New Hotfix Version (12-15)

[CrabHelmet]

I must admit, I'm really not a huge fan of the trade route distance modifier. Trade from faraway lands wasn't valuable because it came from far away per se, it was valuable because the goods you could get (e.g. spices) were not ones that could be acquired domestically. You don't model that by making more distant trade routes more valuable, you modify that by making the gold contribution of Luxs higher and maybe adding a bonus for trade routes to cities with Luxs you don't have a copy of.

To see why this matters, Olives from very far away in VP when you have 7/8 of the Olives yourself are worth more than Whales from next door when you don't control any Whales. That's not right.

 

[Infixo]

I checked on Github and it appears (to this novice Github user) that this code is still current. If so, then the Early and Late named configuration values are being applied to the wrong term in the equation.

The names are confusing, because that formula was changed once. In the very original formula A-B-C corresponded to Early-Mid-Late, but now it is different. Maybe @Gazebo could change those names to simple getAIDifficultyBonusA, getAIDifficultyBonusB, etc. to avoid confusion. But the code is OK. In CvInfos.cpp you have:

   m_iDifficultyBonusBase = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusBase");
   m_iDifficultyBonusEarly = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusA");
   m_iDifficultyBonusMid = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusB");
   m_iDifficultyBonusLate = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusC");

So, "DifficultyBonusA" is used in quadratic part, "DifficultyBonusB" in linear and "DifficultyBonusC" is constant.

 

[Txurce]

I am for the idea to disabling historic events on archeology digs. There are just to many sites and the first AI (off course its the runaway) gets just insane instant bonuses for being first in researching archeology.

I agree with this. My own recent/relevant gameplay has included beelining Archaeology, and the results have been... worthwhile. Apart from being overly weighted, it affects current performance in a way that distorts anecdotal evidence regarding how to further tune the game. So does religion, which is strong enough to be worth mentioning (got it/didn't) along with playing level when reporting results.

 

[Workerspam]

• Trade route distance modifier removed, overall yields decreased by 25%. (Keep 1 per city thing. That's enough for some diversity.)

I think the trade route distance could be kept but at a much smaller malus. Right now it goes from 0 to 75% (from what I remember). I think it could be bumped to, at worse, 20%. This would make longer routes slightly more rewarding while avoiding the current oddities of your small but remote city granting more trade route yields than your fully developed capital, or improved trade range decimating a previous routes yields.

 

[Infixo]

So does religion, which is strong enough to be worth mentioning (got it/didreligion n't) along with playing level when reporting results.

Getting a religion in VP is a religion... („i denounce venice” is my religion).

What if number of religions were increased? Like 5 religions for standard size. That would ease tension on getting one without actually lowering requirements for one. You would still found as 4th or 5th in many cases. That itself puts you in a worse position becasue AI is already spreading its religion like crazy and many beliefs are taken, so your choice is limited. And if you are a great player that can found as 1st or 2nd (is it even possible on Emperor+??), that 1 additional religion would probably not be a strategy changing situation.

 

[Infixo]

So far my list of proposed changes to start:

• Trade route distance modifier removed, overall yields decreased by 25%. (Keep 1 per city thing. That's enough for some diversity.)

I agree with first 2 points, about TRs however I think that:
A) boosting factors for TRs should be lowered, not the final yield; those boosts account sometimes for x3 base yield
B) distance malus could stay with cap at 50%
C) I started to like that blocking mechanism after some playtime with it, it does force you to spread trade but I still think that 1 TR only is harsh; i am still for 1 land and 1 sea route per destination rule

 

[ElliotS]

Getting a religion in VP is a religion... („i denounce venice” is my religion).

What if number of religions were increased? Like 5 religions for standard size. That would ease tension on getting one without actually lowering requirements for one. You would still found as 4th or 5th in many cases. That itself puts you in a worse position becasue AI is already spreading its religion like crazy and many beliefs are taken, so your choice is limited. And if you are a great player that can found as 1st or 2nd (is it even possible on Emperor+??), that 1 additional religion would probably not be a strategy changing situation.

This makes reforming much harder and spreading harder. I don't like it.

Religions have become a lot less important. The fact that you benefit from Reformation beliefs and that founders kinda suck means it doesn't hurt THAT much to not get a religion.

What really hurts is going for a religion and failing.

 

[Gazebo]

So far my list of proposed changes to start:

• AI gets 50% culture compared to other yields.
• Digs are not counted for Handicap bonuses (leads too easily to snowballs)
• Trade route distance modifier removed, overall yields decreased by 25%. (Keep 1 per city thing. That's enough for some diversity.)

The TR thing is not feasible, as the yields for things like culture or science are already at their base. The distance element is a unique scaler and operates off of the other values. I think it’s fine as a model.

Also, for all here, there’s a log file exclusively dedicated to AI handicap bonuses. You can see what they gain and when (and why) if you look: DifficultyBonus.log.

If you have AI logging on it will work.

G

 

[Infixo]

To see why this matters, Olives from very far away in VP when you have 7/8 of the Olives yourself are worth more than Whales from next door when you don't control any Whales. That's not right.

It makes sense because TR works at city-city level, no empire-wide things are relevant. And people in your city don’t have Olives.
Maybe it would be possible to include at least some easy empire-level mechanism to account for the above situation, e.g. if you don’t have a resource at all +2 gold, if you have 1 copy +1 gold, if you have 2 copies +0.5 gold, more copies no gold at all, we dont need it.

 

[Gazebo]

The names are confusing, because that formula was changed once. In the very original formula A-B-C corresponded to Early-Mid-Late, but now it is different. Maybe @Gazebo could change those names to simple getAIDifficultyBonusA, getAIDifficultyBonusB, etc. to avoid confusion. But the code is OK. In CvInfos.cpp you have:

   m_iDifficultyBonusBase = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusBase");
   m_iDifficultyBonusEarly = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusA");
   m_iDifficultyBonusMid = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusB");
   m_iDifficultyBonusLate = kResults.GetInt("DifficultyBonusC");

So, "DifficultyBonusA" is used in quadratic part, "DifficultyBonusB" in linear and "DifficultyBonusC" is constant.

Don’t read too much into m_i names, the convention is the same. I didn’t change the name after switching to ABC naming to preserve save game compat.

 

[DarkZero]

Report if the 4 games I played so far:
2 Cakewalk games on emperor whit a early game civ (Greece and Mongolia), the first 2 eras the ai are really weak on emperor makes them easy targets for conquest and them a hard snowball, after the early game advantage I never let anyone run away.
1 kinda okay game on emperor whit korea : without early game snowball and the ai eventually becomes even, but its still no match for a human.

Conclusion: emperor could use a few more buff, mostly on early game, but it is fine overall.

1 game on immortal as Spain... Ethiopia as in my game and in renascence it already felt hopeless, he won culture victory on turn 234 on standard speed, he had more policies them Poland.

 

[Infixo]

This makes reforming much harder and spreading harder. I don't like it.
Religions have become a lot less important. The fact that you benefit from Reformation beliefs and that founders kinda suck means it doesn't hurt THAT much to not get a religion.
What really hurts is going for a religion and failing.

20% for reformation can be lowered to account for 1 more religion.
If getting a religion doesn’t hurt, why haven’t I seen any playthrough or photolog where somebody would say: I am not going for religion, I dont need it. I always see either a) trying and failing b) giving up before trying (scenario „bad start, i will not get it anyway”). In both cases also many try to conquer another Holy City.

 

[Infixo]

Also, for all here, there’s a log file exclusively dedicated to AI handicap bonuses. You can see what they gain and when (and why) if you look: DifficultyBonus.log.

It's actually DifficultyHandicapLog.csv

 

[Questdog]

Report if the 4 games I played so far:
2 Cakewalk games on emperor whit a early game civ (Greece and Mongolia), the first 2 eras the ai are really weak on emperor makes them easy targets for conquest and them a hard snowball, after the early game advantage I never let anyone run away.
1 kinda okay game on emperor whit korea : without early game snowball and the ai eventually becomes even, but its still no match for a human.

Conclusion: emperor could use a few more buff, mostly on early game, but it is fine overall.

1 game on immortal as Spain... Ethiopia as in my game and in renascence it already felt hopeless, he won culture victory on turn 234 on standard speed, he had more policies them Poland.

Something is broken with Ethiopia, I think. I tried playing a standard speed game to see if it really was harder than marathon and Ethiopia had 4 policies at turn 20 at Emperor level.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I've been noticing that too, @Questdog . It's like what I ws saying to @ElliotS earlier. I think something is triggering the handicap payouts which should not be, at a stage very early in the game, although I'm not sure what. It's more easily noticeable on Ethiopia because of their UA, but I've seen other Civ waltzing around at very low turn counts with 2+ policies - we're talking 20 turns or less.

Does anyone have a list of what counts as a historic event?

 

[Txurce]

20% for reformation can be lowered to account for 1 more religion.
If getting a religion doesn’t hurt, why haven’t I seen any playthrough or photolog where somebody would say: I am not going for religion, I dont need it. I always see either a) trying and failing b) giving up before trying (scenario „bad start, i will not get it anyway”). In both cases also many try to conquer another Holy City.

It's hard to believe that there's still a need to reassert that getting a religion is the single most important factor in the game.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Here's one example. Gajah Mada with 4 techs and 2 policies on turn 18. Note that the opener doesn't count as a policy, so he has literally taken an opener, a first policy, and a second policy within 18 turns. I've only just managed to get the opener (about 2 turns before this) despite working Gold early and getting the Culture Ruin.

It's literally impossible for the AI to do that well through the course of normal play. Something has triggered the handicap. I just don't know what...

Whatever it is, it has broken Deity. The AI are cultural juggernauts. I'd go so far as to say victory is impossible with certain Civs in the game. I don't think a human can beat Ethiopia except in the most exceptional of circumstances.

 

[ElliotS]

Note that the opener doesn't count as a policy

Yes it does. It just doesn't show up until they pick a second policy.

Something has triggered the handicap. I just don't know what..

See:

Also, for all here, there’s a log file exclusively dedicated to AI handicap bonuses. You can see what they gain and when (and why) if you look: DifficultyBonus.log.

If you have AI logging on it will work.

G

Lastly @Gazebo :
How do you feel about these? I'm just wondering how to proceed on the discussion.

• AI gets 50% culture compared to other yields.
• Digs are not counted for Handicap bonuses (leads too easily to snowballs)

 

[CrabHelmet]

Here's a good one. I met Venice very early and was capable of observing them.

Here's me meeting Venice on turn 7. They already have 3 techs - I know one is Agriculture, but that still implies they made it through 2 techs in under 7 turns. Is @Gazebo sure he removed Pottery?

On turn 8, 9, 10, no real change. They got 2 more POPs in their cap in those turns, which is... fast, but whatever. Then, suddenly, turn 11...

In one turn, they complete the opener AND the first policy AND the second policy. That's obscene!

Turn 12, I meet Greece. Didn't take a screenshot (apologies), but he has 5 techs and 2 policies. On turn 12!

This is an enormous problem for human players. Culture begets more culture. Before you have your opener, culture is limited to the Palace, the Monument (which won't come online for a while), and maybe a Ruin or two. Compare that to an AI that has Progress' opener from turn 8, especially given how fast the AI gets new pops.

Morever, whatever is triggering the handicap is making other stuff near impossible too. Unless you find a Friendly Religious City-State or a Faith Ruin, you will be last to a Pantheon. Every single time. Doesn't matter if you started on a Forested Hill and get 6 Faith off the Vatican or whatever.

 

[Infixo]

Digs are not counted for Handicap bonuses (leads too easily to snowballs)

I did some analysis here and I am not sure that Digs are actually an offender here. They certainly give a "point in time" boost, but still they are limited in number. Take a look at this. Mid-game (~60 turns, 215-273), 2 Civs have Archeology. 171 events triggered.

109 Great Person events (sic!)
Out of 18 digs, 12 went to Inca and 6 to Egypt. At the same time Inca got 23 GP and Egypt got 13. Also, for some reason I can't explain yet, all GP events give x2-x4 as much yield as Dig. So, Inca got 10814 yields from GP and only 3165 from Digs, and Egypt got 5171 from GPs and 1106 from Digs.

I would say that Great Persons might be a problem, not Digs. I don't have more logs (they are overwritten once you start Civ5), so more checks are required to confirm that.