New Beta Version - March 14th (3/14)

[Gazebo]

Hey all,

New beta inbound. Mainly bugfixes (thanks for helping debug the reworked instant yield system. I assume you all are happy with the new unified notification model? I didn't hear any complaints...

Anyways, here's the changelist:

Bugs and Enhancements:

• Fixed reported bugs related to instant yield effects and religious oddities
• Updated to EUI 1.28f (or whatever is the latest) - needs thorough testing
  
  Note: firetuner users, latest EUI breaks the firetuner (not kidding)​
• Fixed policy bug not triggering properly due to dummy policies goofing the function
• Ilteroi worked on the randomization back-end (may improve MP performance), fixed a few caching issues, and worked on homeland and tactical AI maneuvers some more
• I worked on the Deal AI/Lua a bit, and on the military strategy/unit production/flavor AI
• Integrated a few more C4DF bugfixes from Putmalk (moving out of beta towards an official release, according to Putmalk)

Balance:

• Bumped manufactory base value to 5 (was 4)
• Caravan moved to Horseback Riding
• Pottery Trade Route moved to Optics
• Stonehenge moved to Pottery
• Moved Venice UA merchant to Trade (was Sailing)
• Increased Wonder production cost increase (based on owned wonders) by 5%
  
  Is now - same Era: 25%, previous Era: 15%, earlier era: 10%​
• Paper Maker returns for China, replacement for Library, scaling science from pop (1 flat science instead of flat 2 science) - 1 science per 4 citizens in city - also grants a point of culture
• Indonesian UA now triggers on conquest as well as founding (the spice must flow)

Bath/Garden/Candi logic reconsidered.

• Garden no longer limited by fresh/no fresh water - can be built anywhere
  
  Garden bonuses remain as-is (including resources), but GPP now 25% (was 20%)​
• Free Garden returns to Hanging Gardens
• Candi revised - now grants 20% culture and faith in the City during WLTKD (loses faith to science conversion), also gains +2 culture
  
• Bath now only buildable on rivers, different purpose entirely
  
  Boosts the culture and gold output of gardens, amphitheaters, and temples by 1 in the City
  +10% Culture in the City during Golden Ages​

Not savegame compatible. Sorry!

New version online as of 1:45am EST.

Users, make sure to download and install the latest EUI from EUI's downloads page (if you use the auto-installer, install EUI after you use the auto-installer, otherwise the new version of EUI will be overwritten!)

Beta Downloads Folder

Cheers,
Gazebo

 

[Enginseer]

Moved Venice UA merchant to Trade (was Sailing)

Deus vult, Venice, Deus vult.
May your conquest be ever-lasting.
Part ways with traditions
And progress of others.
Your authority will outmatch all.
No more will you serve those
In neither piety nor patronage.
For later industry will take in
Your empire in for the new Order.

 

[supracseduch]

Pottery would still be good even if Stonehenge weren't there.
Are Caravans really so good that the first Trade Route has to be unlocked separately?
The change to Baths is good. Can they built next to lakes though?

 

[TruthfulCake]

There seems to have been quite a lot of shuffling in the Ancient Era techs lately. Is there a reason why Stonehenge was moved to Pottery other than to fill the hole left by moving the trade route out to Optics? It doesn't seem to make sense to me compared to its placement at the Wheel.

The rest of the changes seem good. Have some questions about the Paper Maker, where we seem to return to the pop -> science model a little too quickly. If it is possible to make the building provide +1 paper instead of the science and culture bonus (because it's the paper maker, duh) it would probably reflect China's attribute as a diplomatic power without making food too powerful for China. But in the meanwhile I'd like to test the 1 science per 4 pop feature.

The baths being a river-exclusive buff for gardens and temples is an ingenious idea that solves the baths/garden problem last patch. And welcome back, Hanging Baths Gardens!

 

[saamohod]

Is it just me who is missing the city icon on map in the new beta?
Playing with EUI.

 

[Crisp]

Is it just me who is missing the city icon on map in the new beta?
Playing with EUI.

Have the exact same issue.

 

[Funak]

Balance:
Bumped manufactory base value to 5 (was 4)

I can get behind this.

Caravan moved to Horseback Riding
Pottery Trade Route moved to Optics

I can see the reason why this is done, but I don't see why the caravan was moved to horseback riding rather than Trade, it feels sorta weird.

Stonehenge moved to Pottery

Logic behind this, if I may ask? Other than the obvious part about Pottery losing half it's unlocks.

Moved Venice UA merchant to Trade (was Sailing)

Fine.

Increased Wonder production cost increase (based on owned wonders) by 5%
Is now - same Era: 25%, previous Era: 15%, earlier era: 10%

Fine.

Paper Maker returns for China, replacement for Library, scaling science from pop (1 flat science instead of flat 2 science) - 1 science per 4 citizens in city - also grants a point of culture

Sounds kinda weird, but I'll judge it after I've seen it ingame.

Indonesian UA now triggers on conquest as well as founding (the spice must flow)

The spice must flow.

Bath/Garden/Candi logic reconsidered.
Garden no longer limited by fresh/no fresh water - can be built anywhere
Garden bonuses remain as-is (including resources), but GPP now 25% (was 20%)
Free Garden returns to Hanging Gardens

That's one way of doing it.

Candi revised - now grants 20% culture and faith in the City during WLTKD (loses faith to science conversion), also gains +2 culture

Looks good.

Bath now only buildable on rivers, different purpose entirely
Boosts the culture and gold output of gardens, amphitheaters, and temples by 1 in the City
+10% Culture in the City during Golden Ages

Sounds kinda weird, but I guess that's fine.

 

[Tomice]

As always, thank you very much for efforts!
If I may suggest something:
It would make sense to create a new full version in the next days after some bug hunting.
This version seems way less controversial than the current official one and is closer to vanilla, therefore better suited for newcomers and conservative mod users.

Caravan moved to Horseback Riding
Pottery Trade Route moved to Optics

Why are using these outdated names for the techs, G?
Horseback riding and optics don't exist any more as techs in my version????

Should probably mean: Caravan was moved to Trade, Trade route to Sailing

Logic behind this, if I may ask? Other than the obvious part about Pottery losing half it's unlocks.

Wheel was the most likely first tech to take (lots of unlocks with immediate usefulness, in the middle of the tech tree leading to many key techs), so it could use a nerf.

Stonehenge on the same tech as council lead to weird considerations (do I delay my first Council and wait until Stonehenge unlocks? or do I build it first and lose some of the Wonders effect?).
Could also have been solved by reducing the policy requirement of Stonehenge to 1 or by giving it another free building, but the way G did it now makes other tech paths more attractive, especially towards trade and sailing.





Gazebo, may I ask you something?
Why do you avoid triremes on fishing like the plague?
It has been suggested multiple times and would have been an easy alternative to solve the early barbarian Galley problem. Do you fear they would be used for early rushes?
I can imagine there could be a problem balancing their combat strenght (because they have to fill the melee naval role up until late medieval, making them either to strong while cities are still very vulnerable or useless later on). But I've never seen you explain the reasoning.

 

[TruthfulCake]

Wheel was the most likely first tech to take (lots of unlocks with immediate usefulness, in the middle of the tech tree leading to many key techs), so it could use a nerf.

Stonehenge on the same tech as council lead to weird considerations (do I delay my first Council and wait until Stonehenge unlocks? or do I build it first and lose some of the Wonders effect?).
Could also have been solved by reducing the policy requirement of Stonehenge to 1 or by giving it another free building, but the way G did it now makes other tech paths more attractive, especially towards trade and sailing.

Wait, really? I thought that the Wheel would be one of the later column 1 techs to take, even when Stonehenge was still there. Most of the Wheel's unlocks rely on other techs, e.g. city connections need new cities = settlers = Pottery, or Horse Archers need horses = Animal Husbandry.

The only reason to pick the Wheel first IMO is the council, which although important is not a decisive first pick. Lowering the policy requirement with Stonehenge back in the Wheel may help with the issue you are describing, although now that I have played a bit more I feel that the 2 policy requirement is actually quite justified.

The Stonehenge makes no sense to be in Pottery anyway. Moving stones from the quarry would probably have needed something close to the wheel, but was it ever theorized that the construction of Stonehenge had anything to do with pottery?

 

[Tomice]

The Stonehenge makes no sense to be in Pottery anyway. Moving stones from the quarry would probably have needed something close to the wheel, but was it ever theorized that the construction of Stonehenge had anything to do with pottery?

You're welcome trying to let all unlocks/dependencies make sense historically

Being serious again, here's what I posted in the last beta thread, I'd be glad about other people's opinion, it can only make things better:

Rushing military theory is very powerful now. You get both the council and 2 science from barracks with only three techs, plus both early mounted units. If you start in a low-forest area, this is amazing due to high likeliness to reveal horses/cattle/sheep.
Note that my original suggestion gave 1 science to both barracks and walls to split the science-boost up a bit.
I have a feeling that 1 science each from barracks, walls and forge might be best (while switching water mill and walls on the tech tree, which would boost construction).

Calendar seems like an equally powerful option. I can see some very synergistic calendar rapid expansion starts (with a lot of food boosts, settlers and food caravans).

Going towards trade first seems less appealing (except for rushing Petra). What about moving the caravan and both trade route slots to Trade? It's not like a tech featuring "only" settler and granary would be too weak.

Bronze working seems like a decent path for starts with several forests and hills. It also continues nicely into Iron Working (chop jungles, forge boosts mines).

The path towards sailing seems exaggeratedly long and stony, especially without science sources on the way. Going down the fishing path early on is risky already (may not reveal any fish). I still think 1 science from lighthouse and triremes unlocked at fishing would work well.


It think only a few small tweaks would be needed to make all starting tech paths almost equal




Side note:
We'll have to see if the free council really fits stonehenge - even when requiring only 2 policies, I have a feeling many will still want to have the council earlier.
Stonehenge in current form might be better suited for a tech that doesn't grant councils (allowing you to delay The Wheel).
The council may no longer be as important, but it's still among the most useful things to unlock early.

 

[Funak]

Anyone have a work-around for the EUI issues in this version by the way?

 

[TruthfulCake]

You're welcome trying to let all unlocks/dependencies make sense historically

Being serious again, here's what I posted in the last beta thread, I'd be glad about other people's opinion, it can only make things better:

Ah, I see. You are taking into account the techs that the Wheel unlocks as well. While I agree with your well-thought reasoning, I think that most of the benefits that you gave are not immediate - the same reason I would usually delay the Wheel anyway, because other techs provide immediate benefits by way of revealing important tile yields or by allowing settlers.

But supposing that the Wheel is a really popular tech to rush unbeknownst to me, moving Stonehenge would not make players "delay the Wheel" if the benefits of going the Wheel are that many. Or rather, it would not incentivize picking other techs over the Wheel anyway. After all, the thing that delays Stonehenge the most is the policy requirement - people are going to proceed with building shrines/granaries/settlers until somehow they get a lucky culture ruin or natural wonder to jump-start Stonehenge with.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I like most of what I see. However, I feel Stonehenge has been devalued to the point it's not worth building. Shrine faith doubling means you can frequently have your Pantheon before Stonehenge completed, devaluing the instant Faith. Free Council means I'm going to build Shrine after my Scout while Stonehenge is becoming available to build. Now I'm judging the hammer cost against the long term hotels, and it doesn't seem worth it to bump the cost on Column 2 Ancient wonders.

The spice must flow.

He who controls the spice, controls the universe!

 

[Funak]

I like most of what I see. However, I feel Stonehenge has been devalued to the point it's not worth building. Shrine faith doubling means you can frequently have your Pantheon before Stonehenge completed, devaluing the instant Faith. Free Council means I'm going to build Shrine after my Scout while Stonehenge is becoming available to build. Now I'm judging the hammer cost against the long term hotels, and it doesn't seem worth it to bump the cost on Column 2 Ancient wonders.

Maybe the Stonehenge could be given an interesting mechanic instead? I don't necessarily think the wonder is bad, but the need for social policies to build it kinda killed the point of it to me.

 

[TruthfulCake]

Indeed. Stonehenge gives you a free pantheon, but oh wait, for said free pantheon you need two social policies. It is now 100% certain that I will get a pantheon in about 25 turns (around 10 turns to build a shrine plus 15 turns to wait for 30 faith to accumulate). In no way can I research Pottery (still wish it was the Wheel), unlock two policies, and complete that wonder within 25 turns.

I guess I could justify building it if the social policy requirement is lowered to 1, since free council, +3 faith and an early GE point is still quite good, but right now it is available way too late.

 

[tu_79]

You're welcome trying to let all unlocks/dependencies make sense historically

Being serious again, here's what I posted in the last beta thread, I'd be glad about other people's opinion, it can only make things better:

I usually like the way you think. I don't feel myself proficent enough to give a better alternative.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Confirming the 'no city banners on map' thing.

Anyone have a work-around for the EUI issues in this version by the way?

I'm using the EUI city list in the upper left to keep track. And playing Venice.

 

[Sub6]

bc1's original EUI v1.28f works fine for me.

 

[hokath]

Paper Maker returns for China

But... but the delicious Tea! The high pop synergy remains but the flavour (pun intended) isn't there for me.

Everything else

Will you merge CSD and CP ever?
Do you think instant yields from CSD buildings are of the right magnitude?

These instant yield popups are a bit overwhelming. In the previous version the Chancery one isn't merged with the Council one for instance. They should be in the same popup as "a city has grown" if possible. Ignore if that's what "instant yield oddities fixed" meant.

edit: EUI city banners issue: if I change to Strategic View (to see the banners again) my city thinks it can perform a ranged attack when nothing is in range

 

[PurpleMentat]

bc1's original EUI v1.28f works fine for me.

Seems to be working for me as well. Noticed a number of files that either didn't exist or were outdated in the CBP version when I was comparing the two.