GA, and then swap into beauro but often times, ill have beauro before i have NE done, or sometimes my cities just need to grow a bit, or sometimes im late with the GP. In any event, there has been times ive used 3 cities, but i dont often have enough food for that, or if religion didnt spread to most of them, if im running 4 specialists and my city is starving over the next 8 turns, it may put one out between NE city GP's, but running 3-4 cities like that doesnt seem to be useful unless i have 24 turns of GA, with mom or taj i suppose i could give it a try starving all my cities. I figure its safe to have 2 cities do it though, guaranteed extraish gp earlier, but no duds where i wasted town tiles or ph river tiles, or banked population for 3 beakers a turn.. I will give this some more thought next time i go into GA's, my NE city is usually pretty reasonable though

 

[MegaLurker]

The free civic swap for early golden ages is mainly important for being able to switch in and out of a religion to benefit from pacifism. There will be many games where switching into any of the available religions for too long risks an AI plotting on you, so being able to switch in and then back out is so important. This is also why when you get up to Deity the Spiritual trait becomes so powerful. It really should be considered up there with Philosophical, Industrious, and Financial as one of the top tier traits if you really take the time to exploit it. But of course it's easy to be too lazy to switch back and forth constantly even though it's so strong.

To generate GPs from multiple cities, particularly if you have the national epic built, requires a bit of forethought. Too many points in your best GPP city (or top 2) at the wrong moment could mean that a city that had almost enough to pop one out never will. And then all those points are wasted. You will need to stop running specialists strategically to make sure you don't do this, and you have to know when a city just won't be able to keep up. But this is pretty easy for your first golden age or two, and there often won't be more than that anyway. The important thing is to squeeze out as many GPPs as possible while you're getting the golden age bonus.