Don't forget that many wonders in BE are generally weaker by a certain factor that is based on how many beakers are lost for the research of it's associated technology. You don't get all wonders en passant and only choose whether you delay them or rush them. You have to pass entirely on something else to get them. Add this fact and many wonders across all categories are much, much worse. The only technologies I EVER research for their associated wonders are the ones that hold Gene Vault and Ectogenesis Pod. While Ectogenesis Pod is on a key tech anyways, which doesnt give it the malus and makes it even better yet again. Also it's raw benefit is better than the raw benefits of wonders that are on otherwise useless leaf techs and that cost more to build. How this kind of imbalance could make it into the game is beyond me...
Obviously many expensive last tier leaf techs are supposed to be researched for their associated wonders... Shouldn't THAT be the good wonders? Something went terribly wrong here...
I think that is where the affinity points come in... The wonders aren't so good that they are worth researching.. unless you are following that affinity.
I'm ok with that model...ie only factions following a certain affinity will ever research certain wonders.
The last leaf techs are generally researched for the Affinity points for VC. Only factions that actually value those Affinity points are liable to even research those techs, so building those Wonders represents significantly less risk than otherwise.
Many of the Wonders also fall into the "might as well" category, because it's commonplace in CivBE to have a central production center that's so powerful that it builds every building and then is left to Social or Agricultural Development, even while lesser cities limp on Neurolabs. When you can build Crawler in 5 turns and you have nothing else pressing on the queue...
The Crawler is also one of those Wonders that directly adds hammers to the final VC build. Is it that out of the way?
I agree, some cases are not as severe as others. Yet many wonders are not tied to affinity points and not all affinity techs are needed for the affinity victory in the first place. So the point remains. Often you will have to choose whether to risk the research + build time for a 'crappy' wonder or choose something different altogether, while other wonders are no brainers and you even get them en passant.
I suspect the reason the patch took so long is because a good portion of the coders and QA staff that worked on this project have been shunted off to either work on DLC for BE or whatever Firaxis's next project will be. Whoever is working on the patch is probably a skeleton crew comparatively.
I think there deserves to be a "great/plz nerf" option, even if it only contains the xenomalleum. +2 gold from generators is nothing to sneeze at (assuming you're not wasting time teching up to it anyway, which I feel is generally not the case).
I think there deserves to be a "great/plz nerf" option, even if it only contains the xenomalleum. +2 gold from generators is nothing to sneeze at (assuming you're not wasting time teching up to it anyway, which I feel is generally not the case).
I'm gonna put Xenodrome in there too, for Purity and Supremacy.
Now, I admit, Supremacy will probably go thru Transgenics instead, and Purity doesn't need to be in that part of the tree at all.
But if you are there, (steal tech?) it's +10 culture for 750 nuts. +4 for wonder, +4 for the free Xenosanctuary, and +2 for the Xenosanctuary quest. That's awesome.
Obviously many expensive last tier leaf techs are supposed to be researched for their associated wonders... Shouldn't THAT be the good wonders? Something went terribly wrong here...
they clearly had no game testing Phase as every Player who got experience which prrvious game Versions d have told them after one palythrough that wonders (and many other thigns) Need a total rebalance.
Why they didnt do that ???
Costs cant really be an issue here - many many People d have done that for free.
You really expect them to fix everything in the first patch? This first patch was pretty massive. I would bet good money that the second patch will address wonder balance.
I expect Wonders to be balanced at release, or at least something approaching balance. Seeing as that somehow did not happen, spending a day balancing them for a patch is not much to ask.
Civ4 Wonders were not balanced for a very, very long time after release. The first expansion pack released, IIRC, and they were still not balanced. Arguably, they're still not balanced now. That's Firaxis. That's Stardock, too. I don't think they even bothered to go through the factions in GalCiv2 with an eye for balance. Your expectation is completely out of place in a SP 4x game. Always has been.
wonder balance is harder than you might think. If the wonders just give + bonuses then, yes, you can do some math to figure out if the numbers add up or not. But when wonders give special bonuses that are very different from each other, balance becomes more subjective. For example, how do you compare Cynosure's additional veterancy to units bonuses to the Quantum Computer's free tech? Some players might feel like Cynosure is really good and can give an example of how that additional veterancy really helped them win a war. But another player might disagree and argue that the QC is better because the free tech let them slingshot to level 13 in their affinity faster. You are comparing apples to oranges.
I don't think perfect balance is possible. Wonders should not have a bonus that is obviously too good or too weak but beyond that, you still want wonders to be unique. And the whole point of strategy games is to give the player different options that can all be good in their own way. There is always going to be some unbalance depending on the competency of the player. That is the nature of strategy.
wonder balance is harder than you might think. If the wonders just give + bonuses then, yes, you can do some math to figure out if the numbers add up or not. But when wonders give special bonuses that are very different from each other, balance becomes more subjective. For example, how do you compare Cynosure's additional veterancy to units bonuses to the Quantum Computer's free tech? Some players might feel like Cynosure is really good and can give an example of how that additional veterancy really helped them win a war. But another player might disagree and argue that the QC is better because the free tech let them slingshot to level 13 in their affinity faster. You are comparing apples to oranges.
I don't think perfect balance is possible. Wonders should not have a bonus that is obviously too good or too weak but beyond that, you still want wonders to be unique. And the whole point of strategy games is to give the player different options that can all be good in their own way. There is always going to be some unbalance depending on the competency of the player. That is the nature of strategy.
I don't think anyone was expecting perfect balance. But there are so many wonders that are just plain terrible ideas to go for that it makes you wonder whether you're looking at the placeholder data they threw in while thinking, "Eh, we can fix them later" and just never got around to it.
So many? I'm counting a few. Daedalus Ladder, New Terran Myth, Xenonova.
The nature of tech web and incentives in the tech web demands that Wonders not be too good or they'll override affinity incentives in patching through the web. The Institute does that already. The only reason Holon Chamber doesn't is because people weren't aware that it gave free tech.
Nanothermite (and Archimedes) is OK... its just situational.
You won't always want it but +30 city strength is significant if you want city strength.
(ie you want it if you are going defensive)... Its good for a chokepoint or near your Victory Wonder.
Its not perfectly balanced, but also not worthless
To be fair, the wonders might not be exciting, but I'm glad that they're not actually broken as many like to proclaim. Trade routes were a problem because they warped the entire economy and were disproportionally powerful. Hence, squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Wonders? They don't "warp" the gameplay in the same way, the worst sin is that you can ignore them but they don't have any bad effects, so to speak.
That makes them a low priority issue to me. Yes, it'd be nice if they became more worthwhile and interesting... but overall? I can live with it.
New Terran Myth needs a buff. What if the wonder gave you 2 free earthling settlers when you complete the exodus gate? I also really think that the +40 purity points should be moved from Human Conservation to Human Idealism. It would make the two leaf techs more equal. As it stands now, Human Conservation is way better than Human Idealism.
Definitely Bad
Ansible
Xenodrome
Armasail
New Terran myth
Crawler (since it only applies to this city... and other wonders are sort of poor)
Dedalus ladder
Xenonova
Resurrection Device
Tectonic Anvil
I could say I've built:
- Xenodrome as alternative to Xeno Sanctuary. For some additional production and useless Geothermal, I save 1 Xenomass and get additional culture. For Harmony victory it looks like a good choice.
- Resurrection device. After the patch, bonus health is bonus to nearly everything.
Speaking about other wonders:
- Ansible could have a good use if you're going Harmony with Supremacy less than 2. It gives you a free Feedside Hub, which can give you an agent from quest. Very situational.
- Armasail could be useful too in very specific situations for city where you expect massive attack.
- Crawler is not bad by itself, it just comes in too late.
- Daedalus Ladder is not that good, because Health bonus is small. But since the tech is attractive, you could still build it.
- New Terrain Myth is bad because it requires a tech on its own. Without it it's just additional building producing culture. Not too expensive considering how far it is in the tech web. But surely not worth researching tech for it.
- Tectonic Anvil again comes too late and requires too much production, it will never pay for itself. If it would be pushed much earlier and cheaper, it would be interesting.
- Xenonova - too little health again. Could be interesting with reduced bonuses from internal trade routes as it gives a lot of food and could really benefit some cities. Need checking.
Are you referring to mods? Just because some modders have done something for free, it doesn't mean that money or time isn't an issue. Firaxis has to pay their developers and, hopefully, has some limitation on work time commitment.
I agree that changing wonders seems not that hard, but I'm guessing it was relatively low priority.
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