NES Economics Thread

So I looked into Rostovtzeff and Green for Hellenistic budgets, and was kind of put out by their unwillingness to detail expenditures all that well. However, income has been relatively well described.

Rostovtzeff's discussion of the Seleukid state stresses the importance to the state of "six classes of revenue", as described in the Oikonomika of Pseudo-Aristotle. By far, apparently, the chief source of cash was the land dues (the only indication Rostovtzeff gives as to proportion, which is infuriating), the ekthorion and the dekate (tithe) levied in differing amounts on landowners depending on where they worked the land - in the chora basilike (royal peasants), on the land of katoikiai and klerouchoi (military settlers), in the chora of various poleis, and in the rest of the chora. Of secondary concern were the revenues from idia, the private possessions of the king. Conveniently, since the king was the ultimate owner of all the junk in his empire by spear-won right of conquest, these included all revenues from the operation of mines, salt pans, forests, lakes, quarries, and so forth. These are apparently described separately from the levy on peasants of the chora basilike, i.e. they do not include land-taxes. Then comes the revenue from emporia, trade, including customs duties in general, harbor tolls, payments related to fairs, and the royal take from internal tolls levied at satrapal boundaries. Another source, from tele kata gen and agoraia tele, apparently relate to, respectively, tolls from using roads and a sales tax (perhaps only levied on commerce that takes place in city markets, it's unclear). "Boskymata", "cattle", apparently brought in enough revenue to warrant inclusion as a separate source as well, presumably as distinct from taxes related to the chora basilike. And then there are the phoroi, tribute from the independent poleis within the empire, which may or may not have included a sort of double taxation, on the chora each polis controlled.

Green, whose Marxist tendencies lead him to emphasize all sorts of fun stuff, starts off by saying that booty was apparently an extremely significant part of income, going from booty acquired in war to what was essentially piracy, running in grain ships for their cargoes. He provides the helpful figure of 15000 silver talents (on the Ptolemaic, not Attic, standard) for the annual income of Ptolemaios III Euergetes. (When he captured Seleukeia-in-Pieria, he snagged ten percent of his annual budget. Daaaaamn.) Green's view of part of the Oikonomika is one slanted towards the extraordinary plunder-related measures used by Hellenistic rulers to fill the blank spots in the budget - for instance, the famous Mausollos of Karia, who warned his people of a Persian invasion, and in so doing was able to collect a sizable donation from the people of his capital, Mylasa, to improve the fortifications...and then claimed that "heaven, for the time being, forbade the walls to be built". He details the taxes imposed by Hellenistic rulers as a litany of somewhat arbitrary measures aimed at doing nothing so much as milking a personal estate: 25% taxes on baking establishments, the 16.7% tax on wine (apomoira), the 5% combined sales, transfer, and inheritance tax (enkyklion), the royal crown taxes (stephanetikos), death duties, sacrifice-tithes, and fees for having herds, owning slaves, and being an artisan. His emphasis is on how the Hellenistic Greeks were totally unconcerned with investment and increasing production of any kind, so he dwells on how virtually all proceeds were banked unproductively in the royal treasuries after the enormous cost of maintaining the armed forces and the significantly smaller cost of maintaining the state bureaucracy were deducted. The monthly rate of pay for a Ptolemaic soldier in 158 BC is given at 350 copper drachmas plus one artaba of wheat (an artaba being slightly more than a medimnos, which itself was about 192 cups or 45 liters/dry measure). Unfortunately, I can't compare that to the 15,000 silver talent state budget of eighty years prior because the second-century Ptolemaioi massively debased their copper coinage, combined with truly disgusting inflation (the price of an artaba, for instance, quintupled over a few decades around the year 200 BC). Note, too, the two-percent Rhodian customs duty (said to have brought in over a million drachmas annually - Attic standard silver ones, not the copper Ptolemaic crap - implying a turnover of 8300 silver Attic talents annually in imports and exports). On the basis of this annual windfall the Rhodians were actually able to maintain an expensive grain dole system for metic-class citizens, which paid off by ensuring a large pool of healthy rowers for the fleet.

A long look into Shelmerdine and Bennet doesn't indicate what portion of the Mykenaian palace-culture's intake was set aside for what, but its expenditures chiefly centered around ritual feasting and the remuneration of workers and bureaucrats, most of which was unconnected with the wanaktes (kings) or the lawagetai (second-in-command, sort of, with probable responsibility for military operations). The stuff that passed into the hands of the wanaktes themselves, other than the food and drink for the ritual feasting, seems to have been oriented mostly on luxury items for the Mykenaian elite.

Dunno how helpful that is without a whole lot of numbers there. :undecide:
 
I couldn't find budgetary specifics either, not counting some reaaaally obscure Sumerian temple records that I didn't understand very well.

Though everything I looked at emphasized the importance of corvee labor/mandatory service to the monarchy as a major supplement to traditional bullion payments. This is all Near-Eastern.
 
Hmm. I'm assuming we're talking about Ancient Near Eastern states, so...I'll see what I can find. We have a good library.

It's appreciated. That said, I don't need just the Ancient Near East; firstly, I do mean to cover more ground than that in due time, and secondly, as you can see its pretty hard to find any good information on state revenue, even though household revenues seem to be covered rather better. So while I am trying to find as much information as I could on the state revenue of Ancient Egypt, I'll probably have to fill in the blanks based partly on information from other pre-modern Asian states.

Dunno how helpful that is without a whole lot of numbers there.

I don't meant to make it very detailed anyway (that's both suicidal and beside the point), so this is helpful in itself (albeit numbers would ofcourse be even better). A thorough description of the revenue system is already something, even if the Hellenistic states were a bit irregular for many reasons.

Though everything I looked at emphasized the importance of corvee labor/mandatory service to the monarchy as a major supplement to traditional bullion payments. This is all Near-Eastern.

The basic facts of the economy are not the problem here; that's pretty easy to find information on, and for the record this is, to my knowledge, the same in all major Oriental states (cue Masada rant? :p ), hence the Asian mode of production and similar theories.
 
I'll look again to find source data, though I'm not sure how likely it will be that something Neo-Babylonian or before will have a full accounting of ALL the income sources received and ALL the outlays conveniently written on a tablet discovered by later researchers. It probably would/will be easier to find more complete datasets for Greek poleis, but I'll leave that to Dachs. In a broad, non-numeric sense, we already know where these states incomes came from, and what they were spent on. I'm confused how quantitative you want us to get...but I'll focus on proportions for now.

Well, at the least you know to incorporate a variety of different traditional methods (forced labor, and more importantly tributary payments) into the traditional income calculation.
 
Proportions are the priority here, yes. Precise quantities are a welcome bonus.
 
Damn, lost it. Stupid database errors messing with the quick reply box.

Anyway, the problem with polis finances is that they kept track of them in really weird ways. There were no documents listing expenditures and revenues for the state, but instead a whole mess of individual documents - paradoseis (transfer of objects from one board of officials to their duly elected successors, which sometimes involved an inventory), the accounts of public works and building projects, the description of sums disbursed on military campaigns, the universally incomplete records of income (the best we have is the Tribute Quota list of the Athenians' Empire, which didn't even come close to accounting for all of state revenues), and records of money lending (deity to state, deity to individual, sums lent by the demarchos of Rhamnous, and sums lent from a koinon to individuals). All of these are incomplete, and all of them have their own problems - John Davies calls this "the black hole of Athenian finance". For instance, take payments for military campaigns. The tamiai, state treasurers, would duly record the transaction as they handed out X number of talents to Y strategos. They did not record X anywhere. They recorded Y, and then they recorded Z, the amount for which Y was personally liable, which did not bear a relationship to X that we can discern at all, much less a linear one.

There are a few hints out there, though, but they are difficult for me to access since I can't see the journal that most of them are in. Inscriptions published by Plaket, 1964 and Petrakos, 1997, both in Supplementum Epigraphicum Graecum, might be helpful, but I don't know how helpful.

Slowly working through sources, I think I can come up with a decent military budget for third-century Ptolemaioi in the next few days. It's much more difficult to work with classical Greeks than with the Roman Empire...:undecide:
 
Everything I'm seeing indicates that domestic spending in Ancient Near Eastern states was definitely an equal or greater proportion of the budget than military spending, though that's a horrible generalization and I know it. I've learned a lot about sources of income as well, though I'm not sure of how much interest that would be.

Public works projects and state-supported temple infrastructure seem to be the two biggest outlays. I'll try to find some more specific numbers soon.
 
**** I forgot. Anyway, for the aforementioned budget of Ptolemaios III, I arrived at the calculation of about 3600 silver talents/year on mercenaries, which would be the primary military expenditure of the state. I kinda fudged on the comparison of Attic standard and Ptolemaic standard, but in the reign of Ptolemaios III they were close enough for it to be comparatively irrelevant. Anyway, that's slightly more than a third of the state budget on mercenary wages; upkeep of the navy is an entirely different matter (and one for which I have managed to find jack squat), and extraordinary campaigning costs would be (much) higher. That guess is also somewhat inexact, but it's the best I can do under the circumstances. Budgetary information is damnably hard to come by in this period. I can't tell you how much of the remaining wealth was set aside for the king's personal use, and how much the bureaucracy cost, but that 1/3 on mercs is fairly solid.
 
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