Need tips on Axe-Rush [Vanilla]

[pigswill]

If you're looking to rush then build nothing but warriors (maybe a barracks to start) until you have copper then nothing but axes. Raze every city except your capital and copper city. The money you get from capturing cities will support your armies so you don't need an economy, kill your last enemy and get a conquest victory c 1000-500bc.

Spoiler :

Tiny pangea, warlords, marathon, playing as Genghis Khan. Turn before conquest victory.

 

[ben-jammin]

Learn to rush with horse archers. Problem solved.

 

[Htadus]

OP. Only keep good cities that can pay for itself. Also make sure you know Writing to get at least 1 city to run 2 scientists, CoL for whipping CH in the captured cities and Currency. Also you will need a few cottages or gild/gem or similar.

What was your tech path after conquering? Were you using your specialist slots?

If you wait until after conquering. then it is too late.

Learn to rush with horse archers. Problem solved.

On BTS may be not in nilla.

 

[Bandobras Took]

If you wait until after conquering. then it is too late.

My apologies for being unclear; they were separate questions.

 

[Blockinlick]

OP. Only keep good cities that can pay for itself. Also make sure you know Writing to get at least 1 city to run 2 scientists, CoL for whipping CH in the captured cities and Currency. Also you will need a few cottages or gild/gem or similar.



If you wait until after conquering. then it is too late.


On BTS may be not in nilla.

There are HA's in Vanilla. They are Keshiks for Mongolia.

 

[Htadus]

There are HA's in Vanilla. They are Keshiks for Mongolia.

Yes I do know that. But vanilla HA's are not as effective as BTS HA. As many had stated, its cats that dominate in vanilla in the early game....actually for a long time after LB's show up too. You can do HA rushes but the cost and the losses are just not worth your while. But you can do very effective axe rushes in nilla. You just need to start early and be willing to raze cities that are crappy.

 

[Blockinlick]

Yes I do know that. But vanilla HA's are not as effective as BTS HA. As many had stated, its cats that dominate in vanilla in the early game....actually for a long time after LB's show up too. You can do HA rushes but the cost and the losses are just not worth your while. But you can do very effective axe rushes in nilla. You just need to start early and be willing to raze cities that are crappy.

I think I'm going to go with a collective strategy of it all, except the HA's. I've used the Keshiks before, and they're terrible. Like you say, they are hefty in price/upkeep, need Horses, and when they die, they're just don't go very far.

When I played that last game, I did start out with a small warrior rush that gave me the copper resource and first 2 razed cities I needed to take Alex down a notch. Soonafter I started pumping out Axes and trampled over Alex > Nappy > Roosevelt.

What I should have done was left leave Napoleon alone, because he was not much of a threat to me and go straight to Roosevelt and take him out. After that would have been a great opportunity to take a break and get Currency to build some Markets, then continue/finish my rampage on Gandhi then Nappy.

I honestly think I could have effortlessly smashed them to pieces the second I got Muskets.

 

[Ghpstage]

I think I'm going to go with a collective strategy of it all, except the HA's. I've used the Keshiks before, and they're terrible. Like you say, they are hefty in price/upkeep, need Horses, and when they die, they're just don't go very far

Even with the loss of withdrawal chance and the lack of a Stables buildings, I doubt Keshiks are going to go from being one of the best uniques in BTS to 'terrible' in vanilla, your probably just not using their speed, not building enough or are assuming you shouldn't be losing units....
Their main issue is just that in vanilla, Catapults were stupid strong by comparison.

(Though if your playing on marathon then Axes are faster strategically than standard speed mounted (even Keshiks...)

I honestly think I could have effortlessly smashed them to pieces the second I got Muskets.

Muskets actually ARE terrible, even moreso on vanilla where you can get Cavalry with just Gunpowder and Military Tradition!

If your struggling at Warlord difficulty getting help on a specific gambit isn't really going to help, you would be much better off shoring up the more fundamental parts of your game, like building an empire with an effective economy, choosing useful techs to research and managing workers/specialists.
Without being able to do these things your attacking is always going to be handicapped by a lack of production, tech or supporting economy, but when you know how to do these things decently you will be able to attack using virtually any unit and succeed at this level.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Even with the loss of withdrawal chance and the lack of a Stables buildings, I doubt Keshiks are going to go from being one of the best uniques in BTS to 'terrible' in vanilla, your probably just not using their speed, not building enough or are assuming you shouldn't be losing units....

Actually, they do go to being terrible. Their only advantage over Horse Archers is the no terrain cost, but they lose immunity to first strikes in order to gain one piddly first strike. Without any withdrawal chance at all, you lose a *lot* of them (actually, that applies to HAs or Keshiks).

They're essentially two Flanking promotions behind their starting level in BtS, and you don't have Stables OR Great Generals to help you make up the difference. Add to that that the only thing Genghis has to help them is cheap Barracks, that you have to research Archery in addition to having the horses nearby, and that they're more expensive than either Axemen or Catapults, and you have a unit that really fails to impress. There's a reason they felt they needed to buff early mounted combat in the later expansions.

 

[Blockinlick]

Even with the loss of withdrawal chance and the lack of a Stables buildings, I doubt Keshiks are going to go from being one of the best uniques in BTS to 'terrible' in vanilla, your probably just not using their speed, not building enough or are assuming you shouldn't be losing units....
Their main issue is just that in vanilla, Catapults were stupid strong by comparison.

(Though if your playing on marathon then Axes are faster strategically than standard speed mounted (even Keshiks...)
Muskets actually ARE terrible, even moreso on vanilla where you can get Cavalry with just Gunpowder and Military Tradition!

If your struggling at Warlord difficulty getting help on a specific gambit isn't really going to help, you would be much better off shoring up the more fundamental parts of your game, like building an empire with an effective economy, choosing useful techs to research and managing workers/specialists.
Without being able to do these things your attacking is always going to be handicapped by a lack of production, tech or supporting economy, but when you know how to do these things decently you will be able to attack using virtually any unit and succeed at this level.

There is no Cavalry on Vanilla lol. There are Knights, if that's what you're referring to, and those are just swordsmen on horses, who get roflstomped by Musketmen.

I honestly don't get how you're saying Muskets aren't good. The best non-unique unit before them are Knights... honestly, I'd rather pump out Axemen than Knights. Musketmen utterly decimate everything until Infantry.

When it comes to basics, It's all coming back to me little by little [I used to play this game fanatically when I was a teen].

A few games back, I started taking a look at specialists, and when I saw all the white circles around my city's tiles, I epically facepalmed lol... because I had completely forgotten that you could only work so many tiles until growth and that some improvements were useless outside of the BFC. I also started to recall how Specialists work and such.

After doing a little bit of reading, I've learned how to specialize my cities better now. I have always had a vague way of going about it, as in I'd always have two cities for pumping out armies, one for commerce, and one for culture/GP, but now I've learned a lot more about getting the most out of those cities.

I played the scenario from the O/P last night using my refreshed knowledge and I pimp slapped the game by 700 BC using nothing but Warrior and Axe Rush. Poor Alexander didn't even see it coming lol.

 

[lymond]

oh...and get BTS if I haven't mentioned it

Actually I think I recall you posting here are year or so ago. We recommended BTS then too.

 

[Blockinlick]

oh...and get BTS if I haven't mentioned it

Actually I think I recall you posting here are year or so ago. We recommended BTS then too.

Wow... how I've overlooked those, I have no idea. WTH lol. My bad.

Anyways, yeah. I posted here a long time ago. I don't care for getting BTS. I don't have the money, even if it's $5, I don't want it that badly, and the way I see it, I enjoy playing Vanilla enough not to want it that badly.

 

[lymond]

You can find BTS online for $5 or less when it goes on sale. Trust me, it is worth it. I won't harp on it again, but you are really missing out by not playing BTS.

The deal with Musketmen is that they are not so good when you move up difficulty. On lower levels...sure...you can stomp with them. However, their lifespan is rather short on higher levels. With vanilla, Cavalry are the preferred unit for stompage later game on higher levels. In BTS, the Cuirassier - a pre-Rifling gunpowder mounted unit - is often the preferred choice among advanced players. (BTS has a ton of stuff that vanilla does not)

 

[Bandobras Took]

There are arguments to be made for Vanilla; there's a staggering amount of annoyance in BtS that you just plain don't have to put up with in the basic game.

 

[Blockinlick]

There are arguments to be made for Vanilla; there's a staggering amount of annoyance in BtS that you just plain don't have to put up with in the basic game.

Really, that's the way I look at it.

I predict that it could easily be just like Frozen Throne. I hated the FT Expansion for WC3 and eventually uninstalled it. However, 99.9% of WC3 fanboys flame me for that. I just value different principals when playing a game than most. I definitely like to keep things in "practical simplicity". Meaning basically that I don't like being swamped with so many options that it's tedious just to explore and find what's best for me.

...and when an expansion adds so many new things that I feel like I have to unlearn/relearn and overhaul my knowledge, it turns me away.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Really, that's the way I look at it.

I predict that it could easily be just like Frozen Throne. I hated the FT Expansion for WC3 and eventually uninstalled it. However, 99.9% of WC3 fanboys flame me for that.

You're not the only one who disliked Frozen Throne.

 

[Pangaea]

There are arguments to be made for Vanilla; there's a staggering amount of annoyance in BtS that you just plain don't have to put up with in the basic game.

No corporations is a massive plus in itself. No espionage either, I think?

 

[Pangaea]

Really, that's the way I look at it.

I predict that it could easily be just like Frozen Throne. I hated the FT Expansion for WC3 and eventually uninstalled it. However, 99.9% of WC3 fanboys flame me for that. I just value different principals when playing a game than most. I definitely like to keep things in "practical simplicity". Meaning basically that I don't like being swamped with so many options that it's tedious just to explore and find what's best for me.

...and when an expansion adds so many new things that I feel like I have to unlearn/relearn and overhaul my knowledge, it turns me away.

Hehe, think I just played the first campaign and maybe half of the second in Warcraft 3. Not sure if that was Frozen Throne or not. Then I got a bit bored with the whole thing.

 

[lymond]

Really, that's the way I look at it.

I predict that it could easily be just like Frozen Throne. I hated the FT Expansion for WC3 and eventually uninstalled it. However, 99.9% of WC3 fanboys flame me for that. I just value different principals when playing a game than most. I definitely like to keep things in "practical simplicity". Meaning basically that I don't like being swamped with so many options that it's tedious just to explore and find what's best for me.

...and when an expansion adds so many new things that I feel like I have to unlearn/relearn and overhaul my knowledge, it turns me away.

First off, I completely disagree with Took...not about FT since I only played vanilla WC3 and didn't even finish that.

BTS isn't about adding a lot of stuff. Really only two new "features" - espionage and Corporation, both of which can be completely ignored. A couple of new techs, buildings and wonders, but nothing that makes you think too hard.

What you did get is:

1) improved graphics
2) improved UI
3) fine tuned some of the small and big flaws in vanilla and Warlords. Things like staggering unhappiness and unhealth early on and brutal war weariness
4) Great Generals - started in Warlords expansion. You are really missing out on this one. Simple feature and lots of fun. Earn a Great General and you can create super units with access to otherwise unavailable promotions like Medic III and Leadership (boosted XP)
5) Improved forts...they do much more like create canals and ports
6) Pretty much all the mods are for BTS including the highly recommended BUG mod that improves the UI and advisors.
7) Better conversion of hammers to wealth and research
8) Corps actually are very cool and powerful despite what is said above, but you can just ignore them and use good old State Property, which is simply and powerful - and also boosted in BTS

and so on

BTS is the reason CIV IV is one of the best games of all time and best of the Civ series. You can be stubborn about it, but you are only hurting yourself. I can't comment on any comparison to games like WC3 as I don't think the comparison is relevant.

 

[Bandobras Took]

What you did get is:

1) improved graphics

Debatable.

2) improved UI

Flat-out wrong. Alt-clicking to upgrade all units got broken and never fixed, half the time it doesn't read Ctrl-clicking/Shift-clicking on units, Vassalage breaks a person's ability to read diplomacy, and TMIT can tell you about the rest of the problems with the BtS UI.

3) fine tuned some of the small and big flaws in vanilla and Warlords. Things like staggering unhappiness and unhealth early on and brutal war weariness

In return for introducing brand-new flaws. Espionage as a whole springs to mind, also, teaching the AI to use Slavery instead of fixing the entire broken mechanic.

4) Great Generals - started in Warlords expansion. You are really missing out on this one. Simple feature and lots of fun. Earn a Great General and you can create super units with access to otherwise unavailable promotions like Medic III and Leadership (boosted XP)

Thus putting the game on even more of a Warmonger focus.

5) Improved forts...they do much more like create canals and ports

That doesn't mean they'll be built.

6) Pretty much all the mods are for BTS including the highly recommended BUG mod that improves the UI and advisors.

And this is supposed to persuade somebody who's content with Vanilla how? "If you buy an expansion, then you can alter the game even more, even though you've just said you don't want to alter the game!"

7) Better conversion of hammers to wealth and research

If you're in to that sort of thing, I suppose.

8) Corps actually are very cool and powerful despite what is said above, but you can just ignore them and use good old State Property, which is simply and powerful - and also boosted in BTS

and so on

Yes:

8) Espionage forces you to constantly rebuild the same tiles with your workers as the AI spams spies.

9) Slavery is still broken, but with this version, the AI uses it, pretty much forcing you into a Civic to stay at parity. This is a design flaw.

10) The Space Elevator was made worthless.

11) Vassals are still broken.

12) Random events that have a possibility of screwing you over are not the way to balance broken civics.

13) Corporations are not balanced against each other.

14) Stiff overseas maintenance penalties.

15) Holy cities lose their spying abilities.

BTS is the reason CIV IV is one of the best games of all time and best of the Civ series.

No, Civ IV is the reason Civ IV is the best of the Civ Series. It was the first to not punish you for building infrastructure and the first to actually punish you for REXing. It came closer than either of the expansions to making the game balanced between warfare and peaceful play. Warlords and BtS have their appeal, but their enhancements are matched by their induced limitations and pitfalls.