New Beta Patch - 2/4

[Stickerbrush]

It's not just horses, most strategic resources suffer from the same issue. I can understand maybe civs like mongols/huns/whatever warmonger civ needing those that badly, but almost everyone is willing to give their money away for strategics at insane prices.

I'm not sure if this behavior is supposed to be intended

 

[Recursive]

I'm not sure if this is an issue with this patch specifically, but just started a game (Deity/Epic) and realized that AI values horses a bit too much. It's turn 130, I'm sitting on a gold income of +125/turn and currently exporting 22 horses to 5 different civilizations at 4-5g/horse/turn. I've been doing this since very early game (capital has 12 horses) and I can honestly say that my whole civilization at this point is built on top of horse export. This would be fine in general, but I feel that the AI is just blindly accepting all horse-related trades regardless of whether or not they actually need horses. Basically, any time an AI had a gold income of more than 7/turn I sold them a horse for 5g/turn and they always happily accepted.

To illustrate my point, Ethiopia currently has 10 spare horses and they are importing 6 from me for a total of 33g/turn, while their actual income is +4g/turn and has been between negative and +10g for the whole time. So during the whole game, they've never been rich enough to justify such expensive horse purchases.

For the last ~8 games, horse sales have been pretty much the only way I've been able to keep up with early game AI at Deity level, but I don't think I've ever seen AI loving horses this much.

It's not just horses, most strategic resources suffer from the same issue. I can understand maybe civs like mongols/huns/whatever warmonger civ needing those that badly, but almost everyone is willing to give their money away for strategics at insane prices.

I'm not sure if this behavior is supposed to be intended

These should go on Github.

 

[John.B.C]

I'm not sure if this is an issue with this patch specifically, but just started a game (Deity/Epic) and realized that AI values horses a bit too much. It's turn 130, I'm sitting on a gold income of +125/turn and currently exporting 22 horses to 5 different civilizations at 4-5g/horse/turn. I've been doing this since very early game (capital has 12 horses) and I can honestly say that my whole civilization at this point is built on top of horse export. This would be fine in general, but I feel that the AI is just blindly accepting all horse-related trades regardless of whether or not they actually need horses. Basically, any time an AI had a gold income of more than 7/turn I sold them a horse for 5g/turn and they always happily accepted.

To illustrate my point, Ethiopia currently has 10 spare horses and they are importing 6 from me for a total of 33g/turn, while their actual income is +4g/turn and has been between negative and +10g for the whole time. So during the whole game, they've never been rich enough to justify such expensive horse purchases.

For the last ~8 games, horse sales have been pretty much the only way I've been able to keep up with early game AI at Deity level, but I don't think I've ever seen AI loving horses this much.

4-5 gp isn't much for a horse. I do understand your point though... but... if the AI were to acctually start minding what they'd really need, I don't think trading would be a pleasurable experience for us humans playing the game.

The AI can do without the money (with all it's bonuses) but I certainly can't.

 

[DeAnno]

Anecdotally I think Egypt once gave me something like 150 gpt for 8 horses in early renaissance. I don't have the save but it seems to be a pretty common issue. Maybe there should just be a hard cap on the value of any strategic to the AI (probably scaling with era)?

I kind of don't like how the current Deity gold economy is so warped by trading strategics to the AI, it for one thing makes gold from other sources feel a bit bad.

 

[indrek_k]

but... if the AI were to acctually start minding what they'd really need, I don't think trading would be a pleasurable experience for us humans playing the game.

I vaguely remember from past games that the AI assigned more value to strategics that they didn't have - i.e. they paid more for the first batch of a specific resource traded to them and less for the next batches. Or something like that.

The AI can do without the money (with all it's bonuses) but I certainly can't.

I totally see what you mean, but I would hope there's a better way to balance the game on higher levels.


I will submit some issues on github soon. Thanks!

 

[Zuizgond]

I am trying to locate which file now contains the warmonger modifiers. Looks like AIWarmongerAdjustments in \Core Files\PNM Mods DB\DIPLO\ is now empty.

 

[Recursive]

I am trying to locate which file now contains the warmonger modifiers. Looks like AIWarmongerAdjustments in \Core Files\PNM Mods DB\DIPLO\ is now empty.

I moved it to Core Files/Core Values/CoreDefines.sql. Should be near the start of the file.

I'm actually in the process of revising the warmongering code.

 

[azum4roll]

Anecdotally I think Egypt once gave me something like 150 gpt for 8 horses in early renaissance. I don't have the save but it seems to be a pretty common issue. Maybe there should just be a hard cap on the value of any strategic to the AI (probably scaling with era)?

I kind of don't like how the current Deity gold economy is so warped by trading strategics to the AI, it for one thing makes gold from other sources feel a bit bad.

They probably had a ton of War Chariots to upgrade. Problem with strategic UUs.

 

[Recursive]

I moved it to Core Files/Core Values/CoreDefines.sql. Should be near the start of the file.

I'm actually in the process of revising the warmongering code.

I have cleaned up and revised ALL of the warmongering code. Took hours.

I added a bunch of new database values to CoreDefines.sql and adjusted the existing ones. Fixed (I think) all the bugs in the calculation too.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

I got into a war with Morocco (Russia and Morroco had a Joint war against me) for over 40 turns now, Russia Peaced out early but i cannot sign a peace treaty with Morocco at all (war score is 40 for me,They keep proposing impossible deals and they won't even sign a treaty without paying anything despite their war status being Large settlement and war weariness being disheartened).
The peace blocked is not active either.

 

[Recursive]

I got into a war with Morocco (Russia and Morroco had a Joint war against me) for over 40 turns now, Russia Peaced out early but i cannot sign a peace treaty with Morocco at all (war score is 40 for me,They keep proposing impossible deals and they won't even sign a treaty without paying anything despite their war status being Large settlement and war weariness being disheartened).
The peace blocked is not active either.

Are you using the latest hotfix? Also, bug reports should go on Github.

 

[voxm]

I've put together a multiplayer modpack (VP only, no additional mods, 2/4 hotfix 5) for anyone who's interested in using it: download here

Enjoy!

 

[General_Drax]

Maybe it's just me but Ais got turbomode in last patch.

On Emperor Turn 82 as Rome: I have 5 cities, Aztec 12, Iroquais 15 ! Beside they beeline my capital with forward settling + general citadel stealing half my land. Very funny.

Next game: Sweden Turn 64. Settled again 5 cities and discovered America that in 5 turns settled 2 cities (8 total) within 5 tiles of Stockholm then used a general to citadel steal both my luxuries and the iron mine. Game over.

This in on Emperor after struggling vs an horde of barbarians (about 20/30 from 4 encampment).

It's like AIs got back their massive bonus on founding cities letting them chain settling all over the map at an impressive rate.

Reverting back to 1.15 to play some 'normal' game. I can fight them back but need time to develop a bit. At the moment the combination of bonus + massive aggression do not allow even start a game. Getting curbstomped is not my kind of playing especially on difficulty I'm used to.

 

[BornDownUnder]

Maybe it's just me but Ais got turbomode in last patch.

On Emperor Turn 82 as Rome: I have 5 cities, Aztec 12, Iroquais 15 ! Beside they beeline my capital with forward settling + general citadel stealing half my land. Very funny.

Next game: Sweden Turn 64. Settled again 5 cities and discovered America that in 5 turns settled 2 cities (8 total) within 5 tiles of Stockholm then used a general to citadel steal both my luxuries and the iron mine. Game over.

This in on Emperor after struggling vs an horde of barbarians (about 20/30 from 4 encampment).

It's like AIs got back their massive bonus on founding cities letting them chain settling all over the map at an impressive rate.

Reverting back to 1.15 to play some 'normal' game. I can fight them back but need time to develop a bit. At the moment the combination of bonus + massive aggression do not allow even start a game. Getting curbstomped is not my kind of playing especially on difficulty I'm used to.

Why not drop down 1 difficulty and regroup, perhaps something you overlooked? Granted I test-play on Marathon game speed at present and I am yet to see the AI have a number of cities far outweighing my own, even when I turtle for wonder stacking in some test runs.

 

[abulafia77]

On hotfix 5, several games, King difficulty, I am experiencing the opposite: loads of free space due to wide spacing of civilizations and city states - not very helpful playing as Vikings - and slow AI settlement.

 

[General_Drax]

@abulafia77 I played on hotfix 4 on King and experienced the same. I called a victory in early industrial because I was snowballing so hard that the game was already over: just mopping up some afraid civs.

So I went to Emperor for hotfix 5 with Rome (my preferred civ) but cannot even start plating before the AIs spam settling me. I could win on Emperor 6/10 but at least it's a fair game on standard condition.

I'll try King again to compare 4 vs 5.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Maybe it's just me but Ais got turbomode in last patch.

On Emperor Turn 82 as Rome: I have 5 cities, Aztec 12, Iroquais 15 ! Beside they beeline my capital with forward settling + general citadel stealing half my land. Very funny.

Next game: Sweden Turn 64. Settled again 5 cities and discovered America that in 5 turns settled 2 cities (8 total) within 5 tiles of Stockholm then used a general to citadel steal both my luxuries and the iron mine. Game over.

This in on Emperor after struggling vs an horde of barbarians (about 20/30 from 4 encampment).

I've played two games on emperor on the latest patch (hotfix 5), and I haven't observed anything similar. In one game I had Songhai and Iroquis nearby, and in my current game, I have Austria, Arabia and India. All of them settled cities at a reasonable pace - 4-6 cities by turn 80-100. I don't even know how an emperor AI can churn out enough settlers to settle 12 or 15 cities by turn 80. The latter is the equivalent of 1 settler every ~5 turns for the entire game until that point
I'm inclined to think this might be a bug.

 

[Acaerus]

CTD on next turn can someone try it out? (all latest hotfixes)

 

[General_Drax]

I've played two games on emperor on the latest patch (hotfix 5), and I haven't observed anything similar. In one game I had Songhai and Iroquis nearby, and in my current game, I have Austria, Arabia and India. All of them settled cities at a reasonable pace - 4-6 cities by turn 80-100. I don't even know how an emperor AI can churn out enough settlers to settle 12 or 15 cities by turn 80. The latter is the equivalent of 1 settler every ~5 turns for the entire game until that point
I'm inclined to think this might be a bug.

I have to really test it out. At the moment i'm playing with 3/4UC, better lakes and RAS only, choosing Communitu as map gameplay wise. Turned off again all events and ruins. I'll perform a clean install of VP, apply last beta + hotfix 5 and try again.

If it's a bug I need to understand where to look.

The really strange behaviour is the chain settling: America set one city 8 tiles from my capital and TWO turns later another 4 tiles away then the turn after used the GG to steal land. I did not have engineering yet so could not deploy a fort to stop the spawning. If this is an improvement of AI is incredibly well done: it's an human level rush perfectly timed: keeping two settlers and a General to cripple an enemy Civ is amazing.

 

[Gazebo]

I think I'm cursed. Kid gets well, and now a massive blizzard has clogged up my state. Hooray. Intermittent internet outages, great fun. I'll get on this once things settle down. Not gone, just crippled by infrastructure and tasks.