New BNW FAQ!

[Bfoxius]

It has to be either Italy or Indonesia. My money's on Indonesia.

 

[Louis XXIV]

First of all I am Dutch, so I am very much aware of the status when it was a colony.
Srivijaya is NOT Indonesia, it is like saying Rome and Italy are the same thing, or the celts and United Kingdom.

What about the Mughals and India?


Just to turn to this one, the question is:

"Q: What is the name of a Unique Ability found in the next civ you want to reveal?"

The key there is the next civ to be revealed. Going under the theory that they've been building up Morocco for awhile with subtle hints (the poster, the archaeology namedrop), I suspect that this is the Moroccan UA. A trade-based UA is not unreasonable.

That being said, it would make me feel like they're stealing the Arabic UA.

 

[sanpavlos]

At this point, I'm in the Indonesia/Morocco/Sioux/Venice camp -- through buy-in to the "evidence," but flavored by wishful thinking. However, this doesn't account for the There's-Gonna-Be-A-Surprise factor. There's always a surprise!

Mi-No-A! Mi-No-A! Mi-No-A!

 

[Louis XXIV]

By the way, to chime in on the speculation about the unit:

It's almost certainly a rifleman or a cavalry replacement. Rifle I could see Italy (Carabinieri most likely). I wonder if a Moroccan Black Guard could plausibly be a Rifle replacement. Anyone want to think of another civ that could have a Rifle UU?

For cavalry, the only one that comes to mind are the Sioux.

 

[Pikachao]

At one point that achievement was the strongest point in Italy's favor. Now people are saying it isn't.

Is there a way to get to the bottom of this or are we just left in a cyclical speculation-mobile?

cyclical speculation mobile, it's tradition.

 

[nunor]

At this point, I'm in the Indonesia/Morocco/Sioux/Venice camp -- through buy-in to the "evidence," but flavored by wishful thinking. However, this doesn't account for the There's-Gonna-Be-A-Surprise factor. There's always a surprise!

Mi-No-A! Mi-No-A! Mi-No-A!

You're against the inclusion of Italy because it's represented by Rome, but you're for the Minoans.

 

[Villager720]

Cases against Italy? Huzzah!

#2: I think that actually points to Italy ...if we've settled on Italy & Venice as frontrunners. If Italy seems a weak modern euro choice, surely Venice is far weaker. So then who? Romania? Yugoslavia?

#3: Yeah, that seems like a bad sign for Italy to me, too. But, if you DON'T include the achievement and folks deduce that there's a missing scenario badge, then they'll know that the hidden full civ has to do with the scenario and that really narrows things down a lot. Capisce?

#4: Sure, after he razed Thebes. The bastard!

2. Not necessarily. The point I was making is the arguments for the inclusion of Italy highlight its role in the Renaissance. So I noted that we've already had a Renaissance focused expansion and thus makes its inclusion now seem..odd. So it has less to do with the industrial era, and more to do with the Italy people want having already had its moment in the sun pass by. "

3. This makes sense, but only if they're playing well thought out mindgames. Which, honestly, they havent shown signs of. Pictures of shadows and buildings on a poster are far from reverse psychology.

4. Sure, after they rebelled. The bastards.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you
Cases against Italy:

1. France is getting a UA overhaul involving Great Works, so we don't necessarily "need" a Civ to take advantage of the new Great Works mechanic.
2. This expansion focuses on the Industrial+ game. G&Ks was the Classical-Renaissance. If Renaissance Italy couldn't make it in the Into the Renaissance scenario, why now?
3. Its listed in the Scramble Achieves with the Boers and Belgium. If they're carefully making sure to exclude "spoiler" achievements, why include Italy?
4. Representing Renaissance Italy as a conglomeration, in my opinion, is near heresy. The Italian peninsula during the Renaissance was defined by the competing city states. Sure, Firaxis did the same to Greece, but under Alexander (an apt leader to choose for a Greek conglomerate) they were a unified entity.
5. The absence of city states and their color schemes seem a little too much to run with. The original proposer of that theory has taken other patterns to mean more than they did (BNW announcement date).

#1 and #4 are very strong points against Italy, but I think #3 is actually pro-Italy.

 

[nokmirt]

It's probably not the Moroccan unit as I'd expect Morocco to have something from earlier in the game.
Cavalry/Rifleman replacement fit best with Sioux or Italy if you ask me.

An unreveiled unit, not unique. It is a brand new unit that any civ can build, not a unique unit for a particular civ. I don't doubt it is revolver cavalry or something. We need some more non unique units.

I have to think like some other people, if it is a UU, it is for the Sioux.

 

[sanpavlos]

if a Moroccan Black Guard could plausibly be a Rifle replacement. Anyone want to think of another civ that could have a Rifle UU?

For cavalry, the only one that comes to mind are the Sioux.

Zoomburuk = camel gunner or gun camel. Not sure it was used by Morocco & can't research it at the moment, but would be neat if historically accurate for them.

Spoiler :

 

[cybrxkhan]

cyclical speculation mobile, it's tradition.

Yeah, we've been going in cycles. The arguments for and against Italy have been going on for months. I'm in the pro-Italy camp, but I'm too lazy to spout the typical pro-Italy arguments, because I'll just hear the anti-Italy arguments again that won't convince me, and the anti-Italy people won't be convinced by pro-Italy arguments, so nothing's going to change until we actuall know the final four civs.

At this point most of us have settled on what each of us believes to be the same (or similar) final four for the last month or so.

 

[ScottMcPwn]

Zoomburuk = camel gunner or gun camel. Not sure it was used by Morocco & can't research it at the moment, but would be neat if historically accurate for them.

Spoiler :

Unfortunately the Moroccans did not use the Zamburak, however the Egyptians, Arabs, Afghans, Mughals/Indians and mainly by the Persians/Iranians.

 

[gunnergoz]

One strong argument for Italy is that it is one of the world's premiere tourist destinations. Mind you, many places are big tourist meccas, but Italy has been on people's Must See and Bucket Lists from the early 19th Century. In fact it is one of the earliest major destinations for travelers since tourism became a commonplace pastime some two hundred years ago. Since tourism is an entirely new aspect to Civ V, I can see why they might select a nation that will best represent that side of the game, particularly towards the end game. The Romans were not similarly prioritized, but Italians since the mid-1800's have welcomed millions upon millions of tourists to see the country's ancient and Renaissance works and wonders. A similar argument can of course be made for other countries, but I think that Italy's candidacy as a top tourism nation is worth thinking about.

 

[fuzzatron717]

Zoomburuk = camel gunner or gun camel. Not sure it was used by Morocco & can't research it at the moment, but would be neat if historically accurate for them.

Spoiler :

Hey that's pretty cool I want a camel like that.

 

[SnowKomodo]

One strong argument for Italy is that it is one of the world's premiere tourist destinations. Mind you, many places are big tourist meccas, but Italy has been on people's Must See and Bucket Lists from the early 19th Century. In fact it is one of the earliest major destinations for travelers since tourism became a commonplace pastime some two hundred years ago. Since tourism is an entirely new aspect to Civ V, I can see why they might select a nation that will best represent that side of the game, particularly towards the end game. The Romans were not similarly prioritized, but Italians since the mid-1800's have welcomed millions upon millions of tourists to see the country's ancient and Renaissance works and wonders. A similar argument can of course be made for other countries, but I think that Italy's candidacy as a top tourism nation is worth thinking about.

Wonderful points for the wonders and beauty of Italy...but means absolutely nothing to the game Civ: BNW as an argument for them in favor. Unless by argument you mean 'a reason why they would be a good fit for BNW's tourism mechanics' which is fine but, again, not an 'argument' per se

 

[DeutschDachs]

One strong argument for Italy is that it is one of the world's premiere tourist destinations. Mind you, many places are big tourist meccas, but Italy has been on people's Must See and Bucket Lists from the early 19th Century. In fact it is one of the earliest major destinations for travelers since tourism became a commonplace pastime some two hundred years ago. Since tourism is an entirely new aspect to Civ V, I can see why they might select a nation that will best represent that side of the game, particularly towards the end game. The Romans were not similarly prioritized, but Italians since the mid-1800's have welcomed millions upon millions of tourists to see the country's ancient and Renaissance works and wonders. A similar argument can of course be made for other countries, but I think that Italy's candidacy as a top tourism nation is worth thinking about.

Yes I feel bad for the Italians with the amount of tourists. I've never experienced such a high volume of obnoxious people as I did in Venice. When it falls into the sea i won't weep

 

[oxygenjoe]

Zoomburuk = camel gunner or gun camel. Not sure it was used by Morocco & can't research it at the moment, but would be neat if historically accurate for them.

Spoiler :

aaaah if only my camel didn't run away..

 

[Arachnofiend]

Considering how strictly 2KGames have been guarding the identity of the four civs that are still undisclosed, the fact that Italy was listed in the scenario achievements is a very strong case against them being a main game civ.

What, you mean like how they casually mentioned Morocco's name in a press release that could have easily had that piece edited out before publication if they wanted to

 

[Gucumatz]

A European civ and with everything in favour of Italy so far, it seems like we will have Italy and Morocco. Second most likely is oddly enough the Normans in my opinion because of that stupid motte and bailey. We haven't had a "What the hell" civ in a while since, a distinct possibility.

Outside of that I don't see many legitimate contenders in Europe. Yugoslavia potentially. Hungary is out, Lithuania is out, Belgium is out, etc. Outside of these it would only be a few wildhorses that could possibly be guessed at, but all would be at less than 5% chance at getting in (Romania, Finland, Swiss , Kievan Rus/Ukraine, etc)

 

[Geppenguin]

Both India and China have a much richer culture and history than what we now know as Indonesia.

Also both India and China have a massive impact on modern society.

China can be considered a country since the Emperors reign started, and the warlords ended.

India can be considered a country since 1885.



First of all I am Dutch, so I am very much aware of the status when it was a colony.
Srivijaya is NOT Indonesia, it is like saying Rome and Italy are the same thing, or the celts and United Kingdom.

1. Indonesian culture is directly descended from the rich Malay culture that permeates the entire Malay Archipelago, a culture that has given rise to countless kingdoms and sultanates, a rich literary language (Jawi), arts (batik making, wayang kulit, kris-forging). It has absorbed cultural influences from India (Hinduism and Buddhism, Sanskrit loanwords), Arabia (Islam, Arabic loanwords) and China (Overseas Chinese settlers giving rise to the Peranakan culture). I'm an ethnic Chinese living in the region, and I can tell you that its culture is just as rich and colourful as India's or China's.

2. Indonesia's status as the source of the spice trade drove the Age of Exploration by the Portuguese, Spanish (Magellan) and the Dutch. The spice must flow; and it came from Indonesia. As the world's 4th most populous nation and home to the largest Islamic population, Indonesia has significant clout. If you want to talk about "massive impact on modern society", Indonesia certainly outstrips Polynesia, all the Native American civs, the Songhai and others.

3. This is not "Countries", this is "Civilisation". The modern-state is by no means the criteria for including a civ. For that matter, India can actually be considered a single entity during the Mauryan Empire, and Indonesia a single entity during the Majapahit.

4. You may be Dutch, but I live a 45 minute boat ride away from Indonesia, so don't use that as a source of authority. Telling them that despite their rich pre-colonial history they do not deserve to be considered a "civilisation" implies that the Dutch were bringing order to a "savage" land; very ethnocentric.
Linking the Srivijaya/Majapahit to modern Indonesia is in fact far better than linking the Celts to modern Scotland or Alexander to modern Greece. Indonesia still keeps their centuries-old art forms; you don't see Greeks carving marble statues or leading in scientific innovation any more, do you? Javanese and Malay are very much living languages, unlike Gaelic.