New Beta Version - March 1st (3/1)

[Putmalk]

Very soon, it's a release package issue that should be sorted out (since I have a working CP only mod) in the github.

 

[Gazebo]

This patch is actually bigger than I thought. Perhaps just as big as the change in science mechanics are the changes to units' combat strengths. Combat strengths have been reduced across the board. I haven't completely played through it yet, but I'm already seeing some potential problems:

-Warriors now have 6 strength while scouts still have 5. Warriors are even more useless now when they're nearly even in terms of strength.

-Archer RCS reduced to 5, but is still 33% more expensive than the scout or warrior.

-Chariot Archers and War Chariots cannot move after attacking, so they end up right next to their targets. They presumably turn into easy meal afterwards.

-I'm worried a bit about the balance between Trireme (10) and Dromon (15/5) as the latter can still attack land units and might be overall more useful.

-Spearmen (10) and Pikemen (15) are now even weaker relative to the units they supposedly counter: Horsemen (15), Knights (25).

-Swordsman (15) a bit stronger but Longswordsman (20) a bit weaker. The slight buff to the swordsman is very welcome, allowing it to finally be a match with the horseman. Previously, I never built swordsmen if I could just build horsemen and save the iron for siege units. It was also unlocked later, slower, and weaker.

-Where does the weaker Longswordsman fit in all this? Its only advantages against the Knight are terrain bonuses and unpenalized city attacks. With full terain advantages (Hill+Forest), it gets 27 CS, which the Knight can easily match if it gets Shock I. Besides that, any combat bonus the Knight gets is more significant thanks to its higher base CS. It's therefore incorrect to say that Longswordsmen are stronger defensively. I am positive that Knights and Knight UU's are overpowered this beta. As for the city attacks, iron is better spent on siege units.

-The Danish Berserker only has 16 CS, quite noticeably less than its non-unique counterpart.

-The drop in Greece's and Persia's power is even more noticeable now in the Medieval era. It's already bad that their Pikemen (upgraded Hoplites and Immortals) are met with Knights and Longswordsmen, so it's worse with the even lower strength ratios.

-I'm worried about the Siege Units' higher CS than regular ranged units. The latter might lose its niche.

-Helicopter Gunships are absolutely overpowered, with their ranged CS stronger than contemporary tank and infantry CS, plus their bonus against tanks, plus their superior mobility.

-Are city strengths adjusted for the lower overall unit strengths?

Let's keep a close eye on the medieval units. I was of two minds while working on that, and opted for knights to have their 'heyday' and then slowly obsolete (in terms of power) compared to melee and ranged units. If the contrast is too stark, we can dial it back.

Bugs
New
General Balance
Big Stuff
Religion
Tech Tree
Units
Buildings

Which of these sections affect the CP and which only affect the CBP?

A good rule of thumb is this: I'll never touch balance in the CP. So the CP can look to AI changes and bugfixes, and that's all. It's always been this way, and will always be this way. If I ever add something that affects CP balance, I will note it specifically.

I mean just the pantheon change alone, some of the weakest pantheons got gutted while some of the absolute strongest one went untouched, makes this really hard to actually judge.

Elaborate? The absence of specifics is not terribly useful.

G

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Thanx, a question on this: Have you tweaked any balance with regards to AI's willingness to accept a third-party request to DoW you if you have a good relationship with them. From what experience I had in 02-24 beta, AI was extremely fickle with this, I had numerous instances of AIs that were very friendly with me DoW'ing me out of the blue, most likely because of a third party bribe (albeit the missing pop-up means I can't confirm that 100 %).

PS: Why was the requirement that you needed a DoF in order to bribe someone to DoW a third party removed? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just curious.

I can absolutely confirm this, I was actually thinking to ask about this. Bribing AIs are really good and make the game more interesting - less predictable, but when my long-time ally DoWd me, while we were fighting against a common enemy... I was scratching my head (02-24 beta)

Incredible update btw, some tweaking and it'll be even more amazing. Thank you Gazebo, Putmalk, Ilteroi and others!

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Playing as The Ottoman. My first Caravan just disappeared completely. It still seems to be giving me some Gold. The second one works just fine though.

 

[kaspergm]

Oh, while I think about it, this is an issue I seem to have suffered from the last couple of betas (but haven't check 03-01 yet): When having open borders with someone, moving a unit through one of their cities seems to consume all movement, even when moving on road. Does anybody else experience this?

 

[Darth Andrew]

Will a new version of CPP release somewhat soon, or will it just be more beta versions for the foreseeable future? I'm about to finish a game, and I'd rather not start a new game if a new version is right around the corner.

 

[shaglio]

I'm in the same boat!

Also I hope that there will be a version of C4DF that only requires the CP soon!

Good news! I just got home from work and opened the Beta Download folder and there are both a CP and a CP w/C4DF file in it.

My only question now is: if I want to play the CP with the C4DF, do I need to download both the (1) file and the (1a) file or just the latter?

EDIT: Never mind. Judging by the size of the files, and the key word "Addon," I now realize I need both files.

 

[JFD]

Just an example of the ancient wonders being unlocked without the required tech or 3 social politics.

Spoiler :

After messing about, it seems that the Cultural Diversity mod together with Exploration Continued Expanded is causing the issue.

Spoiler :

Tried five times with both, and it kept happening - Celts and Byzantium.

Individual, no issue 4/5 times. One crash going into the city screen.

Hm, I'll see if I can figure this one out.
EDIT: On investigation, I can recreate the issue with only CBP+CP:

Spoiler :

 

[supracseduch]

So, the warrior is useless, but the only other unit of comparable level is also useless? Isn't that what's called balance? Or are you comparing the warrior to the scout?

Yes, I was comparing the Warrior to the Scout. There's almost no reason to build a Warrior now. 6 strength isn't that far from 5, and the Scout's abilities are too good.

Also, Archers are not much more useful than Scouts. They can easily be the same price and be equally good units. Archers are unlocked at a higher tech, so it's fair for whoever researches Trapping first to access them for the same price. (Similar to how the Granary is just as expensive as the Monument and Shrine, even though it's a bit more useful than the latter two. The fact that it's higher tech justifies the price.)

The warrior, however, simply cannot compete with those two in terms of usefulness.

They are not supposed to counter them. Spearmen and Pikemen are generic foot-soldiers without resource-costs, they aren't supposed to counter anything.

Not exactly counter, but keep them in check. The mounted melee units outclass everything else in the battlefield, and can swoop in to absolutely wreck the ranged units, so something should at least match them.

Knight(24) vs Pikeman(16+50% = 24) was balanced. Also Knights were at least as effective as Pikemen when attacking cities: 24 - 33% = 16. A few combat bonuses, and the Knight would win thanks to its higher base CS. As opposed to now: Knight(25) vs Pikeman(15+50% = 22.5). Combat bonuses only serve to widen the gap.

I guess the current Horseman(15) vs Spearman(10+50%=15) is fine, except that Warrior is in a very, very awkward spot.

And it's not like Strategic Resources are rare at all. Resource units typically comprise 80% of my army. I still find strategic resources overabundant on the map, no thanks to those spots that provide six copies.

Yeah, this actually makes very little sense to me.

I meant that the Swordsman is unlocked later (more prereq techs), and move more slowly, than the Horseman. Its required resource is also revealed later. That's why it shouldn't have a lower base CS than the horseman. Or at least it should have other strengths to compensate, apart from the generic rough terrain bonuses.

This patch have way too much going on, the science-rework by itself is enough of a change. But the questionable CS re-distribution the really weird scout-change and the lowered faith of about half the pantheons is a bit too much.

I mean just the pantheon change alone, some of the weakest pantheons got gutted while some of the absolute strongest one went untouched, makes this really hard to actually judge.

The combat strengths are "neater" now (mostly multiples of five), but not necessarily more balanced. The numbers didn't have to be that pretty to be honest.

This patch may have been too big for its own sake. It included so many different suggestions at once from different players so chaotic balance shifts are inevitable. I guess it would have been more prudent to release a full version first before the more radical changes were implemented.

 

[Gazebo]

Hm, I'll see if I can figure this one out.
EDIT: On investigation, I can recreate the issue with only CBP+CP:

Spoiler :

You unlocked enough Policies to enable the new functionality - that's working as designed. The issue is that some users are experiencing this after just one unlock. Are dummy policies coming through and causing problems?

G

 

[Gazebo]

This patch may have been too big for its own sake. It included so many different suggestions at once from different players so chaotic balance shifts are inevitable. I guess it would have been more prudent to release a full version first before the more radical changes were implemented.

Everyone keeps saying this as if something magical happens when I change the number on the 'How to Install' page and don't call it a 'beta.' Betas these days are just as stable as the more rapid 'official' releases were prior to 1.0 (for better or worse). I'm not specifically calling you out supracseduch, but simply noting that there's a common trend around here to bemoan a new beta, as if it doesn't mean as much. That's silly.

Furthermore, I'm not going to release a new official version while C4DF just issued its first beta, as C4DF is integral to the project. Putmalk needs debug time, and there are still some outstanding issues with the CP that I'm waiting on others to solve. So, in the meantime, I'm checking off boxes on my to-do list.

In short: everyone, pipe down on this, okay? Play the beta, report back, and we'll move on from here. This is a big project, with lots of gears and cogs, and I don't have control over all of them.

For the record, there were some pretty sizable issues with the unit scaling model in the second half of the game. Lots of smaller changes had been made (and units added) since my last unit balance pass, thus it was time for a pass to take place. Not to mention that the finalization of a few other features revealed some issues with the existing balance.

G

 

[JFD]

You unlocked enough Policies to enable the new functionality - that's working as designed. The issue is that some users are experiencing this after just one unlock. Are dummy policies coming through and causing problems?

G

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I think so - as soon as I loaded ExCE with CBP (no CulDiv, or others), various Wonders were available. I haven't updated ExCE for a bit, so IsDummy hasn't been set up there. I'll set up a trigger in ExCE and CID as I have in RtP to catch dummy policies from mods that probably won't be updated to support IsDummy manually.

The acronyms are for real today

 

[Gazebo]

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I think so - as soon as I loaded ExCE with CBP (no CulDiv, or others), various Wonders were available. I haven't updated ExCE for a bit, so IsDummy hasn't been set up there. I'll set up a trigger in ExCE and CID as I have in RtP to catch dummy policies from mods that probably won't be updated to support IsDummy manually.

The acronyms are for real today

That's it, then. I wasn't aware that the IsDummy wasn't setup yet. False alarm on my end, but – in the meantime – anything I can do to help?

G

 

[Iamblichos]

@LoneGazebo, Are you moving away from x yield per y population and moving toward hard yields and modifiers?

 

[Revolutionist_8]

This patch have way too much going on, the science-rework by itself is enough of a change. But the questionable CS re-distribution the really weird scout-change and the lowered faith of about half the pantheons is a bit too much.

and

This patch may have been too big for its own sake. It included so many different suggestions at once from different players so chaotic balance shifts are inevitable. I guess it would have been more prudent to release a full version first before the more radical changes were implemented.

Or they simply come out, and we are politely giving back feedback, so Gazebo can tweak / smooth them. It feels really 'weird' to read negativity about new content.

 

[JFD]

That's it, then. I wasn't aware that the IsDummy wasn't setup yet. False alarm on my end, but – in the meantime – anything I can do to help?

G

It might be prudent to throw this into the CP, so people don't get this issue in the - tragic - event that they're not using RtP, ExCE, or CID, but are using another mod that uses dummy policies (custom civs are notorious for this).

UPDATE Policies
SET IsDummy = 1
WHERE PolicyBranchType IS NULL
AND NOT Type IN (SELECT FreePolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreePolicy IS NOT NULL)
AND NOT Type IN (SELECT FreeFinishingPolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreeFinishingPolicy IS NOT NULL);

CREATE TRIGGER CBP_DummyPolicies
AFTER INSERT ON Policies
WHEN NEW.PolicyBranchType IS NULL
AND NOT NEW.Type IN (SELECT FreePolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreePolicy IS NOT NULL)
AND NOT NEW.Type IN (SELECT FreeFinishingPolicy FROM PolicyBranchTypes WHERE FreeFinishingPolicy IS NOT NULL)
BEGIN
	UPDATE Policies
	SET IsDummy = 1
	WHERE Type = NEW.Type;
END;

This'll just catch any policy without a Policy Branch assigned, except where that policy is the free starter/finisher given out by a Policy Branch. Tested and works.
EDIT: Fixes the wonder issue, definitely.

 

[hokath]

I'm getting obliterated on Immortal quick speed. 3 Religions and the Great Library gone by turn 35. My neighbor went Authority and has 40 pop vs my 12 on turn 50 or so. Not sure what kind of bonuses they are getting, but they are too large it seems.

 

[supracseduch]

Everyone keeps saying this as if something magical happens when I change the number on the 'How to Install' page and don't call it a 'beta.' Betas these days are just as stable as the more rapid 'official' releases were prior to 1.0 (for better or worse). I'm not specifically calling you out supracseduch, but simply noting that there's a common trend around here to bemoan a new beta, as if it doesn't mean as much. That's silly.

Furthermore, I'm not going to release a new official version while C4DF just issued its first beta, as C4DF is integral to the project. Putmalk needs debug time, and there are still some outstanding issues with the CP that I'm waiting on others to solve. So, in the meantime, I'm checking off boxes on my to-do list.

In short: everyone, pipe down on this, okay? Play the beta, report back, and we'll move on from here. This is a big project, with lots of gears and cogs, and I don't have control over all of them.

For the record, there were some pretty sizable issues with the unit scaling model in the second half of the game. Lots of smaller changes had been made (and units added) since my last unit balance pass, thus it was time for a pass to take place. Not to mention that the finalization of a few other features revealed some issues with the existing balance.

G

There's a minority of players who only play full versions, and it's been a while since the last full version. (Not actually sure if they're the minority, since I'm basing this on the results of the "Are You A Beta Tester" poll. Guests browsing this subforum usually outnumber the browsing members so they might not even have accounts.) Indeed, nothing "magical" happens, only that it allows these players to catch up to the new stuff. But very well, I'll keep quiet about it now. Hopefully this post would convince them to try the betas too.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm getting obliterated on Immortal quick speed. 3 Religions and the Great Library gone by turn 35. My neighbor went Authority and has 40 pop vs my 12 on turn 50 or so. Not sure what kind of bonuses they are getting, but they are too large it seems.

Same bonuses as before. I fixed some rather nasty quirks in the AI specialization optimization system, maybe it is that?

G

 

[tu_79]

Chapeau!

You've really done it, and in no time. Like the % to science. It asks for manually increase a resource production in the city to allow the building generate more science. It asks for imbalanced production, while the happiness mechanic do exactly the opposite.

Wish I have more time to test it.