New civ : Dagda's Tears

[sylvain5477]

Would it be possible to shift the city color vaguely? It gets a bit heavy on the green after a while I've noticed, and some name signs are half under the blobs too

Possible !
You think brighter would be better, is that so ?

First time 1% absorption reached, but now I cant seem to build more cities. Do I need Festivals for deeper rooting stuffs to continue?

No.
Nomally you should be able to deep root infinitely, but only in 2 cities at a time.
Would you have a save game showing you cannot deep root anymore ?

Also, more of a FF thing rather than DT civ thing. While I appreciate things being rougher and more advanced in FF, having no normal goblins/warriors and scorpion clan goblins <everywhere> gets VERY annoying. They're not a true problem, but need some seriously extensive zerging. I can understand that they come in fairly early, but when they sometimes pop up right to you and then one of those bastards start pillaging and you cant do a thing it gets very frustrating. And thats not hard, thats poor techlevel/unitlevel scaling of the game IMO.
Random events and dungeons is a whole other bit alltogether as dungeons should be scary, but this...

For FF Team this one

I had poor luck and burned off 11 Wilds to get a fort in one turn that was giving me a lot of trouble... but now later on when I have Distress Tears, I just gun everything down before attacking and I can imagine just stomping anything that comes my way quite soon.

Actually I think it is not wise to attack with Wilds, unless backed up with Prides, you should definetly focus on developement early on, as you cannot be easily attacked, and once getting specials (Shame/Passion/Pride) or real Tier 2 to upgrade to.
Then you can start thinking invasion.

Have yet to test any other tech Tier 2 units, but getting Hunting in a few turns, however Im taking a break for the moment.

Rolling on Emperor, btw.

I only played on Monarch, so it's good to have impression from another level.

Another thing. If you got any ideas to make the city system more user friendly, that'd be worth tweaking IMO. This time around I've been more careful with unit placements and timing of the ritual, however I cant really help it when Im cleaning my territory of goblins and splat, useless city. =\

I just thought I could split the ritual in 4, one for each direction (North/South/West/East) so that you coud better choose the overall spreading.
What would you think about that ?

 

[TC01]

I think that the easiest way to make the city placement system work in Python would be to use a user-selected plot. You can use this code:

CyInterface().setInterfaceMode(InterfaceModeTypes.INTERFACEMODE_PYTHON_PICK_PLOT)

to set the interface mode to "pick a plot", and then you can use the onPlotPicked function in CvEventManager to make stuff happen with a plot. You can also use the canPickPlot function in CvGameUtils to check which plots you would be allowed to pick (the plots you can't pick appear grey, the ones you can pick appear green, when you mouse over them)- only ones with units on them. Then you would have total control over where to make cities.

In my python action buttons tutorial, which is redundant in Fall from Heaven 2 since FFH 2 has a spell system, one of the examples is how to pick a plot and then do stuff to it. You could look at that if you wanted.

 

[sylvain5477]

Interesting but it seems complex to link the two part (before and after selecting the plot).
Moreover I like that you cannot actually choose the exact plot (as it is not so important to Tears actually, as they get the same output from every tiles).

But I'm still wondering how you would make a spell which can target a plot in FF ?

 

[far_wanderer]

Moreover I like that you cannot actually choose the exact plot (as it is not so important to Tears actually, as they get the same output from every tiles).

It actually is hugely important because the Tears need to be able to cover all of their territory in order to convert it. It's also important because the city ends up undefended if the spell doesn't pick the unit you think it should and gets one that wasn't in a stack. The Austrin settlement system would probably be easy to copy.

Once I finally got used to things and started to figure out what they did, I was having a lot of fun except for a few issues (plus the aforementioned city placement):
1 - The movement penalty on bareland. The Tears should really keep the same movement on bareland as they do on rooted tears, otherwise you encourage people to maintain convoluted networks of unabsorbed land.
2 - Not being able to attack with the hero. I like the whole low-attack/high-defense thing, but I don't like being outright prevented from attacking.
3 - The Hippus. It's not really your problem, but the whole digesting tear system is extra vulnerable to raiding horsemen, and it's worse when none of my units can attack and move four times as slow as the invaders. I also got the "things have been spotted moving the smoke" event once and had mistforms to deal with that caused the same problem.

Other than that I've been enjoying the Tears a lot. The absorption system was quite intuitive once I learned to tell the different levels apart (by the way, the size on rooted tears could use a reduction - overlap is a problem). I like marching around through forests and digesting them. The hunt for every possible feature with the hero is fun and gives me a reason to go exploring.

Lastly, on to the bugs. So far I've only found one, but it's serious. Upon upgrading to patch 0.1.7 I get a python error every turn (screenshot attached). It stops war declarations from happening, among probably other things.

 

[sylvain5477]

It actually is hugely important because the Tears need to be able to cover all of their territory in order to convert it. It's also important because the city ends up undefended if the spell doesn't pick the unit you think it should and gets one that wasn't in a stack. The Austrin settlement system would probably be easy to copy.

The cities start with a range of 2 but finish with a range of 3. It is very unlikely that much would stay inbetween cities. And I do not this it really is a problam, once you absorbed every other civs on the map

But I'll think about the Austrin thing (may be capable instead of holding a unit for several turns after creating the city to actually give the unit several turns to move before settling the city)

Once I finally got used to things and started to figure out what they did, I was having a lot of fun except for a few issues (plus the aforementioned city placement):
1 - The movement penalty on bareland. The Tears should really keep the same movement on bareland as they do on rooted tears, otherwise you encourage people to maintain convoluted networks of unabsorbed land.

Was changed in v0.1.6.
Is it not better now ?
Go fishing to get movement increase (fluidity).

2 - Not being able to attack with the hero. I like the whole low-attack/high-defense thing, but I don't like being outright prevented from attacking.

You can actually attack with it, if it is standing on a Rooted Tear. You may also be able to attack with him when I'll do the last Tiers (and after abrosbing every possible feature on the map).

3 - The Hippus. It's not really your problem, but the whole digesting tear system is extra vulnerable to raiding horsemen, and it's worse when none of my units can attack and move four times as slow as the invaders. I also got the "things have been spotted moving the smoke" event once and had mistforms to deal with that caused the same problem.

On the other hand, Digesting Tears also improve freely with every first level promotion , so you may want to check several low level techs before spriting for higher ones.

Other than that I've been enjoying the Tears a lot. The absorption system was quite intuitive once I learned to tell the different levels apart (by the way, the size on rooted tears could use a reduction - overlap is a problem).

The truth is:
+ I'm not an artist so I made do with my poor skills
+ I didn't want the Rooted Tears to be too squared, but I did want no space between tiles, so I intended overlap. If someone can help me with the graphics for that part, he/she is welcome !

I like marching around through forests and digesting them. The hunt for every possible feature with the hero is fun and gives me a reason to go exploring.

Lastly, on to the bugs. So far I've only found one, but it's serious. Upon upgrading to patch 0.1.7 I get a python error every turn (screenshot attached). It stops war declarations from happening, among probably other things.

Solved this time, check v0.1.8

 

[Rickie_Rain]

On the city topic I was thinking a very slight touch of blue to the green. Weak turqoise is still fairly blobby color IMO.

Savegame uploaed to http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5PH8NMOA,however I might aswell say I noticed I have 3 Deep Rooting available, but I cant click the ritual. Might be something with that 3 thing though ^^

One idea on the city bit, though I don't know if this can work. The ritual unlocks a promotion that any wild or wild-based tear, but only one can take naturally. At the end of the turn, the one who had the promotion picked becomes the city. What says code-people?

 

[far_wanderer]

The cities start with a range of 2 but finish with a range of 3. It is very unlikely that much would stay inbetween cities. And I do not this it really is a problam, once you absorbed every other civs on the map

But I'll think about the Austrin thing (may be capable instead of holding a unit for several turns after creating the city to actually give the unit several turns to move before settling the city)

Upon two more playthroughs, it turns out not being able to pick a location pales in comparison as an annoyance compared to having a unit that was on an important task suddenly become a city.
What exactly was the goal in having a ritual rather than a settler unit? If I know that I may be able to come up with alternatives.

Was changed in v0.1.6.
Is it not better now ?
Go fishing to get movement increase (fluidity).

Yes, it is better. I think I was on a slightly earlier patch the first time around. And thanks for the hint about fishing, that was useful. However it's still not as good as movement on rooted tears, which means the problem I mentioned of encouraging unabsorbed land still persists.

You can actually attack with it, if it is standing on a Rooted Tear. You may also be able to attack with him when I'll do the last Tiers (and after abrosbing every possible feature on the map).

The reason I'd like to be able to attack normally is that the hero is currently the only reason to explore - and so not being able to attack or explore dungeons with it reduces the exploration incentive.

On the other hand, Digesting Tears also improve freely with every first level promotion , so you may want to check several low level techs before spriting for higher ones.

Did that. In fact, now that I understand things better, I think I spent too much time in the early techs. I simply don't play with the Hippus anymore, and it hasn't been a problem.

On a new note - I discovered why barbarians and wandering scouts are such a problem: all the Tears are Beast units. Meaning nearly every Recon unit in the game (including Goblins) gets stupidly high bonuses against them. Was that intentional?

On the city topic I was thinking a very slight touch of blue to the green. Weak turqoise is still fairly blobby color IMO.

Savegame uploaed to http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5PH8NMOA,however I might aswell say I noticed I have 3 Deep Rooting available, but I cant click the ritual. Might be something with that 3 thing though ^^

One idea on the city bit, though I don't know if this can work. The ritual unlocks a promotion that any wild or wild-based tear, but only one can take naturally. At the end of the turn, the one who had the promotion picked becomes the city. What says code-people?

I had a similar thing happen with rituals, in fact it's what killed my second two games. I don't think it's anything to do with the Tears mod - I've had rituals occasionally just stop working in the normal game too.

 

[sylvain5477]

It's so motivating to have you people play it

The intention about the ritual was to make it not so controlable as to where to settle, and it was flavor wise , and it was limiting (2 at a time). At the begining I had settler unit but is was too easy to develop.
As several problems seem to come from it, I'll think about some alternative ways of obtaining a similar result.

Any idea is welcomed of course even though I may do something different

 

[far_wanderer]

It's so motivating to have you people play it

The intention about the ritual was to make it not so controlable as to where to settle, and it was flavor wise , and it was limiting (2 at a time). At the begining I had settler unit but is was too easy to develop.
As several problems seem to come from it, I'll think about some alternative ways of obtaining a similar result.

Any idea is welcomed of course even though I may do something different

As far as not being able to choose where you settle, I kind of disagree with that premise entirely, as you may have noticed. So I can't help you there. I am quite willing to argue my point further if you're at all open to change, though.

Limitation is easy - you can just make the settler be a national unit with a limit of 1. That would open up another idea I just had, which is to then allow that settler unit to also sacrifice itself to flatten an area (like the rooted tear effect) instead of founding a city. That would help to decrease city crowding over oceans and through mountain ranges.

 

[TC01]

Interesting but it seems complex to link the two part (before and after selecting the plot).

Actually, it's not too complex at all. Would be more complex if not for the fact that the function triggered when you build a project and the function triggered when you select a plot are all in one file.

You would need to create a variable "self.bDeepRooting", maybe, and set it to false.

Then, in onProjectBuilt when you build the ritual Deep Rooting you set self.bDeepRooting to true and enable python pick plot mode.

Then, in onPlotPicked you check if self.bDeepRooting is set to true. If it is, you know that you have just completed the self.bDeepRooting ritual. So then you put your code, a city will be spawned on the plot you select. And then at the end of the function you set self.bDeepRooting to false.

Then in canPickPlot you would simply prevent someone from picking a plot if there was no unit on it.

 

[sylvain5477]

As far as not being able to choose where you settle, I kind of disagree with that premise entirely, as you may have noticed. So I can't help you there. I am quite willing to argue my point further if you're at all open to change, though.

Limitation is easy - you can just make the settler be a national unit with a limit of 1. That would open up another idea I just had, which is to then allow that settler unit to also sacrifice itself to flatten an area (like the rooted tear effect) instead of founding a city. That would help to decrease city crowding over oceans and through mountain ranges.

I like this idea
Would you explain further ?

The national unit would be a way, with a limited lifespan to help the AI forcely settle it (it would create a city on death if not before).

I'm very open to ideas.

 

[sylvain5477]

Actually, it's not too complex at all. Would be more complex if not for the fact that the function triggered when you build a project and the function triggered when you select a plot are all in one file.

You would need to create a variable "self.bDeepRooting", maybe, and set it to false.

Then, in onProjectBuilt when you build the ritual Deep Rooting you set self.bDeepRooting to true and enable python pick plot mode.

Then, in onPlotPicked you check if self.bDeepRooting is set to true. If it is, you know that you have just completed the self.bDeepRooting ritual. So then you put your code, a city will be spawned on the plot you select. And then at the end of the function you set self.bDeepRooting to false.

Then in canPickPlot you would simply prevent someone from picking a plot if there was no unit on it.

I think I will go the national unit way for the deep rooting. But I will try your way for the world spell It will be a surprise if I can make it work as expected And impressive.

 

[far_wanderer]

I like this idea
Would you explain further ?

The national unit would be a way, with a limited lifespan to help the AI forcely settle it (it would create a city on death if not before).

I'm very open to ideas.

Not a whole lot to explain as far as mechanics go. A standard settler (with tear graphics of course) unit that has, in addition to settling, the ability to sacrifice itself to flatten the surrounding terrain just like rooted tears do. Give it a national unit limit of one and you'll limit expansion speed considerably. If you want to limit expansion even further, give it a movement of only one and keep the lack of defense that settlers have, so you'll also need enough of an army to protect it. And if you add a limited lifespan, you'll also require people to clear a path through features to prevent digestive delays.

Why I suggest the flattening ability gets into one of the reasons why I'd like to be able to choose city location. A Tear city can work tiles up to three spaces away, which means it can flatten up to four. However, you can put cities at least five tiles away from each other without any uncovered space. Which means that any time you're forced to go closer than that due to water or mountains, you end up with more cities than you need. And every city means one more spot to defend and one more repetitive construction popup every few turns. If you attach the ability to the unit that also founds cities, you never have to worry about people abusing it, because a city will always be faster at flattening. The unit will only be for occasional instances to increase efficiency.

And if you still need convincing on being able to choose where cities go, here are a few more reasons:

Spoiler :

1 - The standard "why is the computer playing the game instead of me?" question. I'm fairly sure there are no points in the game where a choice is made that don't allow me to make it. There are plenty of automation options, but they are all voluntary and exist to save time rather then remove choice.
2 - Cross purposes. Cities want to be founded where it is safe, units want to be on patrol where it is not. If my units have left the borders of my city, it is either to keep enemy troops away from my cities or to explore, and in neither case do I want my unit to disappear or a new city to appear.
3 - The AI is fallible. Unless a human player just isn't paying attention, any decision the AI makes that is different than what the human player would have done will be wrong by their standards. And any time your own civilization does something wrong it causes anger. And as a modder, you don't want anger directed at your own creation.
4 - Cities do better with planning. Defense, clearing the surrounding area of enemies, and even a little advance terrain improvement all help make sure a new city isn't wasting it's first 20-30 turns. None of those can be done if the city location is unknown.

 

[sylvain5477]

Convinced Stop hurting me
I've be thinking a lot about it and now I start implementation.

It should not take so long

 

[sylvain5477]

v0.1.9 released.
The mecanic for founding cities has evolve from a ritual to a unit whose cost double per livving such unit.

 

[Rickie_Rain]

Hiya! Game has become more enjoyable with the updates IMO but there are still concerns and ideas to be slapped on Mr.Dev. The city tear color is much approved, the movement fix on Dry Tears also makes much sense and helps for domestic mobility.
I shall also agree to far_wanderers argumentation and say that I am very pleased with the way one builds cities now. Just one thought however. The cost is limited by active units, not by units in production, and this allows for multiple Loves to be produced without penalty. Perhaps make them national units to cap expansion this way?

Info update on warmonger, I dont get automatic war at once, I am given the peace/war dialogue when meeting a civ the first time.

Options and Progression. Both are key values for most things gaming to be enjoyed these days, and I feel you might want to expand a little on these. I suggest giving a tier 1/2 tech a new unit (Lust?) to be based off Wild to provide an offensive option earlier on. This must come with sacrifice so it should be a 3/1 with no defense capacity. Thoughts?
Furthermore I feel that research is a bit wonky as it requires expansion, however the basic concept of the civ (as I understood at least) is that it progresses through chewing up the world, and with this I wonder if there perhaps should be a small research percentage based on city production. A mere 5 or 10% would increase the smoothness, because while expansion is what the civ is about, its not always quite possible, and to gain progress from warfare early on, you sort of need the enemy to attack you.
Also, I think you should move Tear bridges from tech to Fishing (so it comes with Fluidity).

*continues consumption of world*

Update of thought: It is somewhat silly that Digesting Tears take defense instead of Wilds. Poke this?
Update of silly: There is still unit support cost. Another thought on the Lust tear idea. If you want to make sure they <have> to be offensive, give em an inherit promotion that causes them to be favoured defenders. This would make them the ideal "home cleaning crew", and require a bit more tech, zerging and whatnot to use as actual assault tears.
Typo detected: For Root Tear, says reduces movement cost to 1/60.

Update of thought: I've noticed that expansion speeds up quite decently after a while, and as soon as I hit T3 units, warfare does aswell. An idea for limiting expansion and making the life extension techs more valuable to cities making organized tears to assist newer cities would be to increase their cost progressively. Something alone the lines of 5-10-15 hammers more for each tech tier, mayhaps?

Update of thought: There should be no Armageddon Counter modification when DT destroys cities or loses cities. Dunno if this is already in effect.

 

[FireBlaze]

Also, It'd be nice to have something on techs telling you what they give more specifically. Not a big fan of hidden modifiers, and also not a fan of very empty tech screens.

 

[sylvain5477]

Hiya! Game has become more enjoyable with the updates IMO but there are still concerns and ideas to be slapped on Mr.Dev. The city tear color is much approved, the movement fix on Dry Tears also makes much sense and helps for domestic mobility.
I shall also agree to far_wanderers argumentation and say that I am very pleased with the way one builds cities now.

Good. A Pleased customer is a lifelong customer !

Just one thought however. The cost is limited by active units, not by units in production, and this allows for multiple Loves to be produced without penalty. Perhaps make them national units to cap expansion this way?

I was planning a limit of 2, but wanted to tried this unused option just to give it a try !
Guess I'll go back to national limit of 2.

Info update on warmonger, I dont get automatic war at once, I am given the peace/war dialogue when meeting a civ the first time.

This is a temporary side effect of the bug salvation with Aggressiv IA when I would declare war on first turen it seems. I have a way to go round it but haven't implemented it yet.

Options and Progression. Both are key values for most things gaming to be enjoyed these days, and I feel you might want to expand a little on these. I suggest giving a tier 1/2 tech a new unit (Lust?) to be based off Wild to provide an offensive option earlier on. This must come with sacrifice so it should be a 3/1 with no defense capacity. Thoughts?

Have you tried the Jealousy ?

Furthermore I feel that research is a bit wonky as it requires expansion, however the basic concept of the civ (as I understood at least) is that it progresses through chewing up the world, and with this I wonder if there perhaps should be a small research percentage based on city production. A mere 5 or 10% would increase the smoothness, because while expansion is what the civ is about, its not always quite possible, and to gain progress from warfare early on, you sort of need the enemy to attack you.

I can try this. I'll give it a try and we can see whether it smoothes things over. I agree you may sometimes ran in a wall on tech and so be left behind.

Also, I think you should move Tear bridges from tech to Fishing (so it comes with Fluidity).

Not sure whether this is possible.
Ideally it should simply come from Tear Symbiosis from the start.

*continues consumption of world*

Bon appetit !

Update of thought: It is somewhat silly that Digesting Tears take defense instead of Wilds. Poke this?

I do not understand. For me Wilds defend before Digesting.

Update of silly: There is still unit support cost. Another thought on the Lust tear idea. If you want to make sure they <have> to be offensive, give em an inherit promotion that causes them to be favoured defenders. This would make them the ideal "home cleaning crew", and require a bit more tech, zerging and whatnot to use as actual assault tears.

Now you lost me

Typo detected: For Root Tear, says reduces movement cost to 1/60.

No, it's the truth
Try going fast with horses on dry roots you'll see.

Update of thought: I've noticed that expansion speeds up quite decently after a while, and as soon as I hit T3 units, warfare does aswell. An idea for limiting expansion and making the life extension techs more valuable to cities making organized tears to assist newer cities would be to increase their cost progressively. Something alone the lines of 5-10-15 hammers more for each tech tier, mayhaps?

Actually I have a mecanic in the drawer (not yet released) about production modifier when building organized tears making their cost increases the more you have them. I was waiting because I was not completely satisphied with the implementation, but i'll do something about it later.

Update of thought: There should be no Armageddon Counter modification when DT destroys cities or loses cities. Dunno if this is already in effect.

Indeed, but I'll do it later (not so important as the rest ).

Also, It'd be nice to have something on techs telling you what they give more specifically. Not a big fan of hidden modifiers, and also not a fan of very empty tech screens.

I did for Organized Tear life extension through a dummy promotion which is actually done in python instead, but now appears in the Tech tree. (have you seen it?)
I'll add the rest once the bugs are settled but i cannot agree more. The pedia once written should also help.

 

[WarKirby]

+ kalshnek bug (jungle for ever)

Just wanted to mention this. The permanant jungle around mt kalshekk is not a bug, but an intended feature, although one I dislike. It has something in it's xml or possibly python, that forces there to always be a jungle there, and replaces it as soon as you cut it down.

The intended effect is that the feature should be a health hazard, although I find that odd because volcanoes are known for their rich soil

 

[WarKirby]

nevermind, I got it working.

So now, I have one unit. No settlers or cities of any sort. What am I supposed to do ?


I ate a forest, which didn't help much. then met the khazad, who I apparently made peace with. What happened to permanant war ?