New Beta Version - June 22nd (6/22)

[balinte]

It might be a bit random here (i dont know if theres a wonder thread) but the free reserch lab on the Bletchley park surely seems useless to me
I cant imagine going to rationalism and skipping the research lab for so long in a city which has the production to build a wonder.

So..
For example a police station instead could really make me prioritaze the tech/wonder more as the other agent building requies it

This may be too obvious?

 

[Owlbebach]

It might be a bit random here (i dont know if theres a wonder thread) but the free reserch lab on the Bletchley park surely seems useless to me
I cant imagine going to rationalism and skipping the research lab for so long in a city which has the production to build a wonder.

So..
For example a police station instead could really make me prioritaze the tech/wonder more as the other agent building requies it

This may be too obvious?

I think Bletchey Park is a bit controversial to Rationalism. Research lab is quite useless that late. Additional spies are useless too, cause hey, you have Rationalism, you should be ahead in tech by that time, otherwise it is probably time to start a new game. 15% enemy spies reduction is nice but bulding a wonder for that? I'd rather put level3 spy in my capital and relax.

I mean the wonder itself is good, but not for Rationalism. On the other hand rationalism is so strong now that adding science-focused wonder to it seems to be too much

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I think Bletchey Park is a bit controversial to Rationalism. Research lab is quite useless that late. Additional spies are useless too, cause hey, you have Rationalism, you should be ahead in tech by that time, otherwise it is probably time to start a new game. 15% enemy spies reduction is nice but bulding a wonder for that? I'd rather put level3 spy in my capital and relax.

I mean the wonder itself is good, but not for Rationalism. On the other hand rationalism is so strong now that adding science-focused wonder to it seems to be too much

Spies isn't meaningless even if you're ahead in tech because they can counter enemies' spies.

 

[CrazyG]

Bletchley park can be useful for a diplomatic win, because it gives you more spies to try and coup city states and establish diplomats. By this stage I have enough spies for any other strategy type. Either way I find its cost really hard to justify

 

[Barak]

Spies isn't meaningless even if you're ahead in tech because they can counter enemies' spies.

I've noticed that my spies in my own cities don't seem to catch anyone or deter anyone. Even as level 3 spies.

 

[Txurce]

I've noticed that my spies in my own cities don't seem to catch anyone or deter anyone. Even as level 3 spies.

Mine do. Aside from constabularies and police stations, which help them do a better job, a lot depends on the snowball effect of their first encounter. Usually it's rookie spy vs rookie spy. Whoever succeeds gets promoted... and the snowball starts to roll, in one direction or the other.

 

[vyyt]

Aside from constabularies and police stations, which help them do a better job.

Are you sure about this? I thought the buildings only slowed the enemy spies a bit - at least that's how it worked in vanilla. I usually turn the Espionage off.

 

[Txurce]

Are you sure about this? I thought the buildings only slowed the enemy spies a bit - at least that's how it worked in vanilla. I usually turn the Espionage off.

I don't know the difference between "slowed the enemy spies a bit," and "help (your spy) do a better job." It seems like a pretty hefty % -- check the wiki and see if you agree. But I am more sure about the randomness and influence of that first encounter of Spy Vs Spy. That was my main point.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Even when I play with "no bad events", I seem to get a few bad events in the game. Not sure if that's intended or not.

 

[Enginseer]

Even when I play with "no bad events", I seem to get a few bad events in the game. Not sure if that's intended or not.

Depends on which events you'll been having. The "Heat Wave" event isn't considered bad, but rather neutral by Gazebo. So when you disable Bad Events, you allow other events to pop up instead more often rather than those bad and good events.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Enginseer, thanks for the explanation!

 

[vyyt]

I don't know the difference between "slowed the enemy spies a bit," and "help (your spy) do a better job."

I think we misunderstood each other. What I meant was that the buildings themselves slow down the enemy spies, but they do not increase the chance of your counter-spies to catch the enemy spies. Checking the Wiki, it seems it is correct.

 

[Txurce]

I like the idea of no bonuses for being first to an ideology, but am worried about anarchy growing from 2 to 5 turns. In a game where civs are already lemming-like in following the ideology leaders, this nerf is enough to make bucking the tide a really bad idea. The reason this is all happening, of course, is because following the "wrong" ideology cripples happiness. It makes me wonder, proposed nerf aside, if the happiness penalties that come from ideologies are too strong. There's zero doubt that the game would be more interesting if all three ideologies were followed roughly equally in most games, and I think the focus should be on how to achieve that, instead of further penalizing the "wrong" choice.

 

[tu_79]

I like the idea of no bonuses for being first to an ideology, but am worried about anarchy growing from 2 to 5 turns. In a game where civs are already lemming-like in following the ideology leaders, this nerf is enough to make bucking the tide a really bad idea. The reason this is all happening, of course, is because following the "wrong" ideology cripples happiness. It makes me wonder, proposed nerf aside, if the happiness penalties that come from ideologies are too strong. There's zero doubt that the game would be more interesting if all three ideologies were followed roughly equally in most games, and I think the focus should be on how to achieve that, instead of further penalizing the "wrong" choice.

Not if you get something extra for picking the least followed ideology. Not in current state.

 

[Txurce]

Not if you get something extra for picking the least followed ideology. Not in current state.

EDIT: This thread also incorporates the proposed changelog -- not the current state.

 

[vyyt]

There's zero doubt that the game would be more interesting if all three ideologies were followed roughly equally in most games

I strongly agree with this. My main gripe with the current ideology era is that everyone follows the same ideology in the end, which is not fun.

 

[balinte]

I strongly agree with this. My main gripe with the current ideology era is that everyone follows the same ideology in the end, which is not fun.

Yeah my games also follow that "mostly same ideology" trait even in the current state of game
So nerfing further the differring ideologys obviously wont do help to its the variegation

At least there is a tourism penalty but that will hardly justify the unhappiness plus diplo penalty without the extra policy

 

[tu_79]

I said this before : give free tenets when the ideology is vacant. First one may receive one free tenet in whatever ideology. The second one might get none if he follows the same, or one free tenet if he chooses a different ideology. If the two first civs get the same ideology, then the third one might get two free tenets if he chooses differently.
So, it kind of encourages picking the least followed ideology, and makes it be balanced with the benefits of just following.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Or maybe some different sort of encouragement? Policies are a bit strong to be giving out like that, maybe instant free national wonder of the ideology in the capital if you pick it first? Everyone gets them sooner or later, but you'd get it earlier.

 

[Txurce]

I said this before : give free tenets when the ideology is vacant. First one may receive one free tenet in whatever ideology. The second one might get none if he follows the same, or one free tenet if he chooses a different ideology. If the two first civs get the same ideology, then the third one might get two free tenets if he chooses differently.
So, it kind of encourages picking the least followed ideology, and makes it be balanced with the benefits of just following.

You're suggesting the status quo, more or less, which does nothing to prevent a mad rush for one ideology or another, once the first-in bonuses are gone. And the rush is because of the large unhappiness penalties if you choose differently from the culture leader. (There's also the rich-getting-richer issue.)