New Beta Version - October 8th (10-8)

[Kim Dong Un]

Regardless of anybody's reasons for wanting it changed, @pineappledan 's alternative just sounds so much more unique and fun. No offense to Big Z, but this is an awesome idea that I'd much rather prefer.

Also, has China officially hopped off the Rationalism wagon and onto the Industry train? Losing that WLTKD bonus leaves no incentive for Wu to lean towards Rationalism. Cheap Chinese manufacturing and labour; we're ramping up that realism...

 

[amateurgamer88]

Another option for Pentagon is focusing on air units:

Increase air unit capacity of all cities by 2
Give all air units a promotion that grants: +1 Operation Range and increased evasion

 

[Stalker0]

One oddity I'm noticing, the memory issue (that causes yields to disappear) is a lot more prevalent in this version. In the last version it certainly would happen, especially late game, but in this version I am seeing it all the time.

 

[pineappledan]

Another option for Pentagon is focusing on air units:

Increase air unit capacity of all cities by 2
Give all air units a promotion that grants: +1 Operation Range and increased evasion

A wonder giving global air capacity to cities would be new code. You could give added capacity to carriers using existing code though.

 

[Guynemer]

Maybe this is either too radical an idea, or beyond the capabilities of the game, but what if instead of giving special forces units, it rendered such units undetectable except when adjacent to other units, like the sub?

I agree that having two wonders with the same bonus kind of ruins the, ahem, "mouthfeel"

 

[amateurgamer88]

A wonder giving global air capacity to cities would be new code. You could give added capacity to carriers using existing code though.

Does giving more air capacity to airports require new code?

 

[pineappledan]

Yes

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Wind Plant/Hydro Plant - doubled tile yield bonuses

Wait.... I construct one building and get instantly 12 yields per tile? Isnt this an insane yield inflation? I know those buildings should have an impact, but I never feeled that those buildings were too weak.

Poland Ducal Stable - now grants +100 culture when constructed

This is such an uncreative and useless addition. There was already some approval to my suggestion, that a horse deposit spawn near the city, like Indonesias UA, instead of a flat +1 horse.
Also a change to +1 social policy for every 4 chosen policies would be an option, which effectivly would increase the total policies for poland per game atleast by one, which would be a small buff.

Industry Mercantilism - swapped gold per construction with science per construction Protectionism - now grants +10% food/science in WLTKD cities

I think gold/science swap makes sense, but the WLTKD bonus is too big. Half the value would be fairly enough or not even needed. I dont have read that much responses to the previous changes to the industrial tree and we may should wait a bit.

Pentagon - removed gold upgrade cost reduction; added 'Terracotta' effect of unit duplication for land units

Getting some units for free might be ok for the phase of the game the terracotta wonder appears, but you need to finish Imperialismn for it, so it comes very late. In that state of the game, you will already have conquered a lot and have a huge veteran army, why should you want now some new, inexperienced units? The number of turns you need for new units is drastically reduced in comparison to the early game, so why blocking a unique wonder with such function?

Medical Lab- now changes city Population by 2 instantly when constructed; boosts local specialists by +2 (was +1) Wind Plant/Hydro Plant - doubled tile yield bonuses Factory - each Factory boosts production of all Factories by +1 Broadcast Tower and Stock Exchange - now +1 per 2 citizens (was +1 per 5) Stadium - now +1 GAP per 4 citizens

That is in total an additional yield gore for late game, degrading more the done effort in the time before the buildings were constructed. I think the game needs flatened yield increase for late game, not even more boosts.

 

[Gazebo]

This is such an uncreative and useless addition. There was already some approval to my suggestion, that a horse deposit spawn near the city, like Indonesias UA, instead of a flat +1 horse.
Also a change to +1 social policy for every 4 chosen policies would be an option, which effectivly would increase the total policies for poland per game atleast by one, which would be a small buff.

Entirely new code, and somewhat tricky to implement cleanly, as the existing code for free resources relies on Indonesia's base code and luxuries that are unique to a civ. So no, not a simple bonus.
Second is also a new bit of code, and I don't feel that Poland is underperforming on it's UA right now.

Definitely not 'uncreative' or useless.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Entirely new code, and somewhat tricky to implement cleanly, as the existing code for free resources relies on Indonesia's base code and luxuries that are unique to a civ. So no, not a simple bonus.
Second is also a new bit of code, and I don't feel that Poland is underperforming on it's UA right now.

Definitely not 'uncreative' or useless.

G

Whats with the Candi? The luxury creation is done with the building and should be linked with the building instead with the UA, or?
Some month ago was a long discussion about that and the rating for Poland was way more in the direction of underperforming. Till you reach renaissance, your whole bonus consists by one policy and an extremly terrain dependant UB.

Uncreative in the way, thats again only culture..... The UB is too weak?.... add culture.... that was done too often for underrated UB.
A correct played Poland should never have any issues with its amount of policies, thats what you need the culture for. So why adding something to an aspect of a civ, wheres already a lead?
Science would make sense, cause its simply something the civ didnt have any advantage yet. Even food would be better, if you want, see those horses pulling plows for farms in peace time.

 

[Gazebo]

Whats with the Candi? The luxury creation is done with the building and should be linked with the building instead with the UA, or?
Some month ago was a long discussion about that and the rating for Poland was way more in the direction of underperforming. Till you reach renaissance, your whole bonus consists by one policy and an extremly terrain dependant UB.

Uncreative in the way, thats again only culture..... The UB is too weak?.... add culture.... that was done too often for underrated UB.
A correct played Poland should never have any issues with its amount of policies, thats what you need the culture for. So why adding something to an aspect of a civ, wheres already a lead?
Science would make sense, cause its simply something the civ didnt have any advantage yet. Even food would be better, if you want, see those horses pulling plows for farms in peace time.

Candi code is type-specific.

People complain about Poland's uniqueness, not its viability. I think it is fine right now.

G

 

[pineappledan]

@BiteInTheMark ive tried to use the candi code for a different use to no avail. The candi code pulls only from a list of luxury (has to be a land luxury) resources that the UA of the civ unlocks. Horses aren’t unique to Poland and they are a strategic. It’s not as simple as a few minor tweaks.

I don’t have many strong opinions about Poland’s kit, myself.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Removed free worker on immortal/deity, increased ABC yields to compensate

I think you messed something up. Shouldnt it be emperor and immortal which get their worker removed?

 

[JamesNinelives]

I just noticed that it was the CS, not RCS that was increased for Skirmisher units. So now they are tankier than the equivalent ranged unit.

I'm not sure what we are going for with skirmishers and this change. The point of the skirmish is to avoid attacks in the first place. Right now I get more RCS for less hammers with range units, the fact that skirmisher can tank a little better blows I don't want them to take in the first place I don't think is going to change anything.

I'm very happy with this change personally. In the early game this unit type doesn't always have enough movement to get out of range after attacking. This makes using them more forgiving .

Anyway, I've always thought that a person on a horse should be a little tougher than the same person on foot. Particularly as they don't benefit from defense bonuses from terrain.

Edit: Also G I just wanted to say I appreciate the tags you put on your release posts and I find them funny. I didn't mention is at the time but the 'aggregating tempest' or whatever one was my favourite so far.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I think you messed something up. Shouldnt it be emperor and immortal which get their worker removed?

Yeah, I'm confused as to what's going on with this decision.

Going to point out that Medical lab instant pop boost also now removes some appeal from CN Tower.

 

[Stalker0]

Had an amazing game of Austria. The kind of start you always want, surrounded by CS, tons of alliance and marriages, I had almost more votes than the rest of the council. Even on Immortal I was top dog....until about turn 240 when the AI proceeded to clean my clock. Its like the world woke up as one, and proceeded to snipe my CS left and right. England was my neighbor, and brought the pain from land and from sea, and I just rolled over and died.

A few notes from the experience:

1) Tradition play has always had supply problems, that's part of the balance. I will say that with the new surge of navy building from AI, tradition players may need some supply compensation. Now of course you can always try to snag Brandenburg and the like, but its not always in the cards, and with 20-25 supply fielding a competitive navy and leaves you very little on land.

2) I'm putting England's Ship of the Line on my "Naga Mala meter", for a few reasons:

a) The AI builds a large amount of ranged ships already, and combined with its fast ability to upgrade, you get an incredibly powerful fleet which can be obtained before Aresenal investment. But even with that...
b) AI England has the unique ability to field Bombardment III Logistic Frigates right out of the gate, which murder cities into the ground. I lost one of my big cities in 3 turns, and it wasn't even the full English fleet. I will note that was not with Arsenals (desperately tried to build one but to none avail). But the trick is that if England has nigh tech parity or superiority with you (and with their early spy they often do), it is quite possible to see this rush before Arsenals. And without them, I'm not sure any city can really hold up against an English fleet for very long.

It was only one showing, so I'm not hitting it with nerf bat yet...but I have my hand on the handle.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Had an amazing game of Austria. The kind of start you always want, surrounded by CS, tons of alliance and marriages, I had almost more votes than the rest of the council. Even on Immortal I was top dog....until about turn 240 when the AI proceeded to clean my clock. Its like the world woke up as one, and proceeded to snipe my CS left and right. England was my neighbor, and brought the pain from land and from sea, and I just rolled over and died.

A few notes from the experience:

1) Tradition play has always had supply problems, that's part of the balance. I will say that with the new surge of navy building from AI, tradition players may need some supply compensation. Now of course you can always try to snag Brandenburg and the like, but its not always in the cards, and with 20-25 supply fielding a competitive navy and leaves you very little on land.

2) I'm putting England's Ship of the Line on my "Naga Mala meter", for a few reasons:

a) The AI builds a large amount of ranged ships already, and combined with its fast ability to upgrade, you get an incredibly powerful fleet which can be obtained before Aresenal investment. But even with that...
b) AI England has the unique ability to field Bombardment III Logistic Frigates right out of the gate, which murder cities into the ground. I lost one of my big cities in 3 turns, and it wasn't even the full English fleet. I will note that was not with Arsenals (desperately tried to build one but to none avail). But the trick is that if England has nigh tech parity or superiority with you (and with their early spy they often do), it is quite possible to see this rush before Arsenals. And without them, I'm not sure any city can really hold up against an English fleet for very long.

It was only one showing, so I'm not hitting it with nerf bat yet...but I have my hand on the handle.

How in the hell do you get through games so quick? It's taken me almost a week to finish my current game on standard settings, meanwhile I've seen you post several recent game reports within the past couple days. Crazy, although I'll admit I play at a very slow and indecisive pace most of the time, but still...

 

[Gazebo]

One oddity I'm noticing, the memory issue (that causes yields to disappear) is a lot more prevalent in this version. In the last version it certainly would happen, especially late game, but in this version I am seeing it all the time.

Not sure - I haven't noticed a memory-use spike in latest version(s), but if it becomes a performance concern let @ilteroi know.

A wonder giving global air capacity to cities would be new code. You could give added capacity to carriers using existing code though.

It is new code, and air power is something we have to be careful with because - frankly - the human is a lot better at managing the abstraction. TBH I'd rather see Terracotta change than Pentagon, the instant effect is more useful late-game (and easier to time correctly) than it is on Terracotta. Terracotta is a weird wonder, it isn't even in the right location time-wise. I'd like to move and change it.

G

 

[Stalker0]

How in the hell do you get through games so quick? It's taken me almost a week to finish my current game on standard settings, meanwhile I've seen you post several recent game reports within the past couple days. Crazy, although I'll admit I play at a very slow and indecisive pace most of the time, but still...

Hehe a combination of a fast computer, recent insomnia, and a lot of very focused play. Not a good way to go about it, but at least it lets me give lots of results.

 

[Stalker0]

To close out the evening, one more quick story that shows the new happiness successfully in action.

I was given a very nice jungle start, tons of resources. I did a focused Tradition push, and got 4 cities in very quick order (most immortal AIs only had 2 at this point). It turns out...too quickly. My happiness plummeted, barbs starting appearing, and one of my cities revolted.

I consider this a success, it shows the system working as its intended...to slow mad rush expansion. This is also a nice counterpoint between Tradition and Progress, even though Tradition does allow for quicker expansion than progress, I think progress brings more infrastructure tools to the table (more hammers and gold, earlier worker, 10% faster building, and a +3 food (eventually science) to help with distress.