New Beta Version (b) - January 10th (1/10b)

[Funak]

Tech-trading isn't broken. Problem is that, since people turn it off, I get no feedback on changes that we've made to it. That's why default settings are what they are – if people continually change/edit the default settings, I cannot gain feedback on what is working.

I'm sorry, but I'm really not interested in having less fun by using a feature that I don't think should be in the game.

 

[Iamblichos]

IMO, tech trading works fine, it's late and it's not exactly 'easy' to trade for.

 

[Jippes]

Issues I have:

1. Denounce button doesn't have text
2. Gold cost of purchasing tiles is showing random numbers.

I have deleted cache and LUA folders in (1) and (2). Using EUI aswell. And its a fresh new game.

 

[Aristos]

I'm sorry, but I'm really not interested in having less fun by using a feature that I don't think should be in the game.

I am another one that disables TT and enables RAs. TT just does not have a place in civ games anymore, I have been disabling it since the times of the infamous civ4 tech whoring AI's... just not fun.

 

[joosegoose25]

That explains why it's borked. Noticed the "icon" (the guarded shield) doesn't appear sometimes and is offset slightly to the left rather than above the unit.

Nothing big but noticeable.

I thought I noticed something off...

Spoiler :

That warrior is south of my spearman, not to the west like the icon might make you think. The other Byzantine warrior on screen is offset as well.

Spoiler :

This view of my scout is pretty telling, I think.

Not the biggest of deals, but I keep getting confused when needing to navigate around units/fight wars.

 

[merill]

some feedback for tech trading:
i'm leading in tech (industrial & atomic).
AI propose to get a tech for less than 100 gold, or a resource.
I think my tech are far more valuable than that.
In this party, maybe the only thing more valuable than an other tech is a coral (only one city as a worked tile, and almost every city in the world want it). But India keep it, even if it's my best friend with same ideology and defense pact, i can't trade it. Why? A luxury isn't that important now with the new happiness system. Next time, i will use the transparent diplomacy option.

I only use tech trading to make insane gift to my allies to help them to have a decent army. i am not sure they value that accordingly either. Maybe i should try to trade 4-5 tech against a vassalage? I never had any success to obtain a vassal nor a capitulation.

 

[Funak]

some feedback for tech trading:
i'm leading in tech (industrial & atomic).
AI propose to get a tech for less than 100 gold, or a resource.
I think my tech are far more valuable than that.
In this party, maybe the only thing more valuable than an other tech is a coral (only one city as a worked tile, and almost every city in the world want it). But India keep it, even if it's my best friend with same ideology and defense pact, i can't trade it. Why? A luxury isn't that important now with the new happiness system. Next time, i will use the transparent diplomacy option.

This is pretty much my experience as well, and since I'm paranoid I just assume that all the AI share everything with each-other for those sums.

 

[merill]

Don't think so. My tech lead is increasing. Maybe the value is computed as low because it's an old tech for me?

Or perhaps i snowball way too much with industry/freedom.

 

[Gazebo]

This is pretty much my experience as well, and since I'm paranoid I just assume that all the AI share everything with each-other for those sums.

They don't. They value their 'from' worth far more than their 'to' worth, so they'll underpay and overvalue them somewhat (unless you are best bros).

G

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I'd be nice to have an additional "value" thing added to Trade Table.

So that each item has a "value" to it and depending on the relationship you would have a modifiers that would determine if the AI would accept

For example

Byzantine has Gems that's worth 30 points

Greece has 300 gold. 5 per turn.

Let's assume that 1 gold is worth 1 point, and, 1 gold per turn is worth 10 points.

A good deal would be

Byzantine - Gems (30 points)

Greece - 2 gold per turn (20 points) and 10 gold (10 points) for a total of (30 points)

But since Byzantine and Greece are Friends then Byzantine could consider a reduction of 25% so you'd only need to have 23 points worth of stuff in order for her to accept that deal.

>.> I'm hopeful aren't I

Also, I still think that War Score should be implemented between human players. It is in Beyond Earth and for roleplaying rasons as well as fairness (prevents one guy being a douche and demanding everything from his buddy who only lost 1 unit)

But that's just me and my evil hopeful dreams xD

 

[Gazebo]

I'd be nice to have an additional "value" thing added to Trade Table.

So that each item has a "value" to it and depending on the relationship you would have a modifiers that would determine if the AI would accept

For example

Byzantine has Gems that's worth 30 points

Greece has 300 gold. 5 per turn.

Let's assume that 1 gold is worth 1 point, and, 1 gold per turn is worth 10 points.

A good deal would be

Byzantine - Gems (30 points)

Greece - 2 gold per turn (20 points) and 10 gold (10 points) for a total of (30 points)

But since Byzantine and Greece are Friends then Byzantine could consider a reduction of 25% so you'd only need to have 23 points worth of stuff in order for her to accept that deal.

>.> I'm hopeful aren't I

Also, I still think that War Score should be implemented between human players. It is in Beyond Earth and for roleplaying rasons as well as fairness (prevents one guy being a douche and demanding everything from his buddy who only lost 1 unit)

But that's just me and my evil hopeful dreams xD

War score can't be accomplished for humans, as the data isn't properly initialized for humans. Besides, humans (unlike the AI) are more capable of generating their own theoretical war scores via discussion/observation.

A trade value system for the UI for trade is unlikely. Trade values are not generated for items in a deal until the deal is processed by the AI, which is not done as the item is added to the deal.

Comparisons to other games, even Civ:BE, are not helpful, as we only have the tools and DLL of Civ 5 to work with. The DLL is not 'the whole game,' it is purely the data engine. Interface, netcode, graphical engine, etc. are all locked away.

G

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

War score can't be accomplished for humans, as the data isn't properly initialized for humans. Besides, humans (unlike the AI) are more capable of generating their own theoretical war scores via discussion/observation.

A trade value system for the UI for trade is unlikely. Trade values are not generated for items in a deal until the deal is processed by the AI, which is not done as the item is added to the deal.

Comparisons to other games, even Civ:BE, are not helpful, as we only have the tools and DLL of Civ 5 to work with. The DLL is not 'the whole game,' it is purely the data engine. Interface, netcode, graphical engine, etc. are all locked away.

G

That's fair. but a man can dream

So how is score exactly calculated in Civ 5 then?

I'm secretly hoping for a Civ 5 patch that brings that feature in along with Modsupport for MP >.>

 

[Wario Mario]

Tech-trading isn't broken. Problem is that, since people turn it off, I get no feedback on changes that we've made to it. That's why default settings are what they are – if people continually change/edit the default settings, I cannot gain feedback on what is working.

G

What, am I the only one who likes tech trading?
It's another resource that can be traded, another layer added to the trading system, and I for one think it's awesome. I never understood the value of research agreements anyway - no one ever seems to be able to afford them (and you need a DoF on top of that? No thanks!).

My only issues with it are that it comes too late in the game and that AI always seem unwilling to sell techs (I think I have an easier time getting them to sell cities).

I personally think that tech trades should be enabled at Education. First, for logic reasons - once you've invented teaching, you should be able to teach others your techs. Second, for gameplay reasons - tech trades currently come way too late in the game to add much to the trading system.

 

[Gazebo]

That's fair. but a man can dream

So how is score exactly calculated in Civ 5 then?

I'm secretly hoping for a Civ 5 patch that brings that feature in along with Modsupport for MP >.>

Don't wish for that! I don't want to have to manage that merged DLL.

Score is complicated, but essentially, the AI evaluates the net worth of all of its cities, units, etc., and then takes 'damage' to this worth when a city/unit/tile is destroyed/pillaged. That's the basis of the warscore.

G

 

[Funak]

They don't. They value their 'from' worth far more than their 'to' worth, so they'll underpay and overvalue them somewhat (unless you are best bros).

I never said that they do, just that I'm paranoid.

Either way I really don't like the mechanic and I'm not going to use it. Research-agreements are fun, a good gold-dump and at least somewhat makes sense. Someone just handing the secret art of theology over to you in exchange for a briefcase with cash just seems weird to me.
besides, tech-trading comes online so late that I'm usually done with the game by the time I get there anyways.

 

[PerryCaravello]

I usually go for tech trading because it seems more fun and interactive to me. I have not found tech trading to be at all unbalanced in any games I have played with it.

As for if it makes sense to have tech trading in the game, these sorts of deals have gone down in reality. A very important tech trade happened very much like Funak describes in WW2. The British sent the USA a lot of their secret technology in a briefcase. This was for increased American support, so essentially money.

 

[heinous_hat]

Is there a valid game situation where the 'raze city' button would not be present after capture?

I started a game last night after several weeks off and encountered this... only annex, puppet and view were available options. Not sure whether I've missed some rule change the last few releases or I'm hitting a bug with the latest beta.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Is there a valid game situation where the 'raze city' button would not be present after capture?

I started a game last night after several weeks off and encountered this... only annex, puppet and view were available options. Not sure whether I've missed some rule change the last few releases or I'm hitting a bug with the latest beta.

Just checking the obvious...no Capital, CS or Indonesian City?

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Just checking the obvious...no Capital, CS or Indonesian City?

Are Indonesian cities still unreazable given that they simply spawn a resource next to them in the mod?

 

[heinous_hat]

Just checking the obvious...no Capital, CS or Indonesian City?

Nope. It was Brazilian, non-capital. I tried 'annex' to see if I could raze after that, but not there either.

Trying to repro in a fresh game.