New Beta Version - June 9th (6/9)

[obnosis]

testing with england and great lighthouse. 2 dromons can make short work of any city by moving in and out of the range without ever getting hit.
so i think that nails it for england even through range 2 city attack. you cannot defend the city tho and need to bring in land units, but i think that's the idea.

 

[Gazebo]

I will also throw in some concern on the navy.

We have been here before, a few times actually. The last time I remember was when dromons rcs was heavily debated.

And we came to a conclusion that I think has been forgotten. Civ combat is about taking cities. It always has been. Yes killing a trade route is nice once in a while...but that is always secondary.

My early game hammers are very precious. And if I'm building a military unit, it's got to be useful.

And we saw this exact same thing happen to the dromon before, we weakened its attack and it dropped to obscurity...because I'm not building specialized units that don't provide strong bang for the buck.

Range 1 severely limits the use of navy units. I understand all of the arguments why the change was made...but I have history (and I mean forum history) on my side. We have been down this road, and we have always come back. Navies must be strong or they will not be used.

If navy v navy combat needs a look than we can brainstorm more direct fixes. But nerfing navies afffect on land is not the answer

I really, really think people need to play with the naval changes before making such definitive remarks. Very few of my decisions come without due consideration. The recent changes to fog of war have changed naval warfare quite a bit.

G

 

[ElliotS]

I really, really think people need to play with the naval changes before making such definitive remarks. Very few of my decisions come without due consideration. The recent changes to fog of war have changed naval warfare quite a bit.

G

I'm testing it now. Finally got a start that I can play. Here's a screenshot of the start before this one, that sums up my luck:

 

[ElliotS]

I am LOVING the starting with scouts change. The AI getting 2-3 scouts on deity made starts not on a forest near unplayable. Ruins are a zero sum game, and giving your neighbors all of them is a huge disadvantage. Being on epic compounded the problem.

My only complaints:
First off can you please double check that the AI is getting pathfinders and not scouts. I swear to god literally every game I see 1-3 AI scouts very early.
Second: Can pathfinders not get maps? Getting maps is actually bad for them, because it deprives them of experience. It's a pretty big swing and add more RNG to goody-huts.
Third: How much more likely is culture? In my experience I get gold or culture at least half the time, and maps a fourth. Is that personal bias, bad luck or actually programmed in?

Also is it possible to make the barbarians unable to embark stolen workers? It would be one thing if you could recapture them with a boat, but once embarked they're basically lost and it can be a really big deal in multiplayer. (Especially because we play on Deity and the Barbarians will often have Embarking before us. Or any tech really, it's quite silly that they're average instead of last in tech given that they're barbarians.)

 

[Gokudo01]

lol dat start

 

[Txurce]

The wonder is nice, not great, sea trade routes can't reach far, they are less safe because barbarian can spawn boat from a random island and now dromon is less powerful.

I don't think many people beeline or even prioritise this tech and now it's worse because there is NO unit on this side of the tech tree and naval units have got a harder time to defend your territory against land invasion

In any difficulties, after prince, you will have to defend yourself in early war. Without any "powerful" units on the top side, how the top side is balanced vs the bottom side because you will HAVE to defend yourself, it's not a choice it's a fact.

I decided to play Venice, and try exactly what you say is unworkable. My adjacent neighbors were England and France. I beelined the GL, which I value pretty highly. And by trading with them, I avoided war. In the meantime, I annexed two conveniently adjacent CS.

With all said above give me a single example where i choose researching sailing and building ships vs striking 40(!!) turns earlier with horseman and archers? And as i said - you do not need navy to defend against navy anymore, just think of placing cities carefully.

My plan was to try just this: a more trireme-heavy rush against nearby cities. Unfortunately, the French were inland nearby, and the English expanded so fast that they would have overwhelmed me at sea, let alone on land. So I waited, saving all my gold for corvettes and frigates (which wouldn't require the iron I didn't have).

Range 1 severely limits the use of navy units. I understand all of the arguments why the change was made...but I have history (and I mean forum history) on my side. We have been down this road, and we have always come back. Navies must be strong or they will not be used.

Because I beat England to Navigation, I blitzed an island they built in my bay, and their adjacent, EIGHT IRON city. They were mine in two turns. After that, I easily ground down their counterattack. Range 1 was not a problem at all, because of the move-and-shoot adjustment... and as Gazebo foresaw, it made naval battle exponentially more interesting.

Stressing that point: no VP player relies on a navy more than me -- and I am loving this change.

I realize dromons will no longer be terrors. But they shouldn't be... and I know I'll be able to take some cities with four of them. I also know that more heavily defended cities won't be able to be blitzed navally, but they will fall. Also, I am now building a blend of city- and vessel-attack melee and ranged ships, which again is more interesting. I have no idea if the CS will require minor adjustments, or if the coal vs iron split will be more problematic than iron was before. But the basic approach is a Great Leap Forward for me.

 

[Gokudo01]

txurce, you know venice is an edge case; you can't give it to me as a counter example; you don't expand you don't have border friction, you don't compete for good city spot.

But I heed your point. Let's roll

 

[FoxOfWar]

Giving this all a test on a Tiny Islands map(Marathon, Huge), intending to go conquering. Random leader gave me Montezuma, we'll see how he does when I can not Jaguar-roll nearest neighbour.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Haven't played a game of Civ in a while, but this update seems intriguing... count me in.

Edit: Oh boy, found a biggie. If you play without espionage enabled, Siam can't build their wats, since I guess the whole constabulary line of buildings is removed from the game. Might wanna make an exception for them somehow. And if someone can give me a quick fix to salvage my game, I'd appreciate it... Gonna call it here for now.

 

[Cerest]

The AI loves building Academies and other GP improvements on luxury resources like Marble Too bad they don't improve those resources.

I noticed at the game also recommends me to build these improvements over the luxury goods in my own lands. I'm assuming this is a bug?

 

[CrazyG]

The AI loves building Academies and other GP improvements on luxury resources like Marble Too bad they don't improve those resources.

I noticed at the game also recommends me to build these improvements over the luxury goods in my own lands. I'm assuming this is a bug?

Not a bug. Its actually a good idea. If you plant an academy on marble you get all the benefits of connecting marble, just like if it was a quarry there instead. Applies to all luxury and strategic resources

 

[Legen]

The AI loves building Academies and other GP improvements on luxury resources like Marble Too bad they don't improve those resources.

I noticed at the game also recommends me to build these improvements over the luxury goods in my own lands. I'm assuming this is a bug?

The resources should also count as improved (luxuries and strategic resources) once you research the appropriate technology. So, if you build a GP improvement over a luxury that requires a plantation (enabled by Calendar), you should start receiving that luxury once you research Calendar.

 

[Cerest]

Not a bug. Its actually a good idea. If you plant an academy on marble you get all the benefits of connecting marble, just like if it was a quarry there instead. Applies to all luxury and strategic resources

The resources should also count as improved (luxuries and strategic resources) once you research the appropriate technology. So, if you build a GP improvement over a luxury that requires a plantation (enabled by Calendar), you should start receiving that luxury once you research Calendar.

The civopedia just displays it improving strategic resources (not luxuries) >_> can there be an update the entry then please?

 

[Legen]

The civopedia just displays it improving strategic resources (not luxuries) >_> can there be an update the entry then please?

You're free to change there, though, if you want, just tell us which pages need to be changed.

Starting pathfinder is not so good as I think. Cause in my current game I was not able to build even shrine or monument, 2 barbs camps from start near me... and pathfinder can def as warrior(

Japan AI is really crazy. Always top. Does Japan get bonus from their UA on Deity (I mean for free exp for units)? Cause in last game, that I will restart now - Japan has 13 techs(and they start to build Colossus), next AI players 8 techs(me almost 7). And my top tech is Calendar.
Ancient ruins are off, so no random bonuses to players.
And Japans culture is amazing - 5 policies(2200 culture), when all others has 3-4 policies(next top culture is 1300). They has boats pantheon, nothing special for that culture.
Time to start as Celts and forgot about this

I would guess it's because the AI starts with 2 free levels on Diety, and gets a bonus to XP. That could mean that japan instantly gets science nad culture for every unit they overproduce, and quickly gets tons more.

To be sure, is AIFreeXPPercent a bonus to how much XP AI units gain from Barracks and similar stuff (Orders, Elite Forces, Branderburg Gate...)? And AITrainPercent is a reduction to how much XP the units need to level up?

Because if so, Immortal and Deity AI Japan units can start with 3 levels once the city has a Barracks, meaning free 25 and 25 whenever it creates a unit (whose cost is reduced by 20%/30% with AIUnitCostPercent). All that the AI would need to do is beeline Military Theory, build Barracks and spam low-cost units (and disband if at supply cap). Either way, the UA works really well with the AI bonuses in the early game, in ways the player can't hope to achieve.

 

[Txurce]

Having finished my first game with the latest patch, my very positive opinion of it hasn't changed. I'll add that move-and-shoot tends to favor the human. And that battleships have range 2 in an undocumented change which makes little sense in the era of artillery and guided missiles.

On a separate note that someone else wrote about recently, my game-long allies the Inca declared war on me because they nuked an enemy and the spillover hit my territory. Basically, this cost me the game. Can anything be done to give the human player a choice here?

 

[Gazebo]

Having finished my first game with the latest patch, my very positive opinion of it hasn't changed. I'll add that move-and-shoot tends to favor the human. And that battleships have range 2 in an undocumented change which makes little sense in the era of artillery and guided missiles.

On a separate note that someone else wrote about recently, my game-long allies the Inca declared war on me because they nuked an enemy and the spillover hit my territory. Basically, this cost me the game. Can anything be done to give the human player a choice here?

All ranged ships were reduced in range, thus the battleship is 2.

DOW on damage is an automatic thing (as you can't damage a unit you aren't at war with). Thus the DOW.

I'm also curious for feedback on the new culture-from-trade-routes element. As an aside, I'm considering a buff to Progress tying into this mechanic (i.e. Progress Trade Routes to civs with more policies will generate 100% more culture). This will help Progress stay relevant early on and 'leech' culture from tradition and authority civs.

G

 

[lordrune]

Not a bug. Its actually a good idea. If you plant an academy on marble you get all the benefits of connecting marble, just like if it was a quarry there instead. Applies to all luxury and strategic resources

I don't like doing it myself because you lose the extra bonus you get for that particular improvement being on it's associated resource. You get the resource connected, sure, if tech level is there, but there is an extra opportunity cost, while if you put the GP on an assumed regular tile, there's no opportunity cost, you wouldn't have got anything extra from an improvement. It bothers me mostly because I'm a bit OCD, and it's probably efficient enough for the AI as you do get powerful tiles, just a slightly decreased total potential yield.

 

[kawyua]

The culture from trade routes feels great... As an addition to both science and gold, its really helping base needs. I haven't used it to its full extent currently with Japan, but now I feel convinced I should try someone without some base culture. I've been keeping up with everyone so well that I'm a bit frustrated at Japan's little boosts - I don't need it with trade routes now!

Its hard to say its powerful, but that rubberbanding potential is quite amazing as it is.

Is this normal btw? Poland getting Freedom 3 policies at t169. I'm scared for my life. He isn't going to get a fast tourism victory just because I am Japan. I've only got 12 policies...

Standard deity shenanigans I guess.

I wish I was his neighbor, though! Ah that policy difference must make trade routes so good.

I'm not sure about the 100% bonus to culture from trade routes in progress though. It might be borderline as a rubberbanding mechanic. If I see that policy, I'm quite curious how much of a boost I can expect from stacking great writers later. Although, if this is a replacement for the culture from researching tech, it would kind of hurt.

 

[ElliotS]

The culture from trade routes feels great... As an addition to both science and gold, its really helping base needs. I haven't used it to its full extent currently with Japan, but now I feel convinced I should try someone without some base culture. I've been keeping up with everyone so well that I'm a bit frustrated at Japan's little boosts - I don't need it with trade routes now!

Its hard to say its powerful, but that rubberbanding potential is quite amazing as it is.

Is this normal btw? Poland getting Freedom 3 policies at t169. I'm scared for my life. He isn't going to get a fast tourism victory just because I am Japan. I've only got 12 policies...
View attachment 473067
Standard deity shenanigans I guess.

I wish I was his neighbor, though! Ah that policy difference must make trade routes so good.

I'm not sure about the 100% bonus to culture from trade routes in progress though. It might be borderline as a rubberbanding mechanic. If I see that policy, I'm quite curious how much of a boost I can expect from stacking great writers later. Although, if this is a replacement for the culture from researching tech, it would kind of hurt.

Remember that entering Industrial gives him a free policy, and then add in early adopted bonuses and that's all three policies.

I'm also curious for feedback on the new culture-from-trade-routes element. As an aside, I'm considering a buff to Progress tying into this mechanic (i.e. Progress Trade Routes to civs with more policies will generate 100% more culture). This will help Progress stay relevant early on and 'leech' culture from tradition and authority civs.

I'm liking it so far. I think it was needed.

DOW on damage is an automatic thing (as you can't damage a unit you aren't at war with). Thus the DOW.

Then I'd suggest making the AI never nuke if it would cause a DoW. Sure it's a little exploitable, but honestly it's better than the alternative game-ruining stuff.

Probably. It's never happened to me.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't like doing it myself because you lose the extra bonus you get for that particular improvement being on it's associated resource. You get the resource connected, sure, if tech level is there, but there is an extra opportunity cost, while if you put the GP on an assumed regular tile, there's no opportunity cost, you wouldn't have got anything extra from an improvement. It bothers me mostly because I'm a bit OCD, and it's probably efficient enough for the AI as you do get powerful tiles, just a slightly decreased total potential yield.

Most of the time, its an increased potential yield to plant on resources. Obviously certain pantheons or other stuff can change this, but generally speaking, marble has the lowest opportunity cost to plant on. Reason being the marble quarry is only worth 1 gold, and almost any other improvement is worth more than that. If you work an academy on marble + a farm on empty grassland, you will generally get a better result than a quarry on marble + academy on grassland. Especially when factoring things like farm adjacency, cathedrals, or the possibility you alternate what tiles you work.

Planting on a resource helps guarantee you always get the extra yield for that resource. You always want to work the great person tile, so the cattle's extra point of production always get used. If you plant on empty land, you might find yourself not working that cattle later, losing the yield. Also, stables and stoneworks buff resources themselves, not the pasture/quarry. Generally bison, cattle, horses, stone, and sheep are the best tiles to plant on.

Of course if its an OCD or roleplaying thing, by all means plant where you want. It certainly does seem silly to think about having 4 scientific academies all built on the land cows graze. But if trying to succeed on a higher difficulty, things like this can be important