pre-release info New Civ Game Guide: Qing

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

No, the Summer Palace was what the Europeans called Yuanming Yuan. Chengde Mountain Resort was literally called "Summer Mountain Resort" 避暑山莊 in Chinese.

I just took a quick look into this and from wikipedia, I think the place people often refer to as Summer Palace and the famously destroyed Yuanming Yuan seem to be 2 different gardens.

Old Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you have any insights for us in this?

 

[gdr_willter]

I just took a quick look into this and from wikipedia, I think the place people often refer to as Summer Palace and the famously destroyed Yuanming Yuan seem to be 2 different gardens.

Old Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you have any insights for us in this?

Actually, the "Summer Palace" does not mean an unique exact site. It is the common concept of China under the rule of northern people. The foreign emperors wanted to maintain their influence toward both of mainland China and their nothern homeland (or they just really can't accept the hotter summer of southern land), so they switched their palace following the seasons.

But ironically, the well known Summer Palace of Qing (颐和园) is not the typical Summer Palace, it is the famous imperial amusement park. They don't even call it Summer Palace, it was named after the old symbol Yi(颐).

 

[8housesofelixir]

I just took a quick look into this and from wikipedia, I think the place people often refer to as Summer Palace and the famously destroyed Yuanming Yuan seem to be 2 different gardens.

Old Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Summer Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you have any insights for us in this?

Yes, it is as gdr_willter said, every palace where the Qing rulers used to live outside the Walled City of Beijing could be called "Summer Palace" in the West.

After the Yuanming Yuan was destroyed in 1860, Qing emperors began to live in Yihe Yuan instead. As a result, the Europeans began to call Yihe Yuan the "Summer Palace" more often. Yihe Yuan remains here today, and the "Summer Palace = Yihe Yuan" nomenclature stayed in modern English as well.

Nomadic and semi-nomadic people tended to move between their summer and winter pastures, and this practice largely remained the same when they entered the settled world. For China, Mongols and Manchus dislike spending their summer in big cities such as Beijing. They would move back to the steppes (Xanadu, Chengde Resort) or just somewhere outside the city (Yuanming Yuan, Yihe Yuan) during the summer, and only used the city palace as their winter residence.

Xanadu is a more extreme example than Chengde (probably because the Mongols are purely nomads, whereas the Manchus mostly settled and practiced agriculture). Even though Xanadu has Chinese-style palaces, the Mongol Khans hardly lived inside them and chose to dwell in the Royal Gardens instead. Kubulai built a movable chamber out of bamboo in the gardens and lived there, which Marco Polo described as a "Bamboo Pavilion."

 

[8housesofelixir]

For reference, below is a painting about Emperor Qianlong holding a banquet for the Dörbet Mongols delegation at the Chengde Mountain Resort in 1754. Qianlong sits on a covered sedan chair in the lower left corner (due to the artistic need to emphasize the emperor, he looks bigger than everyone else around him). This scene happened in summer (about May), and everyone wore lighter clothing for the season.

Note how Qing officials built a couple of yurts and tents rather than Chinese-style chambers to house the delegation and the emperor himself. This place in the Mountain Resort (called 万树园, "Garden of Ten Thousand Woods") is dedicated to housing Mongol nobles, with enough flat grounds and woods to hold yurt camps.

 

[HammurabiTheOverpowered]

Farmland Assessment is a reference to 摊丁入亩: merging head tax into land tax. The original head tax was canceled, and the same amount of tax was distributed to landowners according to the results of Farmland Assessment.
(As a result, landlords increased the rents)
行 has two pronunciations: xing (traveling) and hang (guild). As the English name is Hangshang, this word refers to guild traders, those who trade with foreign trading fleets at Guangzhou.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

For reference, below is a painting about Emperor Qianlong holding a banquet for the Dörbet Mongols delegation at the Chengde Mountain Resort in 1754. Qianlong sits on a covered sedan chair in the lower left corner (due to the artistic need to emphasize the emperor, he looks bigger than everyone else around him). This scene happened in summer (about May), and everyone wore lighter clothing for the season.

Thank you and @gdr_willter for detailed answers. I really love to learn. I have a couple of questions for you as a Chinese person and a Chinese civ player, I hope this is an appropriate place to ask.

- Do you think the Chinese civ player base will be upset/negative towards a Qing emperor being represented for the first time in the franchise, even if he was a popular emperor like Kangxi, or Qianlong? How do the Chinese public view the legacy of the Qing dynasty nowadays? I know it is hard to sum up the sentiment of almost 1.5 billion people, but you can try your best. I feel like we will have at least one or a few more Chinese leaders somewhere down the road, someone with actual imperial power this time. As a Vietnamese Canadian who recently relocated to Vietnam to learn about my heritage, I know there is a lot of negative sentiment towards the Nguyen dynasty here, pretty much from the founder of the dynasty all the way to the end. Pretty much all major Vietnamese cities have no roads or streets named after Nguyen emperors, something that doesn't happen with all other major dynasties in Vietnamese history. Even if Minh Mang (the most accomplished and popular Nguyen emperor) is chosen, I don't think he will be a popular choice here. I kinda want to know if the sentiment is the same in China regarding the legacy of the Qing.

- One very intriguing figure in Qing history is Cixi the Empress Dowager. She was brought up a couple of times in the past in the forum, on youtube, and even reddit, but obviously it wasn't appropriate as a leader choice in previous games, but in Civ7, it is kind of a free-for-all when it comes to leaders. Do you think she may cause backlash in the Chinese civ community if she is chosen, considering how controversial she is?
Thank you for your time

 

[8housesofelixir]

- Do you think the Chinese civ player base will be upset/negative towards a Qing emperor being represented for the first time in the franchise, even if he was a popular emperor like Kangxi, or Qianlong? How do the Chinese public view the legacy of the Qing dynasty nowadays? I know it is hard to sum up the sentiment of almost 1.5 billion people, but you can try your best. I feel like we will have at least one or a few more Chinese leaders somewhere down the road, someone with actual imperial power this time. As a Vietnamese Canadian who recently relocated to Vietnam to learn about my heritage, I know there is a lot of negative sentiment towards the Nguyen dynasty here, pretty much from the founder of the dynasty all the way to the end. Pretty much all major Vietnamese cities have no roads or streets named after Nguyen emperors, something that doesn't happen with all other major dynasties in Vietnamese history. Even if Minh Mang (the most accomplished and popular Nguyen emperor) is chosen, I don't think he will be a popular choice here. I kinda want to know if the sentiment is the same in China regarding the legacy of the Qing.

- One very intriguing figure in Qing history is Cixi the Empress Dowager. She was brought up a couple of times in the past in the forum, on youtube, and even reddit, but obviously it wasn't appropriate as a leader choice in previous games, but in Civ7, it is kind of a free-for-all when it comes to leaders. Do you think she may cause backlash in the Chinese civ community if she is chosen, considering how controversial she is?
Thank you for your time

Thank you for your interest, and the observation from Vietnam is also interesting to me.

For Qing emperors - there will always be some vocal Han nationalists complaining about a Manchu emperor, although I would say the are not that representative of the larger Chinese player base (if anything, having Kongzi as a leader generates more controversy at this point, as people are not used to non-head-of-state leaders).
- A popular emperor would be largely well-received, especially Kangxi, who is very popular and well-respected. There is a reason why the Chinese TV industry loves to make historical TV dramas about Kangxi.
- Qianlong is generally relatively popular, but not as popular as Kangxi, especially when recent historiography and popular history narratives begin to cast more negative lights onto him. For instance, the phrase "Ten Great Campaigns" is sometimes used sarcastically, since most of those campaigns were imperial propaganda rather than commendable victories (such as the Qing-Vietnam War).
- Overall, Kangxi is considered an emperor who worked hard and established stuff, while Qianlong is an emperor who sat there and enjoyed already established stuff.
- Cixi is still a figure with very negative connotations, and having her as a leader will undoubtedly create great controversy. The unpopularity of Cixi is primarily due to her status as an anti-modernization figure. She is generally viewed as representing the ultra-conservative, counterrevolutionary force that plagued modern China, which prevented the nation from achieving a better status. A large part of the anti-Manchu nationalism is directed against her as well, since historically Cixi tried very hard to keep the supreme power in Manchu hands while ignoring able Han officials despite their loyalty. Although I would say most players won't argue this deeply - they just don't want to have a "loser" as their leader, who lost every war she fought and drove the empire into bankruptcy.


I would say Kangxi is the safest choice for Qing emperors as leaders. Of course, FXS can always land on a non-emperor official or scholar as a leader.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

- Cixi is still a figure with very negative connotations, and having her as a leader will undoubtedly create great controversy. The unpopularity of Cixi is primarily due to her status as an anti-modernization figure. She is generally viewed as representing the ultra-conservative, counterrevolutionary force that plagued modern China, which prevented the nation from achieving a better status. A large part of the anti-Manchu nationalism is directed against her as well, since historically Cixi tried very hard to keep the supreme power in Manchu hands while ignoring able Han officials despite their loyalty. Although I would say most players won't argue this deeply - they just don't want to have a "loser" as their leader, who lost every war she fought and drove the empire into bankruptcy.

Thank you so much for taking your time for such a detailed answer. From what I learned of Cixi, a lot of her cruelty was done in self-preservation and to maintain an ailing Qing dynasty, which kinda mirrors Wu Zetian's actions, and I thought if Chinese players seem to be fine with Wu's inclusion (I assume they are fine with Wu), they are probably going to accept Cixi as well. Turn out the situations are not quite similar.
Also, Qianlong is quite a well known figure in Asia and Asian diasporas worldwide, thanks to the 90s show The Fair Princess, so more people probably have heard of Qianlong, and maybe even more people have heard of Puyi (thanks to The Last Emperor) than Kangxi, even though Kangxi is definitely the Qing emperor with the most achievements.

 

[HammurabiTheOverpowered]

Thank you so much for taking your time for such a detailed answer. From what I learned of Cixi, a lot of her cruelty was done in self-preservation and to maintain an ailing Qing dynasty, which kinda mirrors Wu Zetian's actions, and I thought if Chinese players seem to be fine with Wu's inclusion (I assume they are fine with Wu), they are probably going to accept Cixi as well. Turn out the situations are not quite similar.
Also, Qianlong is quite a well known figure in Asia and Asian diasporas worldwide, thanks to the 90s show The Fair Princess, so more people probably have heard of Qianlong, and maybe even more people have heard of Puyi (thanks to The Last Emperor) than Kangxi, even though Kangxi is definitely the Qing emperor with the most achievements.

Cixi is a typical Chinese Empress: she took power after her husband died and tried to maintain power as long as possible, by insisting the emperor's successor was still not a grown man. But she went too far:
She prevented her son from being educated ("How could my little boy run an empire? Let mommy do it for you."), then her son died early of venereal disease. (Ironically, this just proved that her son is a grown man)
The second emperor was poisoned to death when he tried to take power. He wanted to become another Emperor Meiji. We have no idea if he would succeed, only because of Cixi's poison.
And she chose a 3-year-old child as the third. He lost the throne at 6, and became a puppet emperor again in 1930s, under Japanese army's control.

If all the above can be considered normal court intrigue.
The wars she lost while in power are also reason enough for her to be disliked.

Wu Zetian also played a lot with intrigue, like secret cops, framing political enemies, and creating fake miracles. Not honorable, but at least the normal level of ethics for a politician.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Cixi is a typical Chinese Empress: she took power after her husband died and tried to maintain power as long as possible, by insisting the emperor's successor was too young and inexperienced. But she went too far:
She prevented her son from being educated ("How could my little idiot run an empire? Let mummy do it for you."), then her son died early of venereal disease.
The second emperor was poisoned to death when he tried to take power. He wanted to become another Emperor Meiji. We have no idea if he would succeed, only because of Cixi's poison.
And she chose a 3-year-old child as the third.

If all this can only be considered normal court intrigue.
The wars she lost while in power are also reason enough for her to be disliked.

And a sound reason why Chinese folks at the time developed Anti-Qing sentiment. through various groups. One believe is to restore Ming, the other looked at different ideology entirely. and the latter are those who became Christians. like Dr. Sun Yatsen. (The First Angel Sun).

 

[HammurabiTheOverpowered]

And a sound reason why Chinese folks at the time developed Anti-Qing sentiment. through various groups. One believe is to restore Ming, the other looked at different ideology entirely. and the latter are those who became Christians. like Dr. Sun Yatsen. (The First Angel Sun).

Sorry, but I have to point out:
Yatsen 逸仙 means relaxing demi-god
逸 is pronounced the same as 一 (first) but they are different
仙 is usually a lesser god or a demi-god, not a god's angel

The name symbolizes the wish to become a hermit, and he didn't.

 

[Jeppetto]

Haven't been here for a while, just quickly dropping in to say, for those glad we didnt get third Great Wall, I think you still have Great Wall as whoever who evolves from Ming as it is Ageless (on Guide page). Or does it just mean the Ming Wall bonus stays into Modern Age? I keep mistaking Ageless and Persistent.

 

[Zaarin]

Haven't been here for a while, just quickly dropping in to say, for those glad we didnt get third Great Wall, I think you still have Great Wall as whoever who evolves from Ming as it is Ageless (on Guide page). Or does it just mean the Ming Wall bonus stays into Modern Age? I keep mistaking Ageless and Persistent.

Your Great Wall tiles won't disappear or be built over, but you can't build new ones.

 

[Jeppetto]

Your Great Wall tiles won't disappear or be built over, but you can't build new ones.

So how is that however any different to any other previous age Improvement?
Do those lose their bonus?

 

[Zaarin]

So how is that however any different to any other previous age Improvement?
Do those lose their bonus?

Non-persistent buildings and improvements lose their adjacency bonuses.

 

[Jeppetto]

Non-persistent buildings and improvements lose their adjacency bonuses.

Well but Ming Great Wall is Ageless, not Persistent. So it still sounds to me that you can still build it.
I suppose we're just mixing the terms and you can't build it but keep its yields, as you said.

 

[Zaarin]

Well but Ming Great Wall is Ageless, not Persistent. So it still sounds to me that you can still build it.
I suppose we're just mixing the terms and you can't build it but keep its yields, as you said.

They've clarified that Ageless and Persistent was an early mix up of the same terminology. You cannot build improvements and buildings from your previous civs.

 

[Krikkit1]

So how is that however any different to any other previous age Improvement?
Do those lose their bonus?

Yes, regular previous age buildings lose most of their bonuses, also you can build over them.

 

[Jeppetto]

They've clarified that Ageless and Persistent was an early mix up of the same terminology. You cannot build improvements and buildings from your previous civs.

Wouldn't they still need additional term for cross-age buildings like Granary? Or did they settle for Warehouse term for them?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

This should better be what Qing army wears. I don't think they still wear brigandines until the very end of Qing Dynasty.

.
^ This is shown through Japanese perspectives. but it shown defeated Qing soldiers there too. wearing a kind of vest with chinese characters written to the chest and with long sleeve outer shirts.
Any experts on Qing Military please tell me if FXis is correct or not when it comes to Qing Bannermen wearing studded brigandines.