New NESes, ideas, development, etc

[Flavius Aetius]

So a cradle sistem?

 

[das]

I don't think that really applies here at all, unless you mean a CZ system which will be applied pretty heavily (though possibly I will redo even that into something else).

 

[Abaddon]

I assume you will have all the nations set out ready to be claimed?

 

[das]

Basically, yes. Obviously, new ones will emerge over time.

 

[Abaddon]

I assume this is multi-many months away? 4th quarter 08?

 

[das]

Haven't quite decided yet, but probably earlier, and possibly much earlier. Depends on many things.

 

[Abaddon]

Noooo, dont kill AFSNES! Your a pooface

 

[The Strategos]

If your rethinking stats, I wouldn't mind seeing the "education" stat get junked since it is pointless for this era. To replace it, I'm a big fan of a "patronage" stat.

Edit: And maybe a "sacrifice" stat or something like that to simulate how tight governments and religion were during this time.

 

[das]

As said, I'm going to remake everything; so ofcourse Education gets the axe, amongst other things (not yet decided if Confidence or Living Standards are worth keeping; definitely going to add Stability, though).

As to the Patronage stat, I'm really not sure as to how is that supposed to work. Presently I think it will be best to just let rulers patronise whatever they want beyond the stats, and then see if it has any effect.

 

[The Strategos]

The reason I like the patronage stat so much is because it helps account for all the money kings and nobles spent just as part of their station in life. So under patronage I include artists, magi, magicians, musicians, craftsmen, etc. For effects, as I envision it, it would play into culture, and maybe confidence (because who wants a king who lives like a goatherd?), with a couple “random” events once in a while. If we could ever make your old “prestige” idea work (which is a great idea in theory but horrible in practice) it would fit nicely into that.

 

[Abaddon]

Magicians? Woo! Here be dragon?

 

[das]

The reason I like the patronage stat so much is because it helps account for all the money kings and nobles spent just as part of their station in life. So under patronage I include artists, magi, magicians, musicians, craftsmen, etc.

I'm not sure, I think it's very much hit and miss - too much hit and miss for it to be an actual stat, though patronage of all kinds will have its effects. But:

If we could ever make your old “prestige” idea work (which is a great idea in theory but horrible in practice) it would fit nicely into that.

Some sort of a Grandeur stat (which merges diplomatic prestige, cultural influence and cultural sophistication) might work. alex994 will love that.

One other thing you might help me with is the cults, given how much politics, economy and culture rotated around various regional and imperial cults and emerging world religions. I'm presently thinking of having a separate Religion or Cult stat, to list the most important of those and describe their degree of power and influence.

 

[The Strategos]

Some sort of a Grandeur stat (which merges diplomatic prestige, cultural influence and cultural sophistication) might work. alex994 will love that.

A "grandeur" stat would be nice, which seems to be kind of like my patronage stat except, well, grander. There are many domestic related areas that would prove useful for, especially if you can deliver a NES where domestic factions are active.

One other thing you might help me with is the cults, given how much politics, economy and culture rotated around various regional and imperial cults and emerging world religions. I'm presently thinking of having a separate Religion or Cult stat, to list the most important of those and describe their degree of power and influence.

Sure, I've got Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Akkadian, Jewish, and Cannanite primary religious texts on my computer (and access through library to an even larger selection), so just tell me what you need.

 

[das]

A "grandeur" stat would be nice, which seems to be kind of like my patronage stat except, well, grander. There are many domestic related areas that would prove useful for, especially if you can deliver a NES where domestic factions are active.

Certainly. I suppose that it would also be boosted by successful looting (not just of anything, ofcourse) and construction of wonders (I think that Birdjaguar's definition of wonders as particularly memorable and succesful projects applies well here, which reminds me that I'll probably have to redo the project system as well, so as to fit in with the assorted state projects of the time).

Sure, I've got Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Akkadian, Jewish, and Cannanite primary religious texts on my computer (and access through library to an even larger selection), so just tell me what you need.

That's nice too and is definitely going to be very useful later on, but for now I'm asking for more general advice on implementation.

Some other things I need to figure out mostly rotate around the Economy: whether and how to add Taxation, Slavery and Irrigation. I'm going to introduce a Maintenance stat, both for the military and for the bureaucratic apparatus where such exists, as well as for various canals, roads and fortifications. Possibly might make it more detailed so that the player will have to balance these things and his further plans carefully.

 

[The Strategos]

That's nice too and is definitely going to be very useful later on, but for now I'm asking for more general advice on implementation.

Well, how complicated do you want to make it? Do you want just the ruler’s patron deity involved, or an entire pantheon? At the very least, I wouldn't mind seeing something like a “sacrifice” stat, in order to show how much money the government spends on sacrifices and cults. You may get away with skimping from the dieties for a while, but the first failure you get, the populous is going to be blaming YOU for not keeping the gods satisfied.

Some other things I need to figure out mostly rotate around the Economy: whether and how to add Taxation, Slavery and Irrigation. I'm going to introduce a Maintenance stat, both for the military and for the bureaucratic apparatus where such exists, as well as for various canals, roads and fortifications. Possibly might make it more detailed so that the player will have to balance these things and his further plans carefully.

Would taxation be better described as tribute at this time period? I think, if I recall some reading I did last year, that “taxes” only got collected in Egypt when the Pharaoh made his biyearly journey around the country. I don’t know how feasible this is, but maybe for its implementation, have every year the king assign how much tribute he wants from each region. The local rulers then give him how much they decide to, so, for example, if the local ruler wanted to kiss up, he would give more, if a ruler was pretty independent minded, he might give less.

For slavery, maybe for every x amount of slaves you have, you get y amount of economy to spend (this is assuming you’re using Excel or a similar program to do the work for you)?

 

[North King]

Would taxation be better described as tribute at this time period? I think, if I recall some reading I did last year, that “taxes” only got collected in Egypt when the Pharaoh made his biyearly journey around the country. I don’t know how feasible this is, but maybe for its implementation, have every year the king assign how much tribute he wants from each region. The local rulers then give him how much they decide to, so, for example, if the local ruler wanted to kiss up, he would give more, if a ruler was pretty independent minded, he might give less.

Taxes are pretty standard fare for any time period; they won't be out of place as a simple percentage. Tax too much, and your people starve to death.

 

[das]

Well, how complicated do you want to make it? Do you want just the ruler’s patron deity involved, or an entire pantheon? At the very least, I wouldn't mind seeing something like a “sacrifice” stat, in order to show how much money the government spends on sacrifices and cults. You may get away with skimping from the dieties for a while, but the first failure you get, the populous is going to be blaming YOU for not keeping the gods satisfied.

I will ideally want to have the most prominent of the cults involved. It might actually be better to go by the cities than by anything else, at least early on: see the Cult of Amon in Thebes, for instance.

And yes, the amount of wealth accumulated by the cults will probably be factored in, as will the degree of their favour for the present ruler.

Would taxation be better described as tribute at this time period? I think, if I recall some reading I did last year, that “taxes” only got collected in Egypt when the Pharaoh made his biyearly journey around the country. I don’t know how feasible this is, but maybe for its implementation, have every year the king assign how much tribute he wants from each region. The local rulers then give him how much they decide to, so, for example, if the local ruler wanted to kiss up, he would give more, if a ruler was pretty independent minded, he might give less.

That pretty much is what I meant, at least in the regards of the regions, though I'll probably have to simplify these things.

For slavery, maybe for every x amount of slaves you have, you get y amount of economy to spend (this is assuming you’re using Excel or a similar program to do the work for you)?

Probably not quite as simple as that. I think I'll just keep separate slave stats for both economies; quantity of slave units will ofcourse have a (probably nonlinear) direct effect on the economy and will also have a subtler influence on the society as well. King's slaves will be needed for projects (although some alternatives could be found, I guess). Also, there will be epidemics, escapes and even occasional slave revolts to occasionally upset the slave population.

 

[The Strategos]

I will ideally want to have the most prominent of the cults involved. It might actually be better to go by the cities than by anything else, at least early on: see the Cult of Amon in Thebes, for instance.

And yes, the amount of wealth accumulated by the cults will probably be factored in, as will the degree of their favour for the present ruler.

That's fine, once you give me a nation list, I can get back to you with a cult list.

More importantly, is thinking of a way to re-educate the forum on ancient religions. I'll pull my hair out if I see Ra missionaries or Marduk crusaders.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Some other things I need to figure out mostly rotate around the Economy: whether and how to add Taxation, Slavery and Irrigation. I'm going to introduce a Maintenance stat, both for the military and for the bureaucratic apparatus where such exists, as well as for various canals, roads and fortifications. Possibly might make it more detailed so that the player will have to balance these things and his further plans carefully.

(this is assuming you’re using Excel or a similar program to do the work for you)?

das, if you plan on using Excel, I would be happy to build you a base template for calculating things. It would be something you could build on and modify as you please.

The process I went through for BirdNES was to create a list of everything I wanted to track, and of those, everything I wanted players to see. The third piece is how you expect players to interact with the system. If taxes are on your list, do you want players to be able to set a tax rate or not? Do you want them to build TCs and create economic growth that way (directly) or will growth come some other way? Answering these types of questions sets the flavor for the game and the complexity apparent to players.

Everything is much easier if you answer the big questions first, then the rest just becomes inputs and calculations that are tweaked to make things balance nicely.

With the exception of slaves, I have all the other (and more) at work in one fashion or another BirdNES.

 

[das]

More importantly, is thinking of a way to re-educate the forum on ancient religions. I'll pull my hair out if I see Ra missionaries or Marduk crusaders.

That's an understanding. Hopefully the cult stat will discourage that nonsense to some extent. What is a more difficult matter is how the religions of a new type should be handled: I mean things like Judaism and Zoroastrianism. The former, at least, is fairly similar to a classical cult, and might be tied to certain cities with relative ease in its earlier stages; but the latter is entirely different. I'm not at all sure as to how it should be handled, though the Magi - and their equivalents both elsewhere and elsewhen - should probably be a social group in and of themselves (see While We Wait 3 discussion).

Also, on introduction of new cults and religions, I think it might be best to wrest that out of player hands, for the most part, but allow them to do as they please with such religions, cults and movements (that latter bit reminds me - how will we handle Chinese philosophies? Probably rather similar to new type religions here, but with less in the way of widespread following) later on, though to the likely consternation of the priestly elite in question.

das, if you plan on using Excel, I would be happy to build you a base template for calculating things. It would be something you could build on and modify as you please.

I'm not exactly keen on making this math (or Excel) based, but thanks anyway.