New Beta Version - December 6th (12/6)

[Gazebo]

Really low. It was a worker/settler harass war (maybe like 110ish). Yeah it worked after I reloaded the game.

I think I know what's up. The cached value isn't resetting properly during a war - I can fix this without breaking saves. I'll do so this evening.

G

 

[Funak]

As a reminder, the adjacency bonus can't scale with tech without a major rewrite (and it'd be really expensive DLL-wise). So it can only give the bonus as a 'flat' bonus.

My .02:

Polder:
Must have access to fresh water.
Base stats: +1 Food, +1 Gold
Bonus: Adjacent Trading Posts/Towns gain +1 Gold, adjacent Farms gain +1 Food.
Polder Tech Yield boost: +1 Gold at Economics, +1 Culture at Chemistry

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the only way to make this balance is to have these terribly low garbage-yields. This is just not fun to me.

Terrace Farm
Must be built on a hill.
Base stats: +2 Food, +1 Production
Bonus: +1 Food for every adjacent Mountain. Adjacent Farms gain +1 Production.
Terrace Farm Tech Yield boost: same as standard farm, but also +1 Culture at Engineering and +1 Culture at Archaeology

This is probably overpowered, and it still isn't fun to me. Says a lot about the whole adjacency thing.

 

[Edaka]

As a reminder, the adjacency bonus can't scale with tech without a major rewrite (and it'd be really expensive DLL-wise). So it can only give the bonus as a 'flat' bonus.

My .02:

Polder:
Must have access to fresh water.
Base stats: +1 Food, +1 Gold
Bonus: Adjacent Trading Posts/Towns gain +1 Gold, adjacent Farms gain +1 Food.
Polder Tech Yield boost: +1 Gold at Economics, +1 Culture at Chemistry

Terrace Farm
Must be built on a hill.
Base stats: +2 Food, +1 Production
Bonus: +1 Food for every adjacent Mountain. Adjacent Farms gain +1 Production.
Terrace Farm Tech Yield boost: same as standard farm, but also +1 Culture at Engineering and +1 Culture at Archaeology

G

I'm not against that kind of mechanic with terrace farms - their required terrain doesn't overlap with that of farms (almost) and the two improvements provide completely different yields (almost), so that kind of mechanic wouldn't create too many awkward choices of whether to build a tile improvement or a unique tile improvement. Situations like these may make me question the strength (awesomeness) of unique improvements. They should be awesome if you ask me

It's an entirely different story with polders. Both their yields and their terrain requirement overlap like crazy with farms. It wouldn't help if polders buffed regular tile improvements like farms to the extent where the latters' yields became better than the formers'. It would create awfully many situations when you'd bebetter off building regular farms instead of your glorious polders just to get that adjacency bonus from another polder nearby, because it's more effective yield-wise. I don't think any UI atm can be worse than a farm in as many situations as polders would (presumably, looking into the possible future here and judging by the proposals for adjacency buffs and polders' base yields so far). I'm with Funak on making them stronger than farms (possibly, but not necessarily), buildable on fresh-water terrain and perhaps buffing adjacent polders eki style.

Edit: by the way, how could I forget about the aesthetics part! I also agree with Funak that polders are pretty, to see them alligned would be a great pleasure. To see them sporadically pop out in between farms and villages one or two tiles apart from each other wouldn't.

 

[Cerest]

Another random issue o.o

I'm getting circular WLTKD resource demands.

Every city just seems to demand whale + perfume, which I obtain from city states. After every WLTKD it resets back to whale + perfume and WLTKD triggers the following turn.

 

[Gazebo]

It would create awfully many situations when you'd bebetter off building regular farms instead of your glorious polders just to get that adjacency bonus from another polder nearby, because it's more effective yield-wise...I'm with Funak on making them buildable on fresh-water terrain and perhaps buffing adjacent polders eki style.

Eh? I don't understand your argument. Polders have higher base yields than farms, and buff farms on a 1:6 ratio (i.e. 1 polder can influence up to 6 farms) instead of a 2:1 ratio (i.e. 2 farms can influence 1 other farm). So why would you ever not build a polder, especially if you can then surround it with a mix of farms and trading posts? Even considering farm adjacency the Polders would give you more base yields on nearby farms than the adjacency possibly could. If you covered a river, end-to-end, with polders, all farms adjacent to them would have anywhere from +2 to +5 additional food (depending on the shape of the river), not to mention any adjacency bonuses you could create for those farms based on river-shape. Throw in a trading post or two if desired, and you've got a solid set of tiles that really boost the power of farms.

NOW, that said, I'm perfectly fine with stepping back and, to further distinguish Polders from Terrace Farms, making Polders focus exclusively on villages/towns. The bonus would need to be stronger than +1 gold, though.

G

 

[Funak]

Eh? I don't understand your argument. Polders have higher base yields than farms

I'm going to stop you right there.

Polder:
Must have access to fresh water.
Base stats: +1 Food, +1 Gold
Bonus: Adjacent Trading Posts/Towns gain +1 Gold, adjacent Farms gain +1 Food.
Polder Tech Yield boost: +1 Gold at Economics, +1 Culture at Chemistry

By the time you get to guilds(spent time building polders) you will have reached civil service meaning your freshwater farms (and polders can only be built on freshwater, so that part is pointless to argue about) provide you with +2 food. Arguably a lot better than +1 food +1 gold. Polders gets another +1 gold at economcis and +1 culture at chemistry, Farms gets another +1 food +1 hammer from exploitation.
1f 2g 1c is still worse than 3f 1h.


I can perfectly understand that the yields need to be that low, but unique improvements that are weaker than normal improvements are not fun (at least to me)

 

[Gazebo]

I'm going to stop you right there.


By the time you get to guilds(spent time building polders) you will have reached civil service meaning your freshwater farms (and polders can only be built on freshwater, so that part is pointless to argue about) provide you with +2 food. Arguably a lot better than +1 food +1 gold. Polders gets another +1 gold at economcis and +1 culture at chemistry, Farms gets another +1 food +1 hammer from exploitation.
1f 2g 1c is still worse than 3f 1h.


I can perfectly understand that the yields need to be that low, but unique improvements that are weaker than normal improvements are not fun (at least to me)

Base yields. Not tech-enhanced, not policy-enhanced.

G

 

[PurpleMentat]

As a reminder, the adjacency bonus can't scale with tech without a major rewrite (and it'd be really expensive DLL-wise). So it can only give the bonus as a 'flat' bonus.

o.0 My write-up never scaled the adjacency bonus. It was +1 food to villages, at all times. The examples I showed included the bonuses you'd have for those improvments at Chemistry, with the layouts mentioned (roads and traderoutes providing 1 hammer 1 gold to the village each as apropriate)

If your example is what you considered balanced for a UI, then I'm not sure I can be helpful to this conversation. The UBs in the mod that they take the place of are pretty universally amazing. a 1F 1G improvement is garbage if it doesn't self buff, and it never compares favorably in food generation with a plot of farms. I think I'd rather see the adjacency thing abandoned and focus made on making the UI an 'always build' than try to implement things at that balance point.

By the time you get to guilds(spent time building polders) you will have reached civil service meaning your freshwater farms (and polders can only be built on freshwater, so that part is pointless to argue about) provide you with +2 food. Arguably a lot better than +1 food +1 gold. Polders gets another +1 gold at economcis and +1 culture at chemistry, Farms gets another +1 food +1 hammer from exploitation.
1f 2g 1c is still worse than 3f 1h.

While I agree that version of the polder is worse than farms, I don't think it's fair to include Exploitation in Farms. Policy choices are many and varied, unless Imperialism is so dominant that it's always better to use it, in which case it needs adjustment.

 

[PurpleMentat]

d'oh.

 

[Funak]

Base yields. Not tech-enhanced, not policy-enhanced.

Well polders aren't available until guilds, and guilds require more techs than civil service, so that' comparison is fair.

The later was just an analysis, if you decide to go for imperialism, farms will completely blow polders away, which is totally not a good spot for a unique improvement to be in.

 

[Cerest]

Well polders aren't available until guilds, and guilds require more techs than civil service, so that' comparison is fair.

The later was just an analysis, if you decide to go for imperialism, farms will completely blow polders away, which is totally not a good spot for a unique improvement to be in.

And I feel like most people who play the Netherlands like Imperialism anyway, due to the Great Admiral spam working well with their UA.

 

[Llednar Twem]

I apologize for my irritability last night. In my defense, it was 3:30 AM here. I really need to stop trying to debate things here so late at night. I suppose this conversation also feels a bit...groundless? Shaky? I'm not sure how to put it, but basically this is a completely new mechanic. Heavy yields but spread out across up to seven tiles. Stackable effects but only with a well designed layout. The potential for terrain and resources to get in the way, and how much that will actually come up. It just feels like theoretical discussion can only really get us so far here, and we'll be much more able to judge how it should be balanced once we've been able to try it out in practice.

 

[Funak]

It just feels like theoretical discussion can only really get us so far here, and we'll be much more able to judge how it should be balanced once we've been able to try it out in practice.

I would like to point out that this is not a balance discussion. It is quite possible to balance this sort of mechanic, it is quite possible that it is already balanced. The issue is that having unique improvements with such low yields just isn't fun to me. I might be alone on that, but I assume that I'm not, Uniques should feel cool and impressive, and this one really doesn't feel like either, just because the yields it provides is going to be spread out between the 6 adjacent farms. In my opinion whenever you have the opportunity to build a unique improvement you should be happy and build it, not spacing them out to fit as many farms around them as possible.

 

[Edaka]

Eh? I don't understand your argument. Polders have higher base yields than farms, and buff farms on a 1:6 ratio (i.e. 1 polder can influence up to 6 farms) instead of a 2:1 ratio (i.e. 2 farms can influence 1 other farm). So why would you ever not build a polder, especially if you can then surround it with a mix of farms and trading posts? Even considering farm adjacency the Polders would give you more base yields on nearby farms than the adjacency possibly could. If you covered a river, end-to-end, with polders, all farms adjacent to them would have anywhere from +2 to +5 additional food (depending on the shape of the river), not to mention any adjacency bonuses you could create for those farms based on river-shape. Throw in a trading post or two if desired, and you've got a solid set of tiles that really boost the power of farms.

NOW, that said, I'm perfectly fine with stepping back and, to further distinguish Polders from Terrace Farms, making Polders focus exclusively on villages/towns. The bonus would need to be stronger than +1 gold, though.

G

Sorry, I suppose I wasn't clear enough. Funak has it more or less the way I was thinking:

In my opinion whenever you have the opportunity to build a unique improvement you should be happy and build it, not spacing them out to fit as many farms around them as possible.

Perhaps polders buffing villages and towns could work - we could at least test the new adjacency mechanic and it would be somewhat thematic, too. In that case, though, polders should probably have higher yields than farms because you can't stack too many villages around. Either that or, as you said, the village bonus needs to be higher, but I think everyone loves their UIs being supertiles, not basic tiles (silly argument )

 

[Funak]

Perhaps polders buffing villages and towns could work - we could at least test the new adjacency mechanic and it would be somewhat thematic, too. In that case, though, polders should probably have higher yields than farms because you can't stack too many villages around. Either that or, as you said, the village bonus needs to be higher, but I think everyone loves their UIs being supertiles, not basic tiles (silly argument )

I'm actually not too high on having to build villages in the middle of the floodplains either. Seriously, don't get me wrong here, I think the mechanic of buffing nearby tiles is kinda interesting (it kinda fails here because 1 yield on all nearby tiles is just too much), I just don't like the idea that replacing your unique improvement with a normal non-unique improvement would be optimal.

 

[Avectus]

A few pieces of feedback around balance from the beta version vs the current release (mostly around religion)

• Mastery - This seems relatively balanced down from 3, it might be better (if its allowed by the engine) to have it start at 1 and increase to 2 at medieval age
• Sainthood - I think this gives too much faith, decrease by 25%
• To the Glory of God - This is a hugely welcomed change, however the faith on it is probably going to cause issues when stacked with some other things. Removing the faith would still make it hugely viable. Potentially increase other yields slightly to compensate.
• Dido's base ability - The gold you get from settling cities seems way too high early on. I was able to buy extra workers, rush buildings and wonders and be extremely competitive with the AI on higher difficulties in the early game. Comboed with her boat shes extremely potent on any costal/island map at early war since she can just buy a few early boats (Rushing Venice early on was extremely effective and he couldn't really fight back). I am not sure how to balance the gold amount down, it seems incredibly strong (similar to how old pacal was with calendar requirement for GP).
• St Basil's Cathedral - Possibly add a unique building like a free church to it. The free social policy was pretty OP, right now it seems underwhelming for the cost unless you know you can't spread your religion to enough population.

In my current game play through (Emp difficulty and a new one on immortal) I have stacked Ceremonial Burial, Sainthood, To the Glory of God, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, University of Sankore. I started pooling great people (I did use some of them earlier engineers/scientists) and saving them for the moment I hit industrial. Upon getting there I was able to slingshot so much faith that I quickly eclipsed all players in tech due to spamming scientists/Writers/Great Admirals/Merchants/a few diplomats. This was simply because every time I used a great person I would get ~1700 faith each time I used a great person. This seems mostly a stacking interaction issue more so than individual items being overpowered. Ceremonial burial having its perks inverted (faith per unit killed first, GP expenditure second) would probably help slightly, I would at least need to spread my religion first (I was doing that anyways since I wasn't building the nerfed saint basil). To the Glory of God seems a little over powered right now as well in comparison to other reformation

Possibly I hit the RNG jackpot both times and got civs that allowed me to do this (not sure what the AI favoring on those wonders/religious perks are). However it seems stupidly strong considering prior to doing this I struggled to survive and stay semi-relevant into the industrial era on emperor a lot of the time.

Just wanted to provide some feedback, really enjoying the changes and thank you for your work on this.

 

[Funak]

A few pieces of feedback around balance from the beta version vs the current release (mostly around religion)

Counterfeedback

Mastery - This seems relatively balanced down from 3, it might be better (if its allowed by the engine) to have it start at 1 and increase to 2 at medieval age

Would that even be possible? I personally think it is pretty fine at 2, you don't have enough food to run that many specialists early on anyways.

Sainthood - I think this gives too much faith, decrease by 25%

I'd say reduce to 100 base or something, it is way powerful.

To the Glory of God - This is a hugely welcomed change, however the faith on it is probably going to cause issues when stacked with some other things. Removing the faith would still make it hugely viable. Potentially increase other yields slightly to compensate.

I honestly think it provides way too much, I'd lower all yields to 50 base or something, it would still be crazy powerful, providing 200 yields when used, as opposed to 80 for ceremonial burial and 100 for splendor. Just a thought.

Dido's base ability - The gold you get from settling cities seems way too high early on. I was able to buy extra workers, rush buildings and wonders and be extremely competitive with the AI on higher difficulties in the early game. Comboed with her boat shes extremely potent on any costal/island map at early war since she can just buy a few early boats (Rushing Venice early on was extremely effective and he couldn't really fight back). I am not sure how to balance the gold amount down, it seems incredibly strong (similar to how old pacal was with calendar requirement for GP).

I really don't agree here, the gold is just barely enough to rush a worker per city settled, not really amazing. Sure Carthage is going to have a lot more gold early on than other civs, but without it their UA wouldn't be very good.

St Basil's Cathedral - Possibly add a unique building like a free church to it. The free social policy was pretty OP, right now it seems underwhelming for the cost unless you know you can't spread your religion to enough population.

Honestly the entire wonder feels rather lackluster now imho.
Terrible yields and so on.

University of Sankore also feels rather underwhelming (50 science really is nothing), but at least that one provides a free mosque (which interestingly enough makes the mosque belief pretty terrible )

 

[Avectus]

Would that even be possible? I personally think it is pretty fine at 2, you don't have enough food to run that many specialists early on anyways.

Two is fine, it just seems a little strong till Medieval, not really overpowered.

I'd say reduce to 100 base or something, it is way powerful.

That might be too severe of nerf.

I honestly think it provides way too much, I'd lower all yields to 50 base or something, it would still be crazy powerful, providing 200 yields when used, as opposed to 80 for ceremonial burial and 100 for splendor. Just a thought.

I really feel the main issue is the faith that is crazy powerful, the culture us pretty powerful also. You are generally getting massive GPT and science by the time this becomes relevant.

I really don't agree here, the gold is just barely enough to rush a worker per city settled, not really amazing. Sure Carthage is going to have a lot more gold early on than other civs, but without it their UA wouldn't be very good.

I need to play around with some of the other civs on emperor/immortal to figure out where she fits in the power ranking. Don't forget that if you set up your early expansion correctly the free harbors reduce the requirements for roads for removing disconnected. Again not saying she is overpowered, just seems strong compared to say Rome.

Terrible yields and so on.

University of Sankore also feels rather underwhelming (50 science really is nothing), but at least that one provides a free mosque (which interestingly enough makes the mosque belief pretty terrible )

It does scale per era, I think its fine as is. Potentially reduce hammer requirement?

 

[Funak]

I really feel the main issue is the faith that is crazy powerful, the culture us pretty powerful also. You are generally getting massive GPT and science by the time this becomes relevant.

It does scale per era, I think its fine as is. Potentially reduce hammer requirement?

I usually reform my religion around the time I reach the university of sankore, so on one side 100 science x era is not that much, and on the other side 50 science x era is fine?

 

[max_gradient]

Awesome work as always, thank you soo much!

I cant keep up with finishing my games to match your release frequency