New Game- random leader:Roosevelt

[Jastrow]

Joe,

to be clear, what is happeing here is that you are getting advice from many players, all of whom can beat nobel (and several levels higher) while drunk and asleep. They are arguing about which is the fastest/most efficient way to win this map. Following any of their advice will get you a win, because for us, we can make any plan work at noble...

What Lymond is trying to do is get you a good foundation... The methods he is proposaing are NOT optimal in terms of fastest/most efficient/highest score, etc... Lymond would certainly agree to this himself.

Instead, he is taking a pedogogical approach, and trying to get you to learn and appreciate sound empire management and basic warring (that will come) techniques.

Based on what I have read from you in other treads, I am STRONGLY of the opinion that Lymonds appraoch is the correct for you right now! Perhaps, after you have finished this game once ala Lymond, you could play it again a second, and 3rd time... Try a warrior rush, or a pyramid, etc... See how much easier the game is.

Doing it that way will give you a better appreciation of how powerful these methods can indeed be (under the right map conditions). You will have a much better apprciation of this, with a solid graps of the basics already in place.

 

[dankok8]

Just a heads up.

Building the Pyramids when you're not Industrious and don't have Stone either is a huge gamble on Monarch and above. And generally not worth the opportunity cost considering the time wasted on producing them. Of course if your capital has great production + many forests to chop then it could work. And it may be worthwhile if you're Philosophical or you plan to run a Specialist Economy.

However SE is way too advanced for a Noble player and requires a ton of micromanagement. That's the reason I don't advocate that Joe builds the Pyramids despite the nearby stone and Noble difficulty. He won't be able to leverage them. And Shaka has no synergies whatsoever.

Noble is about learning the fundamentals so the comments adamantly opposing wonders in general may have merit to them.

Settle the Gold, beeline Bronze Working, hookup the copper and axerush Kublai with about 10 axemen. Whip/chop to produce them faster. Build Ikhandas because they reduce maintenance and make your melee units stronger. Prioritize Currency and Code of Laws to help your economy. Target 8-10 cities by 1 AD. On Noble 12+ is not unrealistic either. Generally keep the capitals and cities with resources or wonders and raze the rest of the crap.

And don't restart and try the Warrior rush. That's a strategy that's useless on Monarch+ (unless you're Inca) since the AI starts with Archery. And it doesn't teach you the game but just exploits the AI. It requires no skill whatsoever.

An axemen rush while almost as effective does require nearby metal, works better on non-protective opponents, may not be worth it if the enemy is far away, may fail if the enemy masses chariots and you don't bring a spearman etc etc.

 

[MarigoldRan]

This map has stone. Use it.

And who cares about a "pedagogical approach?" Win this map, then play another one, and beat that too. Lymond's approach is not correct because it's not working for you. You have stone. Get the Pyramids, build a ton of impis, and kill people.

And do the warrior rush later to learn the important lesson: Noble is easy. Build a ton of units in early game = auto-win.

After that, choose and play the Incans... and warrior rush your way to victory too even AT the higher levels. Learn all the short, easy, and cheap ways of winning games, such as for example playing the Romans and building praetorians. After that you can work on a more generalistic approach. Why do things the hard way, when you can do it the easy way?

 

[pigswill]

The most fundamental advice at any level is play the map. If you have nearby stone then building Pyramids is making use of a particular map.

On the other hand it could be argued that building pyramids and running representation won't teach you much about building and maintaining an empire without pyramids.

Both arguments are sound. Take your pick.

 

[Fippy]

No at least iam not arguing about the fastest way of winning, cos that's totally not the point here.
I mentioned Pyramids cos they are a very strong play on several map types and situations, and learning to use them would not only be good for..winning here.
They would help Joe becoming a better player, by understanding Rep. and Specialists.

 

[Jastrow]

This will me by last comment for a while (because I am travelling, not because I am dumping the thread).... But, have those of you arguing against the "Lymond approach" been following Joe's devellopement in his previous few treads to realize where is problems lie?

 

[Fippy]

I'm friends with Lymond and he knows how to take my comments anyways..
i also mentioned later that Joe should follow Lymo for now, but this discussion was healthy if he tries understanding anyways.

 

[MarigoldRan]

He's indecisive and he doesn't think things through well on his own.

He also never learned the concept of "build a crap-ton of units with slavery and chopping forests and kill people". If he learns this concept even Emperor is easy. Instead of focusing on econ, he should focus on military, with the econ for the sole purpose of sustaining the military drive.

 

[lymond]

Thanks, jastrow. You are exactly on point with my logic here.

 

[Patchface]

Choosing Civics and running specs is part of empire management. IOW: OP can do both - build Mids and get empire management tips, if he wants.

 

[Gwynnja]

learn the important lesson: Noble is easy. Build a ton of units in early game = auto-win.

This is true. But you don't need the Mids to do this on noble. All you really need is currency and metal.

 

[MarigoldRan]

This is true. But you don't need the Mids to do this on noble. All you really need is currency and metal.

Yes, but by that logic you may as well just warrior rush. You can probably beat this WITHOUT currency or metal.

 

[shadojack]

Stick with Lymond or Fippy. Both are excellent players and will not steer you wrong. "Warrior rush" is such a newbie move and does not sustain more advance play. Ignore it.

 

[joe6778]

Spoiler :

Settled 2N of gold. Researched TW now on Mysticism.

Building a warrior at my 2nd city. Discovered copper next to my 1st city. Two workers working. My warriors were too far away to escort my settler, so I lost four turns establishing 2nd city.

Building another settler to settle 1S of the lake.

BTW- CIV version 317

 

[Packers5280]

You need to connect your cities asap. Ideally, you need to place a road down to where you want to settle before the settler comes out. Trade routes can very important. KKhan is creative, so you want to get the settler out right away if you want that spot.

I would do some more exploring with your warriors to find the other AI. You have 1-2 to spare to find them. More AI means more trading partners when one discovers alpha, although you are more likely to discover it at this level.

If the spot you want to settle is close, you don't need to have an escort. It would be ideal, but not always necessary.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Make your second city work the pigs.

Your capital has FIVE improvements, but only 4 population. It means that right now one of your improvements is not being used. Won't matter as much later on, but at the current early stage every improvement should be used. You're Expansive so get Pottery for granaries soon, probably after Myst.

At higher difficulties you should grab the Stone City first BEFORE the gold city. It's closer to the enemy, which means that if you don't grab it they probably will. At Noble it doesn't matter.

Build workers after the settler in your capital. What else can it do?

And no, you should learn to warrior rush and the worker steal, and the choke. A large number of Hall of Fame games start that way, with the Incans. It'll also teach you how incredibly easy it is to win at Noble and why the Incans are considered over-powered.

EDIT: At Noble, there's no reason to trade with the AI. They don't have much to trade. Skip Alphabet and kill them instead. Note how he's already in the lead on the power chart.

EDIT 2: Get your copper hooked up and build two impis from your capital. Then move them onto Mongol territory, steal a worker and fortify them on a hill next to their capital. This IS a high-level strategy. It's called the worker steal and the choke, and absolutely devastating at Noble, especially with the Zulus. For the cost of having to build two early impis (which are useful anyways), you can stop your neighbor from expanding.

 

[enKage]

How many of you have made an effort to read the whole thread?
You would see that joe has problems with basics! And we are trying to teach him how to play most games, dependless of special features like stones nearby. Going mids will not make him understand basic, and he will not be able to repeat it and practice next game if start will be without stones.

So I am very glad joe chose to settle commerce city before as he has already improved tiles to work.


@joe
I mentioned you should go mistycism to bring gold online, but now i doubt if pottery first wouldn,t be better - you will have mist in 5 turns, 2 to build monument and another 10 to borderpop. It is actuallt time to develop 1 cottage intio hamlet. @lymond?

Personally I will go for 3rd worker now and then a settler (you have copper improved so it gives huge bonus to worker production for expansive leaders. Just remember to switch pigs into grasshill mine while building worker and let your 2nd city work pigs.

Stone city I would rather place 1S from cows - it is on hills (important in border cities) and also has 1 floodplain to help develop cottage. You would have mysticism by that time, so I would not be worried about not having rice in first ring. Another pros: lower maintanace (closer to palace) and not leaving a belt of tiles which will never be used (what if secret resource is there?)

 

[joe6778]

How many of you have made an effort to read the whole thread?
You would see that joe has problems with basics! And we are trying to teach him how to play most games, dependless of special features like stones nearby. Going mids will not make him understand basic, and he will not be able to repeat it and practice next game if start will be without stones.

So I am very glad joe chose to settle commerce city before as he has already improved tiles to work.


@joe
I mentioned you should go mistycism to bring gold online, but now i doubt if pottery first wouldn,t be better - you will have mist in 5 turns, 2 to build monument and another 10 to borderpop. It is actuallt time to develop 1 cottage intio hamlet. @lymond?

Personally I will go for 3rd worker now and then a settler (you have copper improved so it gives huge bonus to worker production for expansive leaders. Just remember to switch pigs into grasshill mine while building worker and let your 2nd city work pigs.

Stone city I would rather place 1S from cows - it is on hills (important in border cities) and also has 1 floodplain to help develop cottage. You would have mysticism by that time, so I would not be worried about not having rice in first ring. Another pros: lower maintanace (closer to palace) and not leaving a belt of tiles which will never be used (what if secret resource is there?)

Thanks. I was basically trying to follow Lymond's original direction with my first few actions. Once I build my third city and get stone, I'm not sure how to proceed. Build pyramid? Rush build to take out the Mongols?

I was planning on Myst>POT>writing>alphabet.

 

[dankok8]

Dude you have Copper in your capital and a close neighbour. An axerush is honestly a very optimal play here. After you send 8-10 axes Kublai's way (aim for no later than 1000 BC) you probably can even build the Pyramids still if you really want to as long as you hook up the Stone.

So basically gear for war!

 

[joe6778]

Spoiler :

I hope I didn't jump ahead too far: it's turn 50. I only have 3 cities.

I'm researching masonry for the stone and then I'll research writing.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. Do I build Impis or axemen now that I have copper? I think axemen are better but Impis are my UU. Or should I build Pyramid or granaries and libraries? Should I let my cities grow or should I be aggressive and try to wipe out Khan early? This is where I usually fumble the early game because I try to do a little of everything.

It looks like I'm going to get a lot of commerce from my 2nd city with the gold and floodplains.

There are a lot of options and I've gotten a lot of conflicting suggestions.