New Game Speeds

[Thunderbrd]

I'm seeing the opposite, my tech cost has gone up dramatically.

Not necessarily due to the map size. Other factors are also in flux. The game speeds in particular. Many game speeds now take much longer to reach each tech (and are pretty close to keeping the builds in an equal ratio to the tech progress.)

 

[JosEPh_II]

Nice job! Maybe this'll help make some more sense of the system. It certainly seems like beelining is the only way to go.


I've given up on even trying to understand the logic after a map size malus has been introduced. Apparently, the longer the game with a bigger map, the more you have to pay for tech.

Actually the map size modifier was basically nullified. So No malus from map size now. It's all about getting the techs to be slower than production. Toffer is now in charge of "balance" and it's a new world. All that I've done in this area is now gone.

On Eternity GS it now takes ~40 turns in Preh Era to research a tech. Buildings and units take about 15 to 30 turns. Tile improvements take about~35 - 40 turns beginning of Preh Era. Example it takes a gatherer 39 turns to "gather grain" from a tile.

I spent 2 hours this morning in a New Eternity Immortal game, SVN 9945, and after 190 turn I was just starting to researching Herbalism my 6th Tech. 2 hours to get 5 tech completed. How do Eternity players stand that? What a monstrous time sink.

@SirJohnEh,

Again I want to personally Thank You for all you've done to help me. It was so very helpful. But since I'm not in charge of balancing or the Game speeds any more you can stop if you wish.

I'm seeing the opposite, my tech cost has gone up dramatically.

This is very true.

@Septimius,
Sorry man I wish I could help you. Maybe this will help. There are a couple things you can do in the GlobalDefines.xml file. Lines 989 thru 1006 allows percentage changes to Techs, units, buildings, and Projects. Use Notepad+ or regular Notepad to open the file.
These are the current settings:

       <DefineName>UNIT_PRODUCTION_PERCENT</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>100</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>100</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>UNIT_PRODUCTION_PERCENT_SM</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>90</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>PROJECT_PRODUCTION_PERCENT</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>100</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>TECH_COST_MODIFIER</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>300</iDefineIntVal>

Adjust these to achieve the balance you want to get "close to".

The last one has been changed twice now since the v38 "problem". It was 100, then went to 150, and is now at 300. You can see the consequences, which is what you are seeing and having a problem with. And as I stated above the iResearch value for Map sizes was basically "zeroed out" at the new setting of 100. Eternity used to be 200. But the new way of using the modifiers thru a new math process has changed all that.

Good Luck.

 

[Toffer90]

On Eternity GS it now takes ~40 turns in Preh Era to research a tech. Buildings and units take about 15 to 30 turns. Tile improvements take about~35 - 40 turns beginning of Preh Era. Example it takes a gatherer 39 turns to "gather grain" from a tile.

I spent 2 hours this morning in a New Eternity Immortal game, SVN 9945, and after 190 turn I was just starting to researching Herbalism my 6th Tech. 2 hours to get 5 tech completed. How do Eternity players stand that? What a monstrous time sink.

TB finally agreed with me yesterday that handicap level should not affect tech, building, and unit cost for the human player. That it should speed up AI instead of slowing down the human player when you increase difficulty.
So tech time on eternity should be, after TB change it, the same on immortal as it currently is on Noble difficulty. That is about 20 turns per tech.

 

[JosEPh_II]

TB finally agreed with me yesterday that handicap level should not affect tech, building, and unit cost for the human player. That it should speed up AI instead of slowing down the human player when you increase difficulty.
So tech time on eternity should be, after TB change it, the same on immortal as it currently is on Noble difficulty. That is about 20 turns per tech.

So this is coming in the next T-brd commit? Or from your next commit?

 

[Thunderbrd]

So this is coming in the next T-brd commit? Or from your next commit?

My next commit, soon as the SVN will behave for me.

It helps. There's a little more testing to determine some balance points. Oddly, on our Marathon game it seems the cost of buildings and units might be too stringent while on Epic, too weak. I might just be having a harder time adjusting to the mid-game change in experience of how long the achievements take in general now on Marathon. I've gotta do some testing to see from the Prehistoric if my wife's experience on Epic is as it sounds - which comes to a conclusion that we're about 10% or even 20% too fast on buildings. I'll see what I experience there in a minute here.

SVN is still borked it seems.

 

[Toffer90]

My next commit, soon as the SVN will behave for me.

I got a bunch of stuff to commit too

which comes to a conclusion that we're about 10% or even 20% too fast on buildings.

I've come to the same conclusion as well, that building cost might need roughly 20% more cost globally.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So tech time on eternity should be, after TB change it, the same on immortal as it currently is on Noble difficulty. That is about 20 turns per tech.

This can not be achieved with just adjusting the Handicap modifiers.

It helps. There's a little more testing to determine some balance points. Oddly, on our Marathon game it seems the cost of buildings and units might be too stringent while on Epic, too weak.

It's not too weak on my new Epic game. If anything still a bit too stringent. And I'm almost to Classical Era and it's taking 6 turns to research a tech like Brass working. For Epic this is about 2 turns too long. And as the Eras advance so does the turn times for each new X column.

And as I said above Eternity is a wasteful time sink. 190 turns to get 5 starting Preh Era techs researched. If I could stand it I will see what it's like by Ancient Era. As Epic and my new Snail game Both jumped the research turns by at least 33% or more.

But we await your changes.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I've come to the same conclusion as well, that building cost might need roughly 20% more cost globally.

How far have you gotten in these tests? Or is this a calculated estimate? Because again it does not bear out in my test games, Normal, Epic, Snail, and Eternity. Build times are at least 20% too long.

Look I know you are still adjusting. But does anything I post even register? Am I just "whistling in the wind"?

With the current assets/modifiers set as they are even with further adjustments do you think players will actually get to Modern Era? Or is this not a concern at all?

 

[Toffer90]

And I'm almost to Classical Era and it's taking 6 turns to research a tech like Brass working. For Epic this is about 2 turns too long.

There will be a gamespeed called "Long" between "Normal" and "Epic" after my next commit, it will cater for that need, that is around 4 turns per tech.

How far have you gotten in these tests? Or is this a calculated estimate? Because again it does not bear out in my test games, Normal, Epic, Snail, and Eternity. Build times are at least 20% too long.

I played to classical era in a normal gamespeed game and to ancient era in an eternity game. In both games I kept running out of stuff to build.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I played to classical era in a normal gamespeed game and to ancient era in an eternity game. In both games I kept running out of stuff to build.

A true symptom of research being to slow. Not build times too fast.

And I Never run out of things to build on any of the fastest 3 game speeds, ever. Eternity Yes all the time cause it's bad just plain bad.

Look can you not see, that at the settings you are striving for, that the player will not get a game into the Modern Era on any game speed? Has this even occurred to either of you? Please reconsider these awful changes you are making.

 

[Toffer90]

Look can you not see, that at the settings you are striving for, that the player will not get a game into the Modern Era on any game speed?

Why?
Is 1 tech per turn on Blitz gamespeed too slow, is 2 turns per tech on Normal gamespeed too slow?
is 4 turn per tech on Long too slow, is 6 turns per tech on epic too slow? etc.

This can not be achieved with just adjusting the Handicap modifiers.

The tech cost difference between Immortal and Noble difficulty can only be adjusted in the HandicapInfo.xml.
The tag inside handicap xml that is called iResearchPercent directly influence tech cost.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've come to the same conclusion as well, that building cost might need roughly 20% more cost globally.

I tested tonight and found even that was much too little an adjustment. I found some globals I think work very nicely and PM'd them to you. You might not see quite the same results until I get to commit the next dll though.

A true symptom of research being to slow. Not build times too fast.

It really is a tomayto-tomahto kind of thing - you can go about it either way - it just depends on what you're anchoring. The way Toffer wants to target an average amount of turns to reach a tech and base the gamespeed on that definition, you'd keep the research costs fixed and adjust the things around it. Something has to be the axis grid post or we have a floating zero point and that's impossible to work with. You made your anchor the tech as well and you anchored that tech to the calendar, which I didn't think was all that bad an idea either. But his method is to anchor not to the calendar but to the gamespeed ratio, which is something I had also advised a while back. Once that's established, then numbers like the overall globals can be adjusted until everything finds a nice perfect fit. We're zeroing in on that perfect fit pretty quickly I think. Please don't take this as a lecture, just an explanation of how the method differs a bit and how neither your method nor his is wrong, just different.

And I Never run out of things to build on any of the fastest 3 game speeds, ever. Eternity Yes all the time cause it's bad just plain bad.

I found earlier this evening in some code calculation evaluations that there's partly a reason for this nobody expected. The granularity of modifiers on the fastest speeds were often getting ignored, aka the production costs were rounding off too often and more subtle modifiers were being completely nullified. There's a way to resolve this and that's to get the base to consider a few decimal points before finally only rounding at the end of the total calculation. The balance you and I both agreed was pretty solid a while back had the construction costs much much higher. Maybe a touch too high. But I think I've found the sweet spot again. We'll have to test it and see.

Please reconsider these awful changes you are making.

I understand how gut wrenching this is for you but please reserve judgement until things begin to settle. This is the rough sandpaper stage, in some ways still the initial cut. It'll smooth out soon. As it smooths it becomes easier to make finer adjustments.

 

[raxo2222]

I guess Eternity would be sane if we multiplied production and tech globals by 0.75

   </Define>
      <DefineName>UNIT_PRODUCTION_PERCENT</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>75</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>BUILDING_PRODUCTION_PERCENT</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>75</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>UNIT_PRODUCTION_PERCENT_SM</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>67</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>PROJECT_PRODUCTION_PERCENT</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>75</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>
   <Define>
       <DefineName>TECH_COST_MODIFIER</DefineName>
       <iDefineIntVal>225</iDefineIntVal>
   </Define>

Arcs would stay proportional to each other
Otherwise for some players Eternity would be uselessly slow.
I guess if now Normal is fast enough for someone who plays hour daily and has average skill, then Eternity would be nice for someone who can play 8 hours daily.
What if we had Downscaled production costs game option?

For Prehistoric you may try playing my space map (its set as if it was Gigantic sized map) on Nightmare + Eternity.

Also I like that you are going to move modifiers from players to AI in Handicap - games won't be much slower on Nightmare than on Noble or Settler.
On Nightmare/Gigantic/Eternity I get initial costs of:
36 for Brute, 48 for Stone Thrower (12/16 turns to build)
Alpha male ad female cost 32 (16 turns to build on city foundation)
PC Klasies River Caves - world wonder costs 132 (66 turns to build on game start)
Nomadic Lifestyle costs 242 - 31 turns to research.

My city maintenance went to 1.35 dropping my research to 64% (I'm using Toffers interface overhaul)
But I found natural wonder and got 500

In 200 turns I researched 7 techs and I don't beeline at all.

 

[Usul13]

I researched the Sedentary Lifestyle in my game. It's a Snail game on Emperor difficulty and on a Huge mapsize. My leader is Lincoln who has Scientific trait which gives a nice research bonus. I am on a big continent with 4 AI empires. My starting area is mediocre at the start but it has some good resources so it is a good place in the long run. My capital is next to a river but there is no cave. My strongest production tile gives 2 hammers at the start.

Originally I started it on SVN 9942 if I remember correctly. Because the AI changes I decided to restart the same game with the 9946 version. In my first play I was somewhere in the middle of the Prehistoric Era when I restarted. I researched Hunting Tactics last. The two plays resulted very different experiences.

I always split my first Stone Thrower and start to explore with the 3 weaker units. My first 4 or 5 tribal villages gave the same results on both plays. One gave research breakthrough the rest gave money. At this point somewhere I did something different on my second play.

On my first play I found 3 or 4 more tribal villages every one of them gave money except the last one. It had a hiding criminal which killed the Stone Thrower. I lost another earlier to a Bengal Tiger not far from my capital. The last one I lost to a Panther some turns later. I started to send out different units to explore and hunt. They dropped like flies. I had no more than two Trackers at the same time. By the time I trained the the third I always lost one. At the time I restarted I was able to explore a little more than half of the continent.

My research was a little slow. I always try to beeline for the religious techs. I was 4 techs away from researching Druidic Traditions when someone founded the religion. A this point I decided that I have no chance to research Shamanism first so I rearranged my research to reach Tribalism as fast as possible. On the list of the World's Most Advanced Civilizations I wasn't on the list.

On my second attempt I was unusually lucky. After the first 4 or 5 tribal villages I was able to get 6 or 7 more. One gave a Scout a later one gave a Stone Axeman. Two gave research breakthrough the rest gave money. My original Stone Throwers survived much longer than the first time. With them and the Scout and the Axeman I was able to explore almost the whole continent. I hunted with them a lot too. By the time I lost the last of the Stone Throwers I had 5 Trackers hunting around the continent. I lost some later but it wasn't as bad as the first time. Far from it.

It resulted a much faster research. At the start I decided that I won't push for the first two religious tech. Based on my first play I thought I won't be able to reach them first. Some time later I got the Most Advanced Civilizations list and I was 4th on it. I thought I might have a chance after all so I beelined to the Druidic Traditions. It worked. I was able to grab every religion in the Era. Later I was able to get the Tribal Village islands around the continent too. I got a couple of research breakthroughs from them.

I researched the Sedentary Lifestyle in turn 622. I researched every tech in the era which means I averaged 6.22 turns/tech on a Snail game. I have 7 cities the AI empires have 1 each. I am behind production a little but it's not too bad. I am so far ahead I won the game already. I decided to abandon the game and to start a new one on a higher difficulty setting.

I have the Teleport Hunting Awards option on. I will turn this option off for my next game but I don't like that after the Sedentary Lifestyle the subdued animals will be teleported back. It would be nice to have an option to turn the teleporting off for the entire game.

I also would like to play a game without Tribal Villages but the option to turn them off is missing. It existed at some point, I played such games a long time ago.

 

[jshetley]

I researched the Sedentary Lifestyle in my game. It's a Snail game on Emperor difficulty and on a Huge mapsize. My leader is Lincoln who has Scientific trait which gives a nice research bonus. I am on a big continent with 4 AI empires. My starting area is mediocre at the start but it has some good resources so it is a good place in the long run. My capital is next to a river but there is no cave. My strongest production tile gives 2 hammers at the start.

Originally I started it on SVN 9942 if I remember correctly. Because the AI changes I decided to restart the same game with the 9946 version. In my first play I was somewhere in the middle of the Prehistoric Era when I restarted. I researched Hunting Tactics last. The two plays resulted very different experiences.

I always split my first Stone Thrower and start to explore with the 3 weaker units. My first 4 or 5 tribal villages gave the same results on both plays. One gave research breakthrough the rest gave money. At this point somewhere I did something different on my second play.

On my first play I found 3 or 4 more tribal villages every one of them gave money except the last one. It had a hiding criminal which killed the Stone Thrower. I lost another earlier to a Bengal Tiger not far from my capital. The last one I lost to a Panther some turns later. I started to send out different units to explore and hunt. They dropped like flies. I had no more than two Trackers at the same time. By the time I trained the the third I always lost one. At the time I restarted I was able to explore a little more than half of the continent.

My research was a little slow. I always try to beeline for the religious techs. I was 4 techs away from researching Druidic Traditions when someone founded the religion. A this point I decided that I have no chance to research Shamanism first so I rearranged my research to reach Tribalism as fast as possible. On the list of the World's Most Advanced Civilizations I wasn't on the list.

On my second attempt I was unusually lucky. After the first 4 or 5 tribal villages I was able to get 6 or 7 more. One gave a Scout a later one gave a Stone Axeman. Two gave research breakthrough the rest gave money. My original Stone Throwers survived much longer than the first time. With them and the Scout and the Axeman I was able to explore almost the whole continent. I hunted with them a lot too. By the time I lost the last of the Stone Throwers I had 5 Trackers hunting around the continent. I lost some later but it wasn't as bad as the first time. Far from it.

It resulted a much faster research. At the start I decided that I won't push for the first two religious tech. Based on my first play I thought I won't be able to reach them first. Some time later I got the Most Advanced Civilizations list and I was 4th on it. I thought I might have a chance after all so I beelined to the Druidic Traditions. It worked. I was able to grab every religion in the Era. Later I was able to get the Tribal Village islands around the continent too. I got a couple of research breakthroughs from them.

I researched the Sedentary Lifestyle in turn 622. I researched every tech in the era which means I averaged 6.22 turns/tech on a Snail game. I have 7 cities the AI empires have 1 each. I am behind production a little but it's not too bad. I am so far ahead I won the game already. I decided to abandon the game and to start a new one on a higher difficulty setting.

I have the Teleport Hunting Awards option on. I will turn this option off for my next game but I don't like that after the Sedentary Lifestyle the subdued animals will be teleported back. It would be nice to have an option to turn the teleporting off for the entire game.

I also would like to play a game without Tribal Villages but the option to turn them off is missing. It existed at some point, I played such games a long time ago.

Those tribal villages can make or break a game. Getting a hunter from one of them puts you WAY ahead in the game. I have gotten complete techs plus a hunter from them in the same game. When that happens you just about can not lose..

 

[JosEPh_II]

In 200 turns I researched 7 techs and I don't beeline at all.

And how much time did this 200 turns cost you in play time? 2 hours? Less? more?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have 7 cities the AI empires have 1 each.

This is what makes the current v38 release a mess and even the latest assets fixes that but there's other problems. Hopefully I'll be able to make a commit soon!!!

 

[stoferb]

This is what makes the current v38 release a mess and even the latest assets fixes that but there's other problems. Hopefully I'll be able to make a commit soon!!!

I'm playing on Prince and Epic speed , Large map. AI hangs on pretty fine building cities. I have been most the time slightly ahead in number of cities but not by much and often the AI has catched up fast and a few times been ahead of me too. Only recently, 3/4 through the ancient era am I really outexpanding the AI, I now have 20 cities and AI has between 6 and 14 cities. And that really eats into my economy too. One thing though, with cities starting with one tile, barbarian cities will never spawn new civs, since they can't grow until they get some territory and appearantly barbarians never build culture buildings.

 

[raxo2222]

And how much time did this 200 turns cost you in play time? 2 hours? Less? more?

Bit less - hour and half.

Beginning feels like slow takeoff on Eternity/Nightmare/Gigantic.

I'll test Normal/Settler/Duel now

1 for Brute, 2 for Stone Thrower (1 turn to build)
Alpha male and female cost 1 (1 turns to build on city foundation)
PC Klasies River Caves - world wonder costs 7 (4 turns to build on game start)
Nomadic Lifestyle costs 10 - 2 turns to research.

I researched 10 techs within 12 turns.
Units are extremely slow compared to tech progression
Extremes will feel saner after production/research modifiers change to AI only.
That is AI will be faster/slower on higher/lower handicaps.
Also balancing to calendar will be easier - AI doesn't care about calendar anyway.
Higher difficulties on my no AI spacemap is just like another game speed modifier.

Lets try Normal/Noble/Standard.
2 for Brute, 3 for Stone Thrower (1 turn to build)
Alpha male and female cost 2 (1 turns to build on city foundation)
PC Klasies River Caves - world wonder costs 9 (5 turns to build on game start)
Nomadic Lifestyle costs 15 - 2 turns to research.
Researched first 10 techs in 17 turns.
What 50 000 BC does represent?
In fastest and standardized pace I reached that date around third techs column.

 

[Toffer90]

One thing though, with cities starting with one tile, barbarian cities will never spawn new civs, since they can't grow until they get some territory and appearantly barbarians never build culture buildings.

A known issue that we do plan to work on sooner or later. Barbarians role in C2C has been neglected for many years now due to other priorities.