New Beta Version - June 9th (6/9)

[cammcken]

Also, small question, a blockade is just blocking all adjacent sea tiles, or completely surrounding the city with units. Because I'm not getting blockades in the first case.

I believe, for purposes of city combat modifiers, a blockade involves occupying all adjacent land tiles and blocking all adjacent sea tiles (which can be achieved without having a naval unit on every tile). (Mountains count as blocked tiles; I can confirm.)

For purposes of "City connection" across sea, a blockade is only blocking sea tiles. (I'm 90% sure a is retained if a land road can still be connected.)

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I really, really want to keep most ships at 1-2 range. 3+ range on ships trivializes combat, especially with the FOW changes.

G

If you say so. But they are at 2 range even with Range promotion in current patch except battleship, right?
And G, Japan always dominates the world at Deity difficulty. Plz fix this.

 

[intelli]

Getting a weird error where fog of war isn't revealed on tile purchase until the next turn.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Getting a weird error where fog of war isn't revealed on tile purchase until the next turn.

That happens quite frequently to me, too. I thought it was only for me.

 

[bigcat88]

And G, Japan always dominates the world at Deity difficulty. Plz fix this.

I believe that we will see fix in next version )

 

[Grabbl]

Couldn't the balance here be tweaked with CS/RCS adjustments fairly simply, or is there something else i'm not thinking of? I don't really understand what you mean lore-wise... historically there was little difference in the way dromons and triremes engaged that would imply that one should be stuck next to its adversary for ~20 years at a time while the other should be able to sail off. We don't make horseman get stuck after they attack, right? Both them and horsearchers can move and attack last i checked. Isn't that the same distinction? I acknowledge though that it would a drastic change from what we're used to.. and maybe game-breaking in its ability to focus attacks. That was my thinking in buffing the ability to actively counter them from cities & shore, but maybe some other mitigating change would be needed.



I only vaguely remember this, to be honest. Am I missing something, or would the same effect now be applied as "First to cruisers wins"?

You're right for the historical aspect, my argument doesn't really make sense in a game where you need 20years in ancient era to travel to your borders or engage in combat

For the cruisers vs. Frigates point, the transition to cruisers is less severe because former ships already can move (and stay) on ocean tiles, that already adds a good amount of manoeuvre space and tiles to attack (other ships, not cities) from. I think it is healthy (balance-wise) to have the ocean upgrade not on the same unit as the range upgrade.

 

[Edaka]

When you say 1 turn of culture/science/gold, is it 1 city turn, or 1 empire turn ?
Because if it is 1 empire turn, then it correspond to multiple city turns, so it should be normal that prod and food are about 3 turns.

The thing is that city and empire turns are equal when you only have one city, the capital, in the early game.

It is based on local production, but I'll check it to make sure there's not a math error.

Thanks!

 

[Tekamthi]

For the cruisers vs. Frigates point, the transition to cruisers is less severe because former ships already can move (and stay) on ocean tiles, that already adds a good amount of manoeuvre space and tiles to attack (other ships, not cities) from. I think it is healthy (balance-wise) to have the ocean upgrade not on the same unit as the range upgrade.

Gotcha, hadn't thought of that necessarily. I just find the disconnect between land/naval in later years especially too jarring. Re: frigates... these ships that supposedly have cannons on them, built off the same tech, can only fire half as far as their counterparts on land? Same w/ battleships & artillerly. I don't get it. I mean I understand the gameplay reasons I guess, and this distinction does make sense to me in ancient/classical, but ultimately starts to break the civ historical connection a little too much for my liking. Same kind of concern re: attack and move for slow boats but not fast boats imo.

All that said, I'm still really enjoying the playthrough on the latest beta, and I've intentionally made heavy use of naval to see how it fits. Obviously I'd pref changes in the direction of what i've outlined previous, but def wouldn't want current beta to be reverted by any means.

 

[ElliotS]

Gotcha, hadn't thought of that necessarily. I just find the disconnect between land/naval in later years especially too jarring. Re: frigates... these ships that supposedly have cannons on them, built off the same tech, can only fire half as far as their counterparts on land? Same w/ battleships & artillerly. I don't get it. I mean I understand the gameplay reasons I guess, and this distinction does make sense to me in ancient/classical, but ultimately starts to break the civ historical connection a little too much for my liking. Same kind of concern re: attack and move for slow boats but not fast boats imo.

All that said, I'm still really enjoying the playthrough on the latest beta, and I've intentionally made heavy use of naval to see how it fits. Obviously I'd pref changes in the direction of what i've outlined previous, but def wouldn't want current beta to be reverted by any means.

Cannons on a boat can't be aimed the same as land, and since boats sway it reduces their effective range. What's going to allow you to hit a target further away: Standing still on solid ground or constant movement on a turbulent sea?

 

[Txurce]

Cannons on a boat can't be aimed the same as land, and since boats sway it reduces their effective range. What's going to allow you to hit a target further away: Standing still on solid ground or constant movement on a turbulent sea?

Does this apply to battleships?

 

[Beniito]

Does this apply to battleships?

I believe battleships can indeed move their cannons, however most of the time not in a full 360 degree turn.
these days warships just carry missiles!

 

[Gazebo]

Does this apply to battleships?

Boats still sway, if that's what you're asking.

G

 

[Misaka]

My opinion of the naval changes, now its more easy to destroy city with ships, before depending where you found a city but some city only can atack with 2 or 3 ships other we can atack with 6 or more ships this scenario its before, now we can atack and then move after, in all scenario more movility has the ship more ship can atack a city, depend little of the terrain-ocean, a exaple, with great ligthouse and playing england, your dropmon have 5 movility, a city only with one costal access, you can atack more than 7-8 ships, with more mobility more ships can atack. its more easily to take out a land unit if its in coastal to, but now if you wanna control and conquest, need more land trops than before, i like the idea because before somes civs and maps, with only 90% naval practicaly can conquest all map xD, and i think now its more important the treasury fleet or great ligthouse, because movility now not only add how fast you can get position of your navy now add and affect the count of navvy can atack some place, My english isn't good i know xD

 

[Tekamthi]

Boats still sway, if that's what you're asking.

G

Have you guys ever explored the idea of a -RCS penalty at range 2 & 3? Would such a penalty be possible (ie point blank does more damage). I take the point made about effective range, but wonder if there might be a better way to represent it than just cutting range on frig & battleship....

 

[Txurce]

Have you guys ever explored the idea of a -RCS penalty at range 2 & 3? Would such a penalty be possible (ie point blank does more damage). I take the point made about effective range, but wonder if there might be a better way to represent it than just cutting range on frig & battleship....

No need to concede the point about effective range -- battleships can hit a target at 20 miles. But from a gameplay perspective, ranged ships shoot-and-move function makes the extra range not necessary and, as Gazebo points out, the game is more interesting this way.

 

[Txurce]

I just started a game where my scout moved away 4 spaces, and two barbs attacked my capital. That pretty much screwed up my game. Yes, it would have helped to have a warrior, but not enough. I'm not the first person to say that it's no fun to be swarmed when you can do NOTHING about it. And I don't recall anyone being in favor of it. Given this, what's the rationale for having immediate swarms descending on capitals?

Edit: by turn 19, there were five barbs attacking my capital.

 

[Tekamthi]

No need to concede the point about effective range -- battleships can hit a target at 20 miles. But from a gameplay perspective, ranged ships shoot-and-move function makes the extra range not necessary and, as Gazebo points out, the game is more interesting this way.

I think its a valid point for age of sail... though it wasn't so much range maybe as accuracy that was affected I think by waves and swells etc... and I don't think the effective range was necessarily halved as our beta frigates imply.

Anyway I'm not yet convinced that attack and move was not the more important change that needed to happen to make naval more interesting, and the range reduction secondary. Def don't want any rollbacks, but hoping we keep beta'ing further naval changes to build on the good here.

I'd be curious to know if a range 2 and 3 RCS penalty are possible? Could this maybe be a compromise... even heavy penalties, say 50% at 2 and 75% at 3?

 

[Txurce]

...Anyway I'm not yet convinced that attack and move was not the more important change that needed to happen to make naval more interesting, and the range reduction secondary. Def don't want any rollbacks, but hoping we keep beta'ing further naval changes to build on the good here.

I'd be curious to know if a range 2 and 3 RCS penalty are possible? Could this maybe be a compromise... even heavy penalties, say 50% at 2 and 75% at 3?

The penalties are possible -- they already existed with the prior promos, but I agree that that shoot-and-move more than makes up for it. Naval warfare is at its best right now.

 

[cammcken]

Getting a weird error where fog of war isn't revealed on tile purchase until the next turn.

Ohhh yeah, I've seen this. Heck, I've had random fog of war on:

• tiles in my territory (not just recently purchased, which, btw, should be revealed before purchasing because they're adjacent..)
• tiles occupied by my units

I've also had some random patches of visibility I couldn't understand, with this and previous updates. I think they're related to mountains, but honestly I don't know. I'm talking about a 3-5 tile patch, not in any convenient hexagon shape, on another subcontinent.

 

[CrazyG]

Anyone else seeing AI going tradition really often? My current game has 1 progress, 0 authority and 6 tradition.

Also Siam is beating the entire world at literally everything. Turn 100 he has 59 population in just 5 cites, has 6 social policies while all others have 4 or 5, and is at 20 technologies. I'm Korea on an Amber monopoly and only have 16. Seems like too much to me