New Beta Version - December 6th (12/6)

[Gazebo]

An adjacency bonus can be handled in LUA no problem. Written several like this, as have others, but not sure if Gazebo is open to that route.

Don't need to use lua.

Right now they stack, but I can make another table for non-stacking IF we need it. I don't think the +1 gold on surrounding tiles will be a problem, esp. if we reduce the base yields of the Polder to compensate.

G

 

[PurpleMentat]

Alrighty, on Polder yields. I am working under these assumptions:
- Polders should be competitive with farms on food. That is, they should equal a good farm but not the best farm. If you have to choose between them frequently and it's a hard choice, then it's not a unique bonus, it's a trade-off. We don't ask trade-offs for unique buildings and units, the same should apply to unique improvements.
- Polders can be built on marsh (keeping the 3 food) and adjacent to freshwater (which naturally includes next to lakes and on flood plains). They clear forests and jungles, and cannot be built on hills (doesn't work graphically or thematically)
- We want to encourage the Dutch build villages on roads next to polders, without encouraging maximum villages next to polders
- 'Flat, singular boost' assumes it will give the boost from the moment you have the improvement, and the boost can only effect one yield.
Base 3 Food 1 Gold, adjacent Villages +1 Food
with Economics +2 Gold
with Chemistry +1 Culture

Unless terrain gen goes crazy with rivers and lakes (which it does sometimes, this Oval I'm looking at is more river than not), you're unlikely to get more than 3 polders adjacent to a village, and 3 will be unusual itself. On Grassland, at Chemistry, this gives you 3 tiles of 5F 3G 1C, and 1 tile of 5F 2P 4G 1C. If you had built farms, you would have 4 tiles of 5F. The polder arrangement is giving the same food in a pretty good terrain situation, along with the cash, culture, and production.

If you were to replace a Polder with a Village not on a road, you would need 3 Polders adjacent to the village to break even. Village provides 2G 1C by default. On grassland with +3 food from the polders, it's a 5F 2G 1C tile. Good, but not as good as putting a polder there instead. Because polders must be build on freshwater, it is rather rare that they will be able to build the 'perfect' layout of 6 polders around 1 village. In the case that they do on Grassland, and you build your road and send your traderoute over your village, literal PERFECT conditions, you have 6 tiles of 5F 3G 1C and 1 tile of 8F 2P 4G 1C. Seven farms in the same situation would provide 6 tiles of 5F and 1 tile of 7F.

As for the terrace farm, I have a less solid opinion. I feel they should unlock at Construction, have another food base (2F 1P 1C), and provide +1F at Engineering. However, all of this is mainly thematically driven without deeply examining the mechanical balance implications. I have yet to play Inca in CBP. As far as adjacency goes, Food probably makes the most sense. Production or Culture could work.

 

[Llednar Twem]

You sound like you've thought a lot more than me about polder implementation, so I'll stick to the terrace farm here. My idea with the terrace farm is to encourage the player to actually build in a way that resembles tiered terraces. The recent band-aid buff of self adjacency should probably be kept but reduced to every two terrace farms. That would encourage trying to keep them in continuous "horizontal" tiers while still emphasizing the "vertical" relationship of farm to terrace to mountain.

To the end, the various bonuses should probably be...
+1 from every adjacent mountain
+1 from every two adjacent terrace farms
+1 to every adjacent farm

With the extensive bonuses being thrown around, base and tech yields probably don't need to be terribly high. Unlocking at Construction and giving
11 with another 11 at engineering is probably plenty, though I certainly wouldn't oppose trying out higher values to start with and nerfing if needed.

 

[Kolaris]

AIs are still refusing their own peace offerings.

Spoiler :

And yes, completely deleted prior version + fresh install from 12/6 + deleted cache + deleted .luas.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

You sound like you've thought a lot more than me about polder implementation, so I'll stick to the terrace farm here. My idea with the terrace farm is to encourage the player to actually build in a way that resembles tiered terraces. The recent band-aid buff of self adjacency should probably be kept but reduced to every two terrace farms. That would encourage trying to keep them in continuous "horizontal" tiers while still emphasizing the "vertical" relationship of farm to terrace to mountain.

To the end, the various bonuses should probably be...
+1 from every adjacent mountain
+1 from every two adjacent terrace farms
+1 to every adjacent farm

With the extensive bonuses being thrown around, base and tech yields probably don't need to be terribly high. Unlocking at Construction and giving
11 with another 11 at engineering is probably plenty, though I certainly wouldn't oppose trying out higher values to start with and nerfing if needed.

I think this needs to be
+1 to every 2 adjacent farms

Else isolated hills surrounded by flatlands would be crazy supertiles, and even better than those in a hilly area, which is not intended.

 

[zeta]

So... Are other beta versions incorporated?

 

[Llednar Twem]

I think this needs to be
+1 to every 2 adjacent farms

Else isolated hills surrounded by flatlands would be crazy supertiles, and even better than those in a hilly area, which is not intended.

Um...no. First of all, how would that even work? Second, the terrace to farm bonus is one way, whereas the terrace to terrace bonus is mutual. An adjacent farm is +1f to the farm, while an adjacent terrace is +.5f to both. They both total to +1f. Granted the actual mechanism means this isn't entirely true, but I think it's fine for the tiered bonus to be a bit stronger than the adjacency bonus.

 

[Funak]

I think this needs to be
+1 to every 2 adjacent farms

Else isolated hills surrounded by flatlands would be crazy supertiles, and even better than those in a hilly area, which is not intended.

That's exactly my point, +1 food to all adjacent farms is completely unreasonable. and +1 food to ever 2 adjacent farms is completely weak. It is way better to not rely on such things and just make the improvement strong in general.

 

[Llednar Twem]

It would be completely unreasonable if it was all on one tile. It's not. That +6 food to a ring of farms surrounding a lone hill isn't going to apply unless you use six citizens to work them all. Seven if you want to work the terrace farm too. That difference takes it from completely overpowered down to something I'm not sure is powerful ENOUGH, but still want to at least TRY.

 

[Funak]

Alrighty, on Polder yields. I am working under these assumptions:
- Polders should be competitive with farms on food. That is, they should equal a good farm but not the best farm. If you have to choose between them frequently and it's a hard choice, then it's not a unique bonus, it's a trade-off. We don't ask trade-offs for unique buildings and units, the same should apply to unique improvements.
- Polders can be built on marsh (keeping the 3 food) and adjacent to freshwater (which naturally includes next to lakes and on flood plains). They clear forests and jungles, and cannot be built on hills (doesn't work graphically or thematically)
- We want to encourage the Dutch build villages on roads next to polders, without encouraging maximum villages next to polders
- 'Flat, singular boost' assumes it will give the boost from the moment you have the improvement, and the boost can only effect one yield.
Base 3 Food 1 Gold, adjacent Villages +1 Food
with Economics +2 Gold
with Chemistry +1 Culture

Unless terrain gen goes crazy with rivers and lakes (which it does sometimes, this Oval I'm looking at is more river than not), you're unlikely to get more than 3 polders adjacent to a village, and 3 will be unusual itself. On Grassland, at Chemistry, this gives you 3 tiles of 5F 3G 1C, and 1 tile of 5F 2P 4G 1C. If you had built farms, you would have 4 tiles of 5F. The polder arrangement is giving the same food in a pretty good terrain situation, along with the cash, culture, and production.

If you were to replace a Polder with a Village not on a road, you would need 3 Polders adjacent to the village to break even. Village provides 2G 1C by default. On grassland with +3 food from the polders, it's a 5F 2G 1C tile. Good, but not as good as putting a polder there instead. Because polders must be build on freshwater, it is rather rare that they will be able to build the 'perfect' layout of 6 polders around 1 village. In the case that they do on Grassland, and you build your road and send your traderoute over your village, literal PERFECT conditions, you have 6 tiles of 5F 3G 1C and 1 tile of 8F 2P 4G 1C. Seven farms in the same situation would provide 6 tiles of 5F and 1 tile of 7F.

First of all, nice write-up, second I still don't like the idea of encouraging specific improvements(in this case villages) next to the polders, it just won't end well.
Second think it would make sense to still allow the polders on freshwater hills, yes it makes less sense, but getting punished for bad hill-placement would be annoying to say the least.
Third I think Polders buffing adjacent Polders makes a lot more sense than Polders buffing adjacent villages, mostly because Polders are pretty much farm-land.
Fourth, for the sake of keeping single marsh Polders relevant I would suggest letting adjacent Polders add something other than Food, maybe Gold. That way a Marsh with a Polder would still provide good food, but be lacking on gold compared to a huge river-delta.

For those reasons I would Probably have the Polder start out providing +3 food and +1 gold (slightly better than a farm) with an extra +1 gold for every 2 adjacent Polders. I would then probably have the polder grow in yields at 4 different techs, probably +1 yield each. +2 food (too keep up with farms getting food at fertilizer and from exploitation, imperialims) +1 gold and +1 culture (possibly just +2 culture)
Ending up with a polder providing +5 food +2 gold +1 culture and another +1 gold for every 2 adjacent polders.

It would be completely unreasonable if it was all on one tile. It's not. That +6 food to a ring of farms surrounding a lone hill isn't going to apply unless you use six citizens to work them all. Seven if you want to work the terrace farm too. That difference takes it from completely overpowered down to something I'm not sure is powerful ENOUGH, but still want to at least TRY.

Having citizens to work tiles really is not a problem here, cities grow to pop 20 in no time at all.

By the way why are we having this discussion here instead of in the Inca/Netherlands thread, seems completely uncalled for.

 

[Llednar Twem]

Funak, can you please stop trying to outright kill the idea to buff other improvements before it's had even a single test version? I'm honestly a bit terrified that I won't even get a chance to try it out because you'll theorycraft it to death before Gazebo releases a version with the mechanic actually present. Also, I've never had enough population that something like that wouldn't be an issue, but I'm not really all that good at the game.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Oh, I misread your suggestion. If it is giving the bonus to farms instead of receiving it - well, that is difficult to judge. It could work, but seems quite strong, as you can have your cake and eat it - i.e., have your good UI, but still get the bonus of continuous farmlands.
Maybe the bonus to farms could come at a late tech (industrial age probably?).

Other than that, Funak is actually right, we should move this over to the respective civ threads.

 

[Funak]

Funak, can you please stop trying to outright kill the idea to buff other improvements before it's had even a single test version? I'm honestly a bit terrified that I won't even get a chance to try it out because you'll theorycraft it to death before Gazebo releases a version with the mechanic actually present. Also, I've never had enough population that something like that wouldn't be an issue, but I'm not really all that good at the game.

You do realize that your idea is completely opposed to my idea right? So you're trying to outright kill my idea before it had a single test version?

 

[Cerest]

The war score thing is a bit buggy.

It goes from negative to positive.

When it's negative, hitting the "what deal would grant us peace" button gets me an offer, but the AI doesn't accept it.

When it's negative like that, any offer that I give the AI where it's favorable to them they accept.

If I restart the game, it becomes positive again, and acts normally.

 

[Gazebo]

AIs are still refusing their own peace offerings.

Spoiler :

And yes, completely deleted prior version + fresh install from 12/6 + deleted cache + deleted .luas.

The fact that the value on the right is negative makes no sense, as it can only be positive. I tested it a bunch and never encountered that...send me your save and modlist, if you can.

The war score thing is a bit buggy.

Same for you, Cerest. Save and modlist.

G

 

[Kolaris]

She eventually accepted one of my offers for vassalage. I'll see if I can get another one.

 

[Gazebo]

Alrighty, on Polder yields. I am working under these assumptions:
- Polders should be competitive with farms on food. That is, they should equal a good farm but not the best farm. If you have to choose between them frequently and it's a hard choice, then it's not a unique bonus, it's a trade-off. We don't ask trade-offs for unique buildings and units, the same should apply to unique improvements.
- Polders can be built on marsh (keeping the 3 food) and adjacent to freshwater (which naturally includes next to lakes and on flood plains). They clear forests and jungles, and cannot be built on hills (doesn't work graphically or thematically)
- We want to encourage the Dutch build villages on roads next to polders, without encouraging maximum villages next to polders
- 'Flat, singular boost' assumes it will give the boost from the moment you have the improvement, and the boost can only effect one yield.
Base 3 Food 1 Gold, adjacent Villages +1 Food
with Economics +2 Gold
with Chemistry +1 Culture

Unless terrain gen goes crazy with rivers and lakes (which it does sometimes, this Oval I'm looking at is more river than not), you're unlikely to get more than 3 polders adjacent to a village, and 3 will be unusual itself. On Grassland, at Chemistry, this gives you 3 tiles of 5F 3G 1C, and 1 tile of 5F 2P 4G 1C. If you had built farms, you would have 4 tiles of 5F. The polder arrangement is giving the same food in a pretty good terrain situation, along with the cash, culture, and production.

If you were to replace a Polder with a Village not on a road, you would need 3 Polders adjacent to the village to break even. Village provides 2G 1C by default. On grassland with +3 food from the polders, it's a 5F 2G 1C tile. Good, but not as good as putting a polder there instead. Because polders must be build on freshwater, it is rather rare that they will be able to build the 'perfect' layout of 6 polders around 1 village. In the case that they do on Grassland, and you build your road and send your traderoute over your village, literal PERFECT conditions, you have 6 tiles of 5F 3G 1C and 1 tile of 8F 2P 4G 1C. Seven farms in the same situation would provide 6 tiles of 5F and 1 tile of 7F.

As for the terrace farm, I have a less solid opinion. I feel they should unlock at Construction, have another food base (2F 1P 1C), and provide +1F at Engineering. However, all of this is mainly thematically driven without deeply examining the mechanical balance implications. I have yet to play Inca in CBP. As far as adjacency goes, Food probably makes the most sense. Production or Culture could work.

As a reminder, the adjacency bonus can't scale with tech without a major rewrite (and it'd be really expensive DLL-wise). So it can only give the bonus as a 'flat' bonus.

My .02:

Polder:
Must have access to fresh water.
Base stats: +1 Food, +1 Gold
Bonus: Adjacent Trading Posts/Towns gain +1 Gold, adjacent Farms gain +1 Food.
Polder Tech Yield boost: +1 Gold at Economics, +1 Culture at Chemistry

Terrace Farm
Must be built on a hill.
Base stats: +2 Food, +1 Production
Bonus: +1 Food for every adjacent Mountain. Adjacent Farms gain +1 Production.
Terrace Farm Tech Yield boost: same as standard farm, but also +1 Culture at Engineering and +1 Culture at Archaeology

G

 

[Cerest]

The fact that the value on the right is negative makes no sense, as it can only be positive. I tested it a bunch and never encountered that...send me your save and modlist, if you can.

Same for you, Cerest. Save and modlist.

G

Thing is, it goes away on reload. :S

I can't even tell which save it is that did have the problem in my autosaves. I just use IGE + full mod/EUI

 

[Gazebo]

Thing is, it goes away on reload. :S

I can't even tell which save it is that did have the problem in my autosaves. I just use IGE + full mod/EUI

Bizarre. And the trade worked after the reload? I wonder if the max peace value isn't being cached or recached properly...

Tell me, what was your warscore when it happened?

G

 

[Cerest]

Bizarre. And the trade worked after the reload? I wonder if the max peace value isn't being cached or recached properly...

Tell me, what was your warscore when it happened?

G

Really low. It was a worker/settler harass war (maybe like 110ish). Yeah it worked after I reloaded the game.