New Game- random leader:Roosevelt

[UnforcedError]

Joe, please reload your T2440 save you posted earlier (everything was fine until that point) but the T50 save already looks much less promising. Please don't play until you got serious advice. This is not about rushing, this is about learning the basics of the game.

The problems with your last save: as you can see your second city is working unimproved tiles which is unnecessary as you had a worker there in the previous save. The monument is still not done even though it should have been chopped and whipped at the moment Mysticism was in. You whipped away 2 high hammer tiles in your cap which isn't optimal (significant hammer loss compared to a whip without a granary). There are also two redundant roads in your game. (Quiz question: which ones?)

So reaload the 2440 BC save and do this:
1. Let your second city work the pig. (Open the city screen and click on the greyed out pig tile. The pig will now be visible. Click on it again to start working that tile (the white circle will now move to the pig).)

2. Keep teching Mysticism and try to time the chop in the second city so that it can immediately go into the monument.

3. Keep building the settler in the cap normally on the food and the three high hammer tiles.

Stop as soon as the monument is chopped. Don't play on, please.

 

[bernds]

You didn't follow the advice you were given. Ulundi has five improved tiles, and is working three of them, letting two go to waste. uMgungundlovu could share two of them (pigs & copper), but is working three unimproved tiles instead.

These things matter, and they are holding you back. If you think that this is a harmless mistake, you need to eliminate this sort of thinking. You need to get to the point where looking at a situation like this is painful to you.

Also, I think uMgungundlovu should have whipped the monument earlier (at size 2), so you probably did jump ahead too far. You want to get at the gold at the soonest possible time, so you need the culture from the monument. (If you work the copper now it'll be done in two turns so that's probably better than whipping).

 

[MarigoldRan]

At Noble an impi rush is better.

Get the stone city, and build Pyramids. Then mass impis.

Um, you should have granaries by now. In all of your cities. You're expansive, right? But yes, you played too fast. Go back to 2440 BC.

[Loaded your game. Yes. You messed up. WHY DO ALL YOUR CITIES NOT HAVE GRANARIES? ONCE YOU GET POTTERY, IMMEDIATELY BUILD GRANARIES IN ALL YOUR CITIES, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU'RE EXPANSIVE. IN FACT, WHIP THEM OUT (though put 1 turn into production of granaries first before whipping) OR CHOP A FOREST OR TWO TO GET THEM UP ASAP.]

(Sorry for caps, but this is important point. Slavery works much better with granaries. The way granaries work is they help grow your population much faster, which is kinda important in the early game since the entire point of early game is to get as much population as possible and then convert that population into military through slavery)

Since you're the Zulus, build an Ikhanda in every single one of your cities too. AFTER you build the granaries.

(It appears you have built every single building/unit EXCEPT the important one).

 

[lymond]

Joe - I'm just going to throw in a couple of things to think about as you have received good advice above. You definitely should play this over. ( and listen to the advice other than early rushing the AI right now...that is what this is about)

1) I want you to start REALLY thinking about Slavery and the huge benefit. Start thinking about hammers from FOOD and normal hammers. Think about whip overflow hammers. Actually look inside your city at the production bar and note what is happening. Think

2) So you settled Umugumma 20 turns ago and started an monument. New city takes 8 turns to grow on a 3F tile. On 9th turn you can 1 pop whip the monument. A turn or so ago you would have had your border pop and start mining your Gold for both commerce boost and happy boost. At your current pace you will not get a border pop for at least 20 more turns. That's 40 turns this city has been building a single building and 40 turns you don't have gold.

40 TURNS IS HUUUUGE in this game. Whip that monument immediately. An alternative approach is to work a 2H or more tile (or share copper) while chopping a forest next to the city. You will have your border pop in like 13 turns or less.

THESE are the types of things that make a huge impact your game. You are always 100 turns behind or more in everything and this is the reason why. Umugumma should have a monument a granary already and a border pop. Otherwise your cities are just useless forever.

3) And yet if I see correctly you 1 popped whipped an axeman for absolutely no logical reason whatsoever. Please explain your logic in doing that. Ulundi is a fantastical productive city right now at size 5, yet you are at size 3. It's fine with a granary to 3 pop whip settlers at size 6, but don't just 1 pop a unit for absolutely no reason. There's no benefit in that at all.

Whipping is important but whip wisely. I'll post up a little primer on whipping and overflow soon, once I find it. You really need to learn and practice it. It is KEY to this game.

4) Think about the bonuses of your traits. I assume you are already aware that the Granary is unarguably the most important building of the game. Expansive gives a huge bonus to production of Granaries. You can quick whip them immediately or chop them out super fast. EXP is a really nice trait. To top it off you get a bonus on the most important unit in the game - the worker. Think about these things.

For now, don't concern yourself too much with armies. Just make sure you have 1 MP in each city. An Axe or Impi roaming around is nice for barb protection and spawnbusting, especiallyh new city sites.

Don't just start amassing tons of units unless you plan to use them

(Yeah, and Ikhanda's are a nice building to get up early after granaries as they are like mini-courthouses. AND Shaka gets a bonus to production of the Ikhanda due to his AGG trait. It can be quick whipped or chop immediately. One of the few cases of synergy between leader trait and UB)

As for 1-pop whipping, try to keep it mainly to things like Monuments (which can only ever be 1 popped) or boosted granaries or UBs like Ikhanda. Otherwise try to 2pop whip or 3pop whip things, like units, workers, and settlers.

----I know you've received a lot of varying advice, sometimes conflicting, but to make it easier try to focus on things related to empire building/managment for now. And ask questions. If you are staring at a building in one of your cities for 50 turns you know something is terribly terribly wrong.

 

[bernds]

Joe, if you're confused about all the conflicting viewpoints here, I'll also recommend you stick to lymond's advice for now (and maybe replay the game later following suggestions from MarigoldRan and others). What lymond is trying to teach you are very basic fundamentals that will be valuable in every game. Suggestions like building Pyramids or doing a <insert unit>-rush are questions of strategy and playing the map, which are also important - but to execute them well I think you first need a better grasp of the underlying game mechanics.

 

[MeowZeDung]

There are already 3-4 different lines of reasoning being thrust at you op, but I will go ahead and also recommend you listen to Lymond rather than the others at this point.

Also, as a player who has gone through the long slog from Noble to Immortal, I can not recommend enough that you replay a map over and over with intentional goals set. For example, play from 4000bc to 2000bc and see how many cities, workers, and warriors/defensive units you have. Then do it again, taking heed of the advice you are getting (especially Lymond's slavery advice!) and try to have more cities, workers, and warriors/defense than before. I would do this around 10 times on a map until I could consistently reach 3 cities by 2000 B.C. Eventually you will find that 4 cities by 2000bc isn't that hard. Ofcourse, this is situational (sometimes you don't WANT to expand past 2-3 cities for various reasons), but for where you are at now getting a sizable empire in the early game is huge.

 

[Fippy]

I still say, Noble and similar difficulties are one of the biggest "problems"
Why should Joe be tempted to focus on thoughts and turns, if he sees AIs with 1 city still that he could take out with 2 Axes or Impis now.

Learning games would be much more efficient if there's some feeling of danger, or at least challenge, and then he also would wait more and follow advice better.

 

[joe6778]

Joe - I'm just going to throw in a couple of things to think about as you have received good advice above. You definitely should play this over. ( and listen to the advice other than early rushing the AI right now...that is what this is about)

1) I want you to start REALLY thinking about Slavery and the huge benefit. Start thinking about hammers from FOOD and normal hammers. Think about whip overflow hammers. Actually look inside your city at the production bar and note what is happening. Think

2) So you settled Umugumma 20 turns ago and started an monument. New city takes 8 turns to grow on a 3F tile. On 9th turn you can 1 pop whip the monument. A turn or so ago you would have had your border pop and start mining your Gold for both commerce boost and happy boost. At your current pace you will not get a border pop for at least 20 more turns. That's 40 turns this city has been building a single building and 40 turns you don't have gold.

40 TURNS IS HUUUUGE in this game. Whip that monument immediately. An alternative approach is to work a 2H or more tile (or share copper) while chopping a forest next to the city. You will have your border pop in like 13 turns or less.

THESE are the types of things that make a huge impact your game. You are always 100 turns behind or more in everything and this is the reason why. Umugumma should have a monument a granary already and a border pop. Otherwise your cities are just useless forever.

3) And yet if I see correctly you 1 popped whipped an axeman for absolutely no logical reason whatsoever. Please explain your logic in doing that. Ulundi is a fantastical productive city right now at size 5, yet you are at size 3. It's fine with a granary to 3 pop whip settlers at size 6, but don't just 1 pop a unit for absolutely no reason. There's no benefit in that at all.

Whipping is important but whip wisely. I'll post up a little primer on whipping and overflow soon, once I find it. You really need to learn and practice it. It is KEY to this game.

4) Think about the bonuses of your traits. I assume you are already aware that the Granary is unarguably the most important building of the game. Expansive gives a huge bonus to production of Granaries. You can quick whip them immediately or chop them out super fast. EXP is a really nice trait. To top it off you get a bonus on the most important unit in the game - the worker. Think about these things.

For now, don't concern yourself too much with armies. Just make sure you have 1 MP in each city. An Axe or Impi roaming around is nice for barb protection and spawnbusting, especiallyh new city sites.

Don't just start amassing tons of units unless you plan to use them

(Yeah, and Ikhanda's are a nice building to get up early after granaries as they are like mini-courthouses. AND Shaka gets a bonus to production of the Ikhanda due to his AGG trait. It can be quick whipped or chop immediately. One of the few cases of synergy between leader trait and UB)

As for 1-pop whipping, try to keep it mainly to things like Monuments (which can only ever be 1 popped) or boosted granaries or UBs like Ikhanda. Otherwise try to 2pop whip or 3pop whip things, like units, workers, and settlers.

----I know you've received a lot of varying advice, sometimes conflicting, but to make it easier try to focus on things related to empire building/managment for now. And ask questions. If you are staring at a building in one of your cities for 50 turns you know something is terribly terribly wrong.

I was taking advice from too many folks, so I was starting to build axemen to rush Khan. Do I forget about the stone? I don't believe you suggested masonry research early.

So I guess pyramid and axeman rush is completely out. I guess I'm supposed to concentrate on building granaries and Ikhandas.

So much to follow and learn. I'm so confused my *&%$#$ head hurts.

 

[Patchface]

I would reload and plant the third city 1W. That will be an awesome city instantly.

 

[joe6778]

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I restarted and tried to correct some previous mistakes, but I'm still not sure if I got it right yet.

I met a few other civs and started three cities. There's another location NW of my stone city that looks promising, but I'll have to chop jungle, so I'm researching IW.

I'm still not sure about the mechanics/timing of whipping. I'm thinking I'll whip another settler when I finish IW.

 

[bernds]

Something isn't quite right, uMgungundlovu should have had its border pop by now (happened in 1760BC when I replayed from your BC2440 save and I'm not sure I paid enough attention for that to be optimal). You could have a gold mine completed in 1640BC. As has been said before, this kind of delay adds up over the course of the game.

What exactly went wrong is impossible to tell at this point (I suspect maybe you didn't use the pigs in uMgungungdlovu again?) - please play shorter turns, otherwise we can't really spot what's going on. This isn't about speed. If you really want learn, try playing from 2440BC up to the point where Mysticism comes in. What order did you research Writing and Masonry?

It looks like you built two more workers, which is good.

Two other issues - I'd place Nobamba one tile further west, then it won't need a Monument for the moment to reach all its resource tiles. Also, I'm not convinced that Iron Working is the thing to do next (Alpha, Maths, Aesthetics all look more interesting to me).

 

[Nials]

Binary research is good, but you banked way more gold than you need for IW. You could have started researching IW several turns ago. Right now your deficit is only -4 at 100% and IW will take 9 turns, so that means you need 4*9 = 36 banked to research it, give or take a few gold as maintenance might change.

Nobamba and uMgungundlovu should both have had a Granary by now. You need to whip them ASAP, especially with the Expansive trait where you can already do a 1-pop whip at size 2. You also have two units in both of these cities which is not really needed - use them to fogbust and explore instead.

Of positive things to note is that you're working all improved tiles and you seem to have just about the right amount of workers for now.

EDIT: Just noticed your proposed city sign to the west. Don't settle there. It's right on Kublai's border and it doesn't have food in the inner ring.

 

[UnforcedError]

Checked the save. Could you please reload again and play as it was suggested (give the pigs to uMgungundlovu as soon as the city is settled)? uMgungundlovu has only had that monument for 8 turns and it should have been in much-much earlier. Gold is important, especially in the early game. You could play until Mysticism and post the save, then we could discuss what's to be done. But please let that poor city use the pigs.

The roads look good now

Sidenote: you have plenty of great city sites that don't require IW. There's really no need to research it just to chop jungle.

 

[dankok8]

Honestly I think a lot of posters on this thread are jamming Joe's head with a lot of minor details. 5 turns later he gets to improve the Gold? So what... He will eventually learn how to optimize tiles but that's more advanced as is the Specialist Economy (SE).

Teach this guy how to fight wars successfully, recover the economy from overexpansion with Currency/COL, understand basic diplomacy, and to lay down Cottages. That will make WAY more impact than teaching a Noble player which tiles to work which turn, how to whip to maximize food to hammer conversion etc etc. Honestly I don't micromanage much at all and I catch myself making lots of trivial errors that he did (though smaller) yet I still beat Emperor.

 

[UnforcedError]

Well, I think tile sharing is basic stuff compared to SE. Also, if he can learn how to micro in the early game he will never have problems with war. Also, we will come to war. Later.

 

[joe6778]

Sorry guys, I'm just not getting it. I can't wrap my head around all the nuances of micromanaging every single chop and whip how I missed a couple of critical turns by delaying a worker building something.

I still don't have the slightest idea of what I'm doing or why. I'm just following what someone is telling me to do. Some things I get, but so much is way over my head.

Someone told me to plant my second city on the hill, now someone says 1W of the hill would be better.

The whole northern part of the map is jungle- I thought IW would help.

I still have no idea how binary research works. I'm not sure what to research, how many cities I should have and where. What if one of the civs DOWs me?

This game literally keeps me up at night.

 

[Htadus]

Hi OP. This thread is really happening and you are getting many advises. I thought instead of just advising I would jump in with a shadow game. And please allow me to share with you the reasons for doing what I did.

Planning the early game

Spoiler :

Civ: First thing to consider is the Civ you got. Zulu: Aggressive and Expansive. Great UB and a useful UU. (Impi can rush very successfully up to Monarch level and sometimes emperor.) My first buildings will be granary when available and Rax until then.

Capital placement: Settle on the PH for that 10 turn worker and the all other accelerated builds for the rest of the game. I would not consider PH to settle if I were to loose good food source. Dry corn and wet wheat/rice is a good food resource with agriculture.

First Techs: AH first for improving Pigs (and cows) for fast growth and as a bonus we get to locate horses. Second tech will be Mining for the hill to north. From there on it depends.

Play up to founding of City 2.

Spoiler :

T1: founded Capital on plains hill and started building a worker while learning AH. Scout is heading south and then went counter clockwise direction.

T11: Learned AH and start Mining. The worker is farming the wet rice. The worker sequence is improving rice, pig and cow. It emphasize food and is the least wasteful worker movements. Capital start a warrior.

T17: Mining done and it was decision time for next tech. BW or The Wheel? I chose TW for starting roads toward city 2 instead of building farms.

T18: Warrior done and another started.

T23: Start another warrior but only for 2 turns until city grow to size 4.

T25: Cow is pastured and switches build to worker (4 turns) Find 2 excellent second city sites. 1 near gold is a great commerce city and the other near stone with major production potential.

Note: I just realized that Mongols are only 12 tiles away and for an Impi it is only 6 turns without road and 3-4 with roads. This is worth considering. Hummmmmmm… So lets hope for copper nearby.

T36: 2 workers complete the road to the gold site and city 2 was founded.

Growth and Impi Rush (to turn 60)

Spoiler :

T38: BW complete, start pottary and revolt to slavery. Capital finished a Rax and start settler. I think Impi rush is a justifiable move here with copper in the BFC(big fat cross) .

T42: Whip settler to founding Stone city. Copper mine is done in 2 turns. Hammer overflow into a 2 turn worker.

Note about Rushing: This need to happen quickly. I would like to attack by T55. So I will need to whip and chop 6 impi by then. 6 units should be enough to capture a city defended by 3 archers(The most they will have this early). All the Impi's will have city raider 1.

T45: Completed Pot. Founded city 3 NW of stone and start Rax. After whipping the Rax last turn in the city 2, both cities are building Impies. Start Mysticism to be followed by Masonry.

Note: The reason I placed city 3 south of the lake is that I get to develop a very powerful production city with plenty of hammer tiles and quite soon I will place a support city between city 3 and the capital that can share food from both cities and will develop 2 plains cottages for the capital.

Note: I am going to consider building the SH in this game. Reason is that the Zulu have stone and all the cities will benefit from this 60 hammer investment (2 Monuments). If I loose the building to an AI, then I can get up to 118 failed gold for an investment of 59 hammers. It is a win-win case.

T55: my first Impi finds the second Mongolian city. 4 other impy are ready to war and 6th is enroute.

T56: I am a bit slow with units due to delayed whip in city 2. Only have 5 impi that can attack the Mongol capital next turn but oh well......here goes. Dow Mongolia.

T57: Capture Karakorum. As expected only 2 defending archers. The cost is 2 dead Impi.

T60: Capture Beshbalic for a cost of 1 Impi and killing an archer and a warrior. Mongols are gone and we also founded another city to SW of the capital with 2 food tiles and copper.

Stopping time. The stone resource is connected and capital is available to build the SH (4 turns). If we get it, I have wasted 4 turns of capital production. I am OK with that.

Time to consider next set. In the mean time here are a few saves to look at. They are Buffy saves. I hope you can open it.

 

[joe6778]

Spoiler :

Restarted. Just completed Mysticism. About to settle third city.

 

[MarigoldRan]

1. Build a granary in every single city. There are cases where you don't do that. But for now, understand: build a granary in every single city.

2. Run slavery.

3. Use slavery to whip out a crap-ton of units and kill people. But do that only AFTER you build a granary in every single city.

My advice? Learn how to war. Get 3 cities. Get a granary and an Ikhanda in every city. Whip out units.

But other than that, I totally agree with Dankok. He needs to learn how to whip out a ton of units, fight wars successfully, and then recover economically. However, to fight a successful war, you MUST have granaries in every single city.

EDIT: IW is totally useless. Do not get it unless you're the Romans.

 

[Htadus]

Sorry guys, I'm just not getting it. I can't wrap my head around all the nuances of micromanaging every single chop and whip how I missed a couple of critical turns by delaying a worker building something.First, this is a learning process and making mistakes is normal. Second, so what if you make a mistake? Just learn from it and civ on.

I still don't have the slightest idea of what I'm doing or why. I'm just following what someone is telling me to do. Some things I get, but so much is way over my head.Joe, most of these players want you to excel at Civ. But they all have their ideas of how to excel and that you will only develop with several good games under your belt. Here are a few bullet points to know about civ4.

1. Land is power: More you have it the better and your cities must be using as many of the tiles with in it.
2. Food is King: The larger the city size, more powerful it become and faster you can get bigger is best. Only food will let that happen.
3. Working unimproved tiles is not very good if no workers are improving the unimproved tile. At least 1 worker for a city is needed. More the better and whipped workers are the best. Same for Settlers about the whip.
4. Trade routes are a must.
5. Early cottages are a must to maintain high science rate in the early mid game.
6. Science slider dropping to 50 to 0% is not bad as long as it is due to number/distance of cities. Just make sure you know at least writing (for libraries and specialists) and currency and/or Alpha to get you to CoL.
   After that build Courthouses and also build Markets is commerce cities. The reason is that it help minimize the number of turns the slider stay low when needed.

Someone told me to plant my second city on the hill, now someone says 1W of the hill would be better. 1 west of the hill makes an excellent production city and gives 2 sources of food in the inner square for faster growth.

The whole northern part of the map is jungle- I thought IW would help.True. But it just happen to be a AI favorite and is quite easy to trade for. Now if there is a city site with at least 2 jungle gem tiles, then I would learn IW myself. This is all about timing. Other techs such as writing, CoL, Currency and Alpha is more critical since you are not going to be settling in the jungles for a while.

I still have no idea how binary research works.Forget about binary for the moment. In general it only save 1 bpt and if that is the problem with your game then you do not have a real problem. I'm not sure what to research Now this is very important. First techs should be decided by what is around your capital. So if the capital is covered with forest, you got to think BW is that much valuable. So just look at the map and decide where to head. So basically you need 1 or more worker techs. After that you need to get writing. Writing is the key to sustain research in the early game as the empire expand. Having or not having writing in time to build libraries to run scientists will either improve or kill your game. This is more true as the difficulty level goes up., how many cities I should have there is no number but watch your science slider for sustainable research. That mean at what percentage can you maintain science slider without going into red. and where.Usually at a site with food but also to secure resources and sometimes to block a nearby Ai from moving in your direction What if one of the civs DOWs me?It can happen but that is the reason to secure copper or horses. But in reality if you can build archers you can hold off an Ai. Just keep your power level on the Demographic screen at the middle of the bunch and you are OK. BW is a major AI DOW deterrence.

This game literally keeps me up at night.

Well you are not the only. one.......more......turn.....