AbsintheRed
Deity
True, they were very important in the 17-18th century
Historically one of the top candidates, I agree
But from a gameplay perspective, IMO they are still among the poorer options of the civs in the poll (if not the single poorest)
New civs for RFCE 1.2
- Thread starter AbsintheRed
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True, they were very important in the 17-18th century
Historically one of the top candidates, I agree
But from a gameplay perspective, IMO they are still among the poorer options of the civs in the poll (if not the single poorest)
Here are the civilizations I chose to vote for:
Prussia: For reasons I have already explained, most notably its status as a major power.
Novgorod Republic: I voted for Novgorod both for its historical importance and because, since Prussia and the Teutonic Order are to be represented together, they need a opposing power in the region.
Morocco: North Africa needs additional civilizations.
Aragon: Aragon is important both historically and for gameplay reasons, I think. NOTE: However, if Aragon is included, some sort of peaceful union mechanic between Spain and Aragon needs to be implemented, at least as an optional event.
Scotland: England currently has free reign over the British isles. While on the original RFC's scale, that option had to suffice, on this scale I see no reason for Scotland not to be present. I also think it would both be fun to play as the Scots as well as make playing as England more fun.
Split the Norse into Dennmark and Norway: I voted for this initially because I feel it better reflects history and would work in terms of gameplay, but after thinking on it a bit more, I feel it maybe could wait until 2.0.
Please note that I think all ten of the civs open for voting would work well and would make great additions to the mod-- I merely think these have higher priority.
On the subject of Prussia, could you explain how they are among the poorest options for me? I don't think space is the issue, especially considering their affinity for conquest.
Prussia: For reasons I have already explained, most notably its status as a major power.
Novgorod Republic: I voted for Novgorod both for its historical importance and because, since Prussia and the Teutonic Order are to be represented together, they need a opposing power in the region.
Morocco: North Africa needs additional civilizations.
Aragon: Aragon is important both historically and for gameplay reasons, I think. NOTE: However, if Aragon is included, some sort of peaceful union mechanic between Spain and Aragon needs to be implemented, at least as an optional event.
Scotland: England currently has free reign over the British isles. While on the original RFC's scale, that option had to suffice, on this scale I see no reason for Scotland not to be present. I also think it would both be fun to play as the Scots as well as make playing as England more fun.
Split the Norse into Dennmark and Norway: I voted for this initially because I feel it better reflects history and would work in terms of gameplay, but after thinking on it a bit more, I feel it maybe could wait until 2.0.
Please note that I think all ten of the civs open for voting would work well and would make great additions to the mod-- I merely think these have higher priority.
On the subject of Prussia, could you explain how they are among the poorest options for me? I don't think space is the issue, especially considering their affinity for conquest.
I voted for Novgorod, TO and Scotland. I think all of the civs should be included, but that needs RFCE 2.0 working.
All African civs should be included (lots of Free Space, counter or vassals to Ottomans). Denmark and Norway may wait (but rethinking their UHVs might be needed, if we want the Norse to be played further).
Aragon, Sicily and Tunisia are nice to add, but the three added together might break the balance, and make all 3 easy targets for their hungry neighbors (Spain, Genoa and Morocco).
So my votes were for the 3 I wanted first:
TO/Prussia has already been largely debated, so adding it would please all who have been researching and debating about it, and the material we already have is at least bigger then everyone else.
Novgorod is a must IMO, lots of empty space and a counter to Muscovy (as it really needs one). And that Nevsky LH will fit perfectly as...... Nevsky
.
Scotland will counter England (or finally make it become Super England), the only nation in RFCE that keeps losing 1/4 - 1/3 of its own territory over and over again to that minor revolution mechanic. Once I've seen Germany taking Scotland because England wasn't fast enough to reconquer it (I think they might get tired). Actually in most of my late games, Europe is battling Europe, and England says it's part of someone's alliance, but in truth it's just waiting for the next Scottish rebellion.
And I hope that after the inclusion of Novgorod, an earlier Sweden and the Crimean Khanate, we may start thinking on those Eastern Steppe Colonies to give the Eastern powers a chance of competing for more space out of Europe (instead of awarding Muscovy all the goodies concentrated in its eastern border).
All African civs should be included (lots of Free Space, counter or vassals to Ottomans). Denmark and Norway may wait (but rethinking their UHVs might be needed, if we want the Norse to be played further).
Aragon, Sicily and Tunisia are nice to add, but the three added together might break the balance, and make all 3 easy targets for their hungry neighbors (Spain, Genoa and Morocco).
So my votes were for the 3 I wanted first:
TO/Prussia has already been largely debated, so adding it would please all who have been researching and debating about it, and the material we already have is at least bigger then everyone else.
Novgorod is a must IMO, lots of empty space and a counter to Muscovy (as it really needs one). And that Nevsky LH will fit perfectly as...... Nevsky
.Scotland will counter England (or finally make it become Super England), the only nation in RFCE that keeps losing 1/4 - 1/3 of its own territory over and over again to that minor revolution mechanic. Once I've seen Germany taking Scotland because England wasn't fast enough to reconquer it (I think they might get tired). Actually in most of my late games, Europe is battling Europe, and England says it's part of someone's alliance, but in truth it's just waiting for the next Scottish rebellion.
And I hope that after the inclusion of Novgorod, an earlier Sweden and the Crimean Khanate, we may start thinking on those Eastern Steppe Colonies to give the Eastern powers a chance of competing for more space out of Europe (instead of awarding Muscovy all the goodies concentrated in its eastern border).
Well if its to be used for Aragon/Castille, unions would also apply to a lot of other countries (Austria/Hungary, Poland/Lithuania, etc). I think a predestined union is a bit historically deterministic however.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
(1) That goes for Teutonic Order, but not the Kingdom of Prussia.
(2) There's at least one crucial difference between TO and Crimea: Diplomacy. TO actively participated in diplomacy with other European states of its time, whereas Crimea was mostly "I KILL YOU" - similar to the Mongols before it. That is why Crimea is more suited as Barbs, while TO is better represented as a civ.
If Teutonic Order is not included as a civ, it should be
(A) Independents which spawn at war with Lithuania/Novgorod but not Poland, with an eastward war map, similar to how the Hussite Rebellion is in RFCE++;
or
(B) A special event for whichever Catholic civ (HRE, Poland, or Sweden) that controls most of the Baltic. This civ gets a stack of Teutonic Knights (possibly as Mercenaries), and an alternative Crusade goal (based on the existing Crusade mechanics, but targets Vilnius, Pskov, and Novgorod).
Completing this Northern Crusade counts as completing one of your UHVs.
Maybe there should just be a general personal union system where any two countries have the potential to form a union. This allows for historical unions but also for ahistorical unions (Isabella's father wanted her to marry into Portugal instead of Aragon but this never happened).
CrossRFC
Emperor
- Joined
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I'm not going to list by personal preference, but rather by impact on gameplay, notably by forcing players to adopt new tactics, deal with less easily crushed independents, etc.
Prussia/TO : Germany is boring! Spice it up the monotone blobbing of the HRE with some more Germans! The TO also brings life to the Baltic, which is a dreadfully uneventful area.
Novgorod: We add more diversity to Russia, and give Moscovy an actual AI opponent because, like in the Baltic, being alone in Russia is not very fun.
Aragon: uniting Spain should not be so easy! Most regions have a conflict like Byzantines/Ottomans or Franks/Burgundians. While there is an islamic presence in Spain, it dies off. Aragon is the next challenge. Also, a game as the Aragonese, oriented towards domination of the Western Mediterranean (as well as in the East), is a refreshing change of pace.
Either of Morocco or Tunisia: too many independents in North Africa!
Crimea: I do agree with many other posters in this respect: Crimea needs some life breathed into it.
Another candidate, not listed, would be Serbia. Balkanise the Balkans!
All the other candidates would be very good too, but they can wait for a later version.
Prussia/TO : Germany is boring! Spice it up the monotone blobbing of the HRE with some more Germans! The TO also brings life to the Baltic, which is a dreadfully uneventful area.
Novgorod: We add more diversity to Russia, and give Moscovy an actual AI opponent because, like in the Baltic, being alone in Russia is not very fun.
Aragon: uniting Spain should not be so easy! Most regions have a conflict like Byzantines/Ottomans or Franks/Burgundians. While there is an islamic presence in Spain, it dies off. Aragon is the next challenge. Also, a game as the Aragonese, oriented towards domination of the Western Mediterranean (as well as in the East), is a refreshing change of pace.
Either of Morocco or Tunisia: too many independents in North Africa!
Crimea: I do agree with many other posters in this respect: Crimea needs some life breathed into it.
Another candidate, not listed, would be Serbia. Balkanise the Balkans!
All the other candidates would be very good too, but they can wait for a later version.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Alright, after 38 votes:
1. Aragon - 32
2. Novgorod - 31
3. Morocco - 29
4. TO/Prussia 23
4. Scotland - 23
6. Crimea - 22
7. Sicily - 18
8. Egypt - 17
8. Tunesia - 17
10. Denmark/Norway - 16
1. Aragon - 32
2. Novgorod - 31
3. Morocco - 29
4. TO/Prussia 23
4. Scotland - 23
6. Crimea - 22
7. Sicily - 18
8. Egypt - 17
8. Tunesia - 17
10. Denmark/Norway - 16
It may come off as biased but currently there is only a single Balkan state. Bulgaria. This is too weird as there were many states there but we should at least attempt to add one more. That's why I would support the inclusion of Serbia.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Serbia is in RFCE++, and will definitely make it into 2.0
But for my taste there isn't enough space for them on the current map
So don't hold your breath for them in the 1.x series
But for my taste there isn't enough space for them on the current map
So don't hold your breath for them in the 1.x series
AbsintheRed
Deity
With Scotland added we finally have something to make the english more challenging, for the player and for the AI.
The player will have to face a full civ on its northern borders, a lot harder then the current situation.
The AI will finally be able to become a threat. With the respawns of indy Scots, England is reduced to a tech/wonder leader, but not a military one. Getting rid of full Scotland Civ, England will be able to consolidate its power and finally make some incursions in Europe.
The player will have to face a full civ on its northern borders, a lot harder then the current situation.
The AI will finally be able to become a threat. With the respawns of indy Scots, England is reduced to a tech/wonder leader, but not a military one. Getting rid of full Scotland Civ, England will be able to consolidate its power and finally make some incursions in Europe.
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