(NEW)Players Guide to the C2C Combat Mod - Size Matters game option VERSION 2.0

This link takes you to the Combat Mod planning document that shows the size categories. The first categories of combat classes are the size matters groups. There are three.

The first, Size, considers it's center point to be Medium. Medium has a category rating of 5.

The second, Group volume, has a center point of Battalion. Thus Battalion has a category rating of 5 as well.

The third, Combat Quality, has a center point of Standard. Thus Standard has a category rating of 5.

If you reduce the Combat Quality of a unit to the next level down, Mediocre, the unit would have a -1 category shift overall. If that unit was a Size Medium, Group Battalion and a Mediocre Combat Quality, it's overall SM rank would be 14. All the same but Combat Quality at Superior and you'd have a total of 16 and the unit would be starting off stronger.

In Standard SM all units assume that the core mod strength assigned to that unit is what it would have IF the sum of all combat mod categories (the SM rank) tallies to 15. (an average of 5 for each). IF a unit, like a Royal Guard, has category ratings that add up to a total of 16, then it is a unit that starts a category shift high, as if it began play merged one step or with a quality upgrade perhaps. As a result, the SM version of this unit would enter play much stronger than the core version of the unit.
Alright. I think I've got it.

I THINK I set up the IG's at a rank shift up one but I'm not sure. Even if I did, it might not be enough if you want a fully merged military unit to have any trouble with it. As a result, this unit would have to be considered a super power unit and we would basically need to use group size and quality to share upgrades each era, making the unit act as strong, at a base that cannot be much manipulated, as perhaps a unit just one shift less than as fully merged as possible. And recall that units can merge as many times as the era count. Thus at Prehistoric, you can merge once. At Ancient, twice. Etc...
Both the Tribal Guardian and all the IG's have an SM Rank of 15:

  • Tribal Guardian: Medium Size, Squad Group, Exceptional Quality => Size 5, Group 3, Qual 7 (Prehistory: 1)
  • Early IG, G.d.C., Modern IG: Medium, Company Group, Superior Quality => Size 5, Group 4, Qual 6 (Medieval: 4, Renaissance: 5, Modern: 7)
  • Robot IG: Large Size, Solo Group, Elite Quality => Size 6, Group 1, Qual 8 (Nano: 9)
If these units should have 1 bonus less than the era number, the Tribal Guardian is ok, the Early IG needs 3 Boni, the G.d.C. 4 Boni, the Modern I.G. 6 Boni, the Robot I.G. 8 Boni. I think the following would be good:

Early I.G.
Medium Size, Batallion Group, Elite Quality

Original Strength: 18
New Strength: 18 * 1.5^3 = 60.75

Guard du Corps
Medium Size, Forces Group, Elite Quality

Original Strength: 30
New Strength: 30 * 1.5^4 = 151.875

Modern I.G.
Medium Size, Clan Group, Epic Quality

Original Strength: 60
New Strength: 60 * 1.5^6 = 683.4375

Robot I.G.
Large Size, Horde Group, Epic Quality (at this point the Industry should make mass production even of these beasts possible, and the number of robots doesn't matter for AI programming anyway)

Original Strength: 200
New Strength: 200 * 1.5^8 = 5125.78125
 
Early I.G.
Medium Size, Batallion Group, Elite Quality

Original Strength: 18
New Strength: 18 * 1.5^3 = 60.75

Guard du Corps
Medium Size, Forces Group, Elite Quality

Original Strength: 30
New Strength: 30 * 1.5^4 = 151.875

Modern I.G.
Medium Size, Clan Group, Epic Quality

Original Strength: 60
New Strength: 60 * 1.5^6 = 683.4375

Robot I.G.
Large Size, Horde Group, Epic Quality (at this point the Industry should make mass production even of these beasts possible, and the number of robots doesn't matter for AI programming anyway)

Original Strength: 200
New Strength: 200 * 1.5^8 = 5125.78125
I assume these are city, defense only units.
Do they gain any additional defensive bonus (such as +200% city defense)?
Can they get any xp? If so, in what ways and how much?
These units are on the level of super-units. If they are just as described (pure power, no additional bonuses, xp from combat) they are strong, but not overly so. If I can build them with +40 xp, and they have a basic +100% city defense (or something), it's going to be near-impossible to kill them. That didn't take into account city defense bonus.
 
@TB: what do you think about changing the exp modifier <iExperiencePercent> for group size -
- from:
80 ▬ 60 ▬ 40 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -40 ▬ -60 ▬ -80 ▬ -100 ▬ -120 ▬ -140 ▬ -160
- to:
140 ▬ 90 ▬ 50 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -50 ▬ -90 ▬ -140 ▬ -200 ▬ -270 ▬ -350 ▬ -440

Perhaps also change it for combat quality -
- from:
100 ▬ 80 ▬ 60 ▬ 40 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -40 ▬ -60 ▬ -80 ▬ -100
- to:
150 ▬ 120 ▬ 90 ▬ 60 ▬ 30 ▬ 0 ▬ -30 ▬ -60 ▬ -90 ▬ -120 ▬ -150


Would anyone object to me removing the "heal one unit fully per turn" effect from the herbalist building?
Edit: Objection noted. @TB: Maybe you should change the tag, <iNumUnitFullHeal>, to heal 100 HP so that it heals all kinds of units fully without "Size Matters" (SM), but not all kinds of units in a SM game.
Perhaps also change it to always pick the weakest units first...

Is it ok if I give the blitz promotion a 50% exp penalty, and halve the exp bonus from the leadership promo?

Spoiler Unit Upkeep modifier from group size :
I also would like to change the unit upkeep cost modifier on group size -
- from:
-80 ▬ -60 ▬ -40 ▬ -20 ▬ 0 ▬ 20 ▬ 40 ▬ 60 ▬ 80 ▬ 100 ▬ 120 ▬ 140 ▬ 160
- to:
0 ▬ 50 ▬ 100 ▬ 200 ▬ 400 ▬ 800 ▬ 1600 ▬ 3200 ▬ 6400 ▬ 12800 ▬ 25600 ▬ 51200 ▬ 102400

gold upkeep per group size are then:
1 ▬ 1.50 ▬ 2 ▬ 3 ▬ 5 ▬ 9 ▬ 17 ▬ 33 ▬ 65 ▬ 129 ▬ 257 ▬ 513 ▬ 1025
One Solo cost 1 :gold:
One Party cost 1.5 :gold:
One Squad cost 2 :gold:
...
One Horde cost 33 :gold:
One Multitudes cost 65 :gold:
etc.

One problem would be that units upkeep would be wildly different on a SM game than a non-SM game... Not sure that really is a problem or not...
Any thoughts?

N.B. The unit upkeep thing can at any rate wait till after v38 is released.
 
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Would anyone object to me removing the "heal one unit fully per turn" effect from the herbalist building?
Me. For Non SM play. If you can figure out a way to remove it from SM then I have no objections.
 
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Spoiler Unit Upkeep modifier from group size :
I also would like to change the unit upkeep cost modifier on group size -
- from:
-80 ▬ -60 ▬ -40 ▬ -20 ▬ 0 ▬ 20 ▬ 40 ▬ 60 ▬ 80 ▬ 100 ▬ 120 ▬ 140 ▬ 160
- to:
0 ▬ 50 ▬ 100 ▬ 200 ▬ 400 ▬ 800 ▬ 1600 ▬ 3200 ▬ 6400 ▬ 12800 ▬ 25600 ▬ 51200 ▬ 102400

One Solo cost 1 :gold:
one Party cost 1.5 :gold:
...
...
one Countless cost 102.4 :gold:
Any thoughts?

N.B. The unit upkeep thing can at any rate wait till after v38 is released.
Quick notice:
Upkeeps would be more like 1 ▬ 1.50 ▬ 2 ▬ 3 ▬ 5 ▬ 9 ▬ 17 ▬ 33 ▬ 65 ▬ 129 ▬ 257 ▬ 513 ▬ 1025 gold.
Countless upkeep would be 1025x higher than Solo upkeep.
 
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Why some animas have one of highest quality levels (Elite/Epic/Divine)?
Spoiler :
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aoKAW7z.jpg

zMgUYko.jpg


Could something, that is Incapable/Solo/Fine defeat anything?

And how destructive would be unit, that is Divine/Countless/Colossal?
That could describe alien units, that exist in last era of game :p

Also unit that is Divine/Solo/Fine or Incapable/Countless/Fine or Incapable/Solo/Colossal must be pretty funny.
Wonder how that would be used.
Or units like this with few levels below maximum or few levels above minimum.

What happens if I split unit, each of them gets different promotions or even quality changes and then try to merge them back?
 
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@TB: what do you think about changing the exp modifier <iExperiencePercent> for group size -
- from:
80 ▬ 60 ▬ 40 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -40 ▬ -60 ▬ -80 ▬ -100 ▬ -120 ▬ -140 ▬ -160
- to:
140 ▬ 90 ▬ 50 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -50 ▬ -90 ▬ -140 ▬ -200 ▬ -270 ▬ -350 ▬ -440

Perhaps also change it for combat quality -
- from:
100 ▬ 80 ▬ 60 ▬ 40 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -40 ▬ -60 ▬ -80 ▬ -100
- to:
150 ▬ 120 ▬ 90 ▬ 60 ▬ 30 ▬ 0 ▬ -30 ▬ -60 ▬ -90 ▬ -120 ▬ -150
For clarification, a unit with -200 will get 0 or 1/3 xp from combat? If it's the first option, it may be a problem as certain units will simply never get any xp.

Is it ok if I give the blitz promotion a 50% exp penalty, and halve the exp bonus from the leadership promo?
Take this into account with the above changes, as both may be a too big a hit (blitz is useful for big units anyway, which goes with leadership).
 
I assume these are city, defense only units.
Do they gain any additional defensive bonus (such as +200% city defense)?
Can they get any xp? If so, in what ways and how much?
These units are on the level of super-units. If they are just as described (pure power, no additional bonuses, xp from combat) they are strong, but not overly so. If I can build them with +40 xp, and they have a basic +100% city defense (or something), it's going to be near-impossible to kill them. That didn't take into account city defense bonus.
These modifications are pretty much necessary to make these units as powerful as they are without SM, where they are usually the strongest unit of an entire era. With SM however they have a problem, because they cannot merge or split. They are limited to a single unit.

In fact: @Thunderbrd It might be necessary to restrict them even further, so that there can be only one Imperial Guard, regardless of tech - perhaps not right now, unless there is a tag to restrict an entire promotionline to 1 unit.

I had already proposed an extremely limited version, where these units couldn't have been built at all, only upgraded from your original Tribal Guardian (that would have taken care of the promotionline limitation as well). With two additional units between Tribal Guardian and Early Imperial Guard, coming at or around Agriculture and Monarchy. This unit should be about keeping a civ in play for as long as possible (like the Tribal Guardian is supposed to do already for Prehistory) - this way the game might stay interesting for a bit longer, before one civ (usually the player) has completely won. At least the unit unlocked by Agriculture (Capital Guardian? - I hope that doesn't sound like a dragon :)) should still be very much defense-oriented, the following units could be given a more versatile role as long as they were (at least) very hard to rebuild, so that there is a real decision to be made between offense and defense. It should also shift the balance a bit in favor of builder-players, but not overly so: You can overcome these unts, if you are extremely well prepared.
 
For clarification, a unit with -200 will get 0 or 1/3 xp from combat? If it's the first option, it may be a problem as certain units will simply never get any xp.
These changes are multiplicative - "-200%" means 3x reduction in XP gained (or could be 3x more xp needed to level up)
 
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The real problem here is that building a replacement for a lost unit costs hammers, but repairing a damaged unit only costs time. Which means that if you build super units that win 99% of battles, you never have to pay hammers to cover the losses of battle. As you produce hammers anyway, you can use them to build additional units instead, leading to military snowballing.

I recall that in earlier versions of Civ, individual units were connected to individual cities, and upkeep for units was paid for by the food production of those cities. And I vaguely recall that repairing units also costs hammers in the original city. But maybe I'm confusing different strategy games in my mind (I have played several civ clones) .

In civ 4, units are decoupled from cities and I like that, but it also makes repair of units hammer-free. Which is a benefit for the winner, as the loser usually loses his units and has to pay hammers to replace them anyway.

So perhaps it is worth considering to make the repair of units not free, but cost additional money per hitpoint repaired. Which makes waging war much more expensive.
 
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These modifications are pretty much necessary to make these units as powerful as they are without SM, where they are usually the strongest unit of an entire era. With SM however they have a problem, because they cannot merge or split. They are limited to a single unit.
I'm not entirely sure about the power level, but how many times are we talking about? Consider that the modern I.G. has 60*1.5^6, we are talking about heavy tank in strength, and in order to kill it we would need anywhere from 486 to 2229 (depending on how efficient the possible promotions to get) heavy tanks.(I'm assuming the heavy tanks are trained with similar amount of xp as the guardian)
This seem a bit extreme- there is no real point in a single city civ, and it's not like letting that unit rot in that city does much beside annoy players who feel they HAVE to completely kill opposing civs (due to culture reasons, as well as unrest/revolt issues)
 
I'm not entirely sure about the power level, but how many times are we talking about? Consider that the modern I.G. has 60*1.5^6, we are talking about heavy tank in strength, and in order to kill it we would need anywhere from 486 to 2229 (depending on how efficient the possible promotions to get) heavy tanks.(I'm assuming the heavy tanks are trained with similar amount of xp as the guardian)
This seem a bit extreme- there is no real point in a single city civ, and it's not like letting that unit rot in that city does much beside annoy players who feel they HAVE to completely kill opposing civs (due to culture reasons, as well as unrest/revolt issues)
My point is that the Modern I.G. has that strength relative to the other units - in games without SM. Please remember that other units can be merged, they can have quality upgrades (the Modern I.G. as well, but since this unit starts as Epic, it can get a quality upgrade exactly once). Some civs might still have a Clubman from Prehistory (if you play with Start as Minors, it could be the Clubman you start with), upgraded and promoted all the time. As far as I can see, most modern and futuristic units don't have a high base quality, so they can get a lot of quality upgrades. 2229 :strength: doesn't seem that impossibly high in that light. Remember a certain Mounted Infantry? I wonder what strength that unit can reach if it is upgraded now when quality upgrades are kept.

I have a few more ideas for SM, but they are much more involved - not a good idea to start that when a new version is around the corner. And I have not mentioned them so far, but perhaps (just for reference) this would be a good place for it.

Expand unit
If a unit has not reached its highest group volume possible at the time, and the unit is in a city, an "expand" order could be given. The unit is taken from the map and included in the build queue of the city. Once the expand order is fulfilled by the city, the unit returns to the map - exactly one group volume higher, keeping its experience and promotions. Of course, this should be expensive. Perhaps it should require a special building or even the sacrifice of a Great General. If a unit cannot split/merge, this command is unavailable.

Large units need space
This is even more involved than the last point, because it would give certain buildings a completely different purpose from their non-SM variant. I don't think experience points is the best way to show a barrack's effect, but this building certainly gives a lot of space for training. First of all I would like to include the Warrior's Hut in this line - for once it being a civic building should not be a problem, as long as it is the first building of the line. These buildings could be a prerequisite for training / merging large units.

And now the most involved proposal, which would (even if accepted) probably not see the light of day for several versions:

Full control over group volume
If you can merge clans, why not train clans? With an additional button in the city screen, you could preselect a group volume before ordering new units. Of course, some combinations (like Millions of Special Forces) should be discouraged somewhat. The price should be fitting, but be less than three times the smaller size (you could probably reason that this is more efficient than training three units and merging). You should also be able to build small units that way (e.g. if your city is very weak in :hammers:).
 
1) High starting xp makes the unit stronger than the average unit, as it possess more multipliers to its power, and a few key promotions. The highlighted ones are march (heal after moving/attacking), blitz in its various forms (more on this @ 3), and quality up.
This is obviously something a player can keep lower by playing on the More XP to Level option. However, I don't want to really promote that option, so what I'm hearing is that I need to allow only the best combat class bonus within a category of combat classes to matter. This will mean that I need to actually include the category of a combat class in a tag for unitcombats and then work a little magic inside the XP tallying code. I'd make it so that only the best unitcombat was counted, period, except that this would really screw up the LE units, for example, when getting XP for being citizens and getting XP for being law enforcement, both from specialist assignments. I WANT large cities to really be able to pump some XP into them late-game so they can take those higher tier crime control promos that open up as the game goes on. Obviously that requires the specialist xp option to be on but that's an intended combination for the full Combat Mod interaction.

But if I do this by category of unitcombat, then Mounted and Melee, being in the same category, would not both give their XP to the Mounted Infantry, only the larger of the two sources would.

I'll have to make that a v39 project. (Raledon... maybe you could help with the coding on some of this stuff now that we've gotten you up to speed on DLL compiling? I'm willing to bet this makes sense to you and I could help guide you to where certain things are taking place if you need it.)

2) Good base means many things, but we are mostly looking at a unit with a decent base strength, high movement, high base xp. The mounted infantry is perfect, as it starts with high xp, can be upgraded to knights to mitigate its weak-point to bonuses against melee, while possessing the movement of cavalry and commando.
I'm not sure what can be said about the base in this case BUT you point out that knights, being on the line of dismounting mounted warriors, should also have the melee combat class. That would be a bit of a bug that stems from land units not having gotten the FULL chart investigation yet. If the mounted infantry does not have commando, neither should the knight either... not sure how that pans out.

3) Noble grants a key promotion- blitz. This means that if the unit is strong enough to kill 5 units in a turn, it will. This effectively increase the rate of growth from anywhere between 1 to 15 times (remember that with commando, if a single unit is on a tile with road, we won't need a full movement to kill it). This is combined with MI easily getting 2+1+3 movement, so they can kill 6 units/turn without getting +movement promotions.
Interesting point. hmm... this shouldn't really be a big problem if they are countered properly by defenses. However, it IS sounding like Dynamic XP pairs well with SM to keep some abuses from taking place. I played an SM game in Prehistory recently and it took me a minute to figure out I was on Dynamic XP so the reduced XP gains for 'easy' wins shouldn't be such a bad thing for balance's sake. I COULD enforce Dynamic XP on SM but that seems a little rude. Still, getting a min of a full pre-modified 1 XP is a big part of what is making this possible.

4)Herbalist Heals a unit instantly, negating one of the major SM downsides. A normal unit will be badly hurt after killing 2-3 units, even if relatively strong. The herbalist, in conjunction with high movement and march, allows our units to kill a few units, and when hurt to go directly back to a friendly city with a herbalist.
So what commonly happens is: kill a couple of units, end turn in a city. Next turn, kill a couple of units, and go back. Repeat as needed.
I've seen how this can be abused in other ways, even non-SM ways. I'm not going to say we need to change it but it would be possible to change, as suggested by others, its effect on SM at least. 2 ways to go about that, one would be to create an alternative building definition for SM and the other would be to make its tag work differently on SM. Given that on SM that tag, used anywhere, would cause a potential issue, perhaps I should change the tag. However, this could easily be a major issue on a normal game too - I'm currently facing some similar speed x power quandries with unchecked Heroes in the main MP game and I shudder to think of what this building would be able to do to back him up further.

Besides, the Herbalist was put in play long before the healing system change. It could be toned down a lot and still be a very valuable building now that we have a more granular means of measuring benefits to healing in the city. Hmm...

5) XP is linear in growth. This means that -10% xp is exactly the same as +10%. This is an issue since in terms of bonuses, we can get 200%+ bonus xp quite easily (noble gives +100%, great commander +100%, and you get more with time). A unit that was combined twice (9 units) would normally have roughly -40% to xp. With a noble, it will have +60%, almost 3 times as its former value (60 vs 160). Combine this with the unit being a lot stronger, and we ignore the downside of slower xp growth.
Yeah, sounds like +XP% usage should be toned down a lot, at least for SM. I don't want to have to address this by differentiating the value of whether the % adjust came from unitcombats or promotions or some other kind of player confusing way to multiplicatively tally things up.

6) Power grows exponentially from XP. We have 3 types of combat modifiers: bonus to us, reduction to the enemy and quality up (QU). The issue is mostly might up and QU.
QU grows exponentially, so when enough xp is amassed, a unit will become stronger by leaps and bounds. 3 QU will make the unit almost 3.5 times as strong.
In addition, the might up promotions are improved as you gain quality up. A normal unit's might up grants +1 base power, but a high quality one will get +3 base power. This means that while a normal unit may get (X+1*5) base power, a high ranked one will get (X+3*5)*(1.5)^3. If the unit's base is 8 (mounted infantry), it will be 13 vs 77, or 6 times as high base power.
I'm not against eliminating the Strength up promotion lines and turning them into just one line of +1 bonuses. I was running the current structure as a test to see if I could give Quality a little more value but I think it just ends up giving quality too much value.

There's a lot more to comment on in this discussion so I'll say more later as I can.
 
only the best combat class bonus within a category of combat classes to matter.
Umm... This is indeed an interesting option.
In general, this might affect some of the criminal (or one of the stealthed types) as they gain a similar bonus as archers, and many of the later era cavalries that count as both mounted and gunpowder.
This should help balance them (cavalry) against the other units, as they gain the movement speed in exchange for being possibly worse in combat.
In the worst case that it's too much of a downside, the strength bonus against them might go at the same fashion- the better wins, so a pikeman and axeman will both get a very good bonus, but axeman with anti-cavalry promotion won't be better.

I WANT large cities to really be able to pump some XP into them late-game so they can take those higher tier crime control promos that open up as the game goes on.
While it might not be the correct way to go about it, an option to solve this:
LE gets experience as civilians/LE, the same way that units will get xp for being combatants/melee. This means they won't get as much XP from buildings.
In addition, higher tier units will get some free promotions. This is done in for two reasons: a) Newer units shouldn't be under-trained compared to their predecessors when it comes to policing (if anything, they should be better at it) and b) it balances the "I wish I could build lower tier for more effective crime control" (as a higher level promotion grants a much higher effect than a low level one)


I'll have to make that a v39 project. (Raledon... maybe you could help with the coding on some of this stuff now that we've gotten you up to speed on DLL compiling? I'm willing to bet this makes sense to you and I could help guide you to where certain things are taking place if you need it.)
In general, sure.
Currently working a bit on the xml-enum generalization so that the XML guys could change their mission's order, and such. I got the parsing part done, and I'll talk with you (hopefully) tomorrow when it's finished on plugging it to the DLL .

I'm not sure what can be said about the base in this case BUT you point out that knights, being on the line of dismounting mounted warriors, should also have the melee combat class. That would be a bit of a bug that stems from land units not having gotten the FULL chart investigation yet. If the mounted infantry does not have commando, neither should the knight either... not sure how that pans out.
There is Knight and Mail Knight units. In terms of stats, I have yet to find a difference. We could refactor one to be in the mounted infantry chain, and the other to be in the cavalry chain.
The ~20 power units also have multiple guys, one could be changed for that role, so that only when melee weapons become obsolete they switch to gunpowder.
It might be possible to do this for the other mounted units as well, so that an horse-archer will count as both archer and mounted (it might be so, but I seem to remember it as not being the case).
This will, essentially, give a bigger downside to using mounted units. At the same time, It will be a choice which units to build, aside from raw power/bonuses (I've rarely felt I have a meaningful choice)

In regards to commando specifically, I've come to find it as a really bad promotion when it's freely given to all mounted units.
Beside how it helps steam-rolling units rampage in the opponent's territory, it means there is no real way to stop units from running amok inside your territory. A highwayman, for example, could go about 24 tiles (X6 speed or so from roads at that era, 4 movement). This allows him to be at the heart of your empire to cause trouble without any real way to oppose it. It also means that you ought to have cavalry for defense, as a normal walking unit may be unable to catch up to it (and we don't want a strong unit in every city).
I could see it as something a noble/great commander grants, and as a promotion given to normal units at a later era, though.
Another option (I think?) would be to separate commando into two promotions, the first giving road using up to 1/2 (so a unit moving on a 1/6 road moves at 1/2 still), and the second allows full utilization. It's still a strong freebie to mounted units, but it will be harder to rampage.
In other words- units with commando move too much.

I'm not against eliminating the Strength up promotion lines and turning them into just one line of +1 bonuses. I was running the current structure as a test to see if I could give Quality a little more value but I think it just ends up giving quality too much value.
As I noted further in the post (saying here in case you miss this line of thought when you read later), the might up is a really good promotion at the early game. It's quite fun that, for a change, I'm thinking about which promotion will be more effective.
At later ages, +1 is close to nothing, though, so it might be better to link the promotions to unit's era instead of the unit's quality. A +0.5*era (or some other number) base sounds like it will keep the promotion as a viable choice as the game progresses.
 
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LE gets experience as civilians/LE, the same way that units will get xp for being combatants/melee. This means they won't get as much XP from buildings.
This is already the case. The category factor, though, would mean that civilian xp and LE xp would both go towards an LE unit because those combat classes are not in competing categories. (See the link I gave earlier to the combat class charts to see what's in what combat class category.)

There is Knight and Mail Knight units. In terms of stats, I have yet to find a difference. We could refactor one to be in the mounted infantry chain, and the other to be in the cavalry chain.
I did this half assed earlier this year. It needs to be done full assed.

It might be possible to do this for the other mounted units as well, so that an horse-archer will count as both archer and mounted (it might be so, but I seem to remember it as not being the case).
This will, essentially, give a bigger downside to using mounted units. At the same time, It will be a choice which units to build, aside from raw power/bonuses (I've rarely felt I have a meaningful choice)
Yeah, all intended stuff with a full land unit review.

In regards to commando specifically, I've come to find it as a really bad promotion when it's freely given to all mounted units.
Beside how it helps steam-rolling units rampage in the opponent's territory, it means there is no real way to stop units from running amok inside your territory. A highwayman, for example, could go about 24 tiles (X6 speed or so from roads at that era, 4 movement). This allows him to be at the heart of your empire to cause trouble without any real way to oppose it. It also means that you ought to have cavalry for defense, as a normal walking unit may be unable to catch up to it (and we don't want a strong unit in every city).
I could see it as something a noble/great commander grants, and as a promotion given to normal units at a later era, though.
Another option (I think?) would be to separate commando into two promotions, the first giving road using up to 1/2 (so a unit moving on a 1/6 road moves at 1/2 still), and the second allows full utilization. It's still a strong freebie to mounted units, but it will be harder to rampage.
In other words- units with commando move too much.
Agreed with the diagnosis. I don't want to have to undertake the project but I do agree with it.

As I noted further in the post (saying here in case you miss this line of thought when you read later), the might up is a really good promotion at the early game. It's quite fun that, for a change, I'm thinking about which promotion will be more effective.
At later ages, +1 is close to nothing, though, so it might be better to link the promotions to unit's era instead of the unit's quality. A +0.5*era (or some other number) base sounds like it will keep the promotion as a viable choice as the game progresses.
Either that or we just allow it to be something that diffuses a bit by era. The late game actually gives as much reason for this because I know the high numbers will be fouling up combat anyhow and needing some work in the code to get around that. This might help to delay that as a problem now that players are actually reaching later eras.

Maybe every 3 levels or so of that promotion and we start giving another +1 or something and we limit to one additional level per era with tech prequals.
 
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QU could possible stop being exponential. Instead of 1.5^QU, it could be (1+0.5*QU). So a unit with 3 quality ups will be "only" 2.5 times stronger than a normal unit, instead of 3.5 times. Alternatively, QU could have a lower curve- for example, 1.5, 1.45, 1.4 and so on. A 3 QU will be 3 times as strong, and a 6 QU will be 6.7 times as strong, instead of 11.4 times as strong. Both examples will keep QU as a very desirable promotion, but not as game breaking compared to none-QU units.

I CAN reduce the impact of a shift from 150% to something less than that but I think it would mess with fundamental underlying balance of production to power too much and possibly some other balance factors. So while it can be done it's not a preferred method of addressing things. It would diminish the role of a rank shift.

Alternatively, we could re-introduce the "no upgrades" to QU units (as a feature rather than a bug), so they will become obsolete at some point. I'm against this idea, though.
Yeah, no.

*While small, one thing that helps us increase the speed slightly is letting the units carry other units. If we carry the siege weapons, we can increase the speed of taking over cities. If we carry captives, workers and similar captured units, we get the full benefits with none of the "risk" normally associated with marauding cavalry.
This isn't working quite as intended and won't be until a major debug project. I'm going to have to overhaul some things about this to allow multiple specialunittype designations for carry on a given unit. The intention of this early land carry ability was ONLY to allow for the carrying of captives, NOT any other units. SM may not like this limitation and thus allows any other unit to be carried as well. It will require some code review. You said that this was one of the issues but you shouldn't be able to load up siege units, for example.

Alright. I think I've got it.
Ok, if you've got that, check out this Expanding Unit Review Document
I updated a lot of the pages to the latest information the other day but not ALL pages are perfectly updated yet. THIS is where a unit line gets reviewed. I put this here somewhat as an example. Can you work with an Excel document (2007)? If so I can share my Excel document that is much more up to date and prepared for a lot more tag evaluations. I have not reviewed all units yet. But you can see how those I have are getting a full exploration of the gradients of their abilities as they upgrade.

Just as an example, check out the Law Enforcement units.

It is on this kind of chart that I hope to fully evaluate all unit lines, thus if you would like to take a shot at plotting out the IG line there, and plan in the additional units you were hoping for, I'm happy to let you have at it. The Tribal Guardian is currently a first LE line unit but I can see how it would be cool to be an Imperial Guard unit.

Both the Tribal Guardian and all the IG's have an SM Rank of 15:

  • Tribal Guardian: Medium Size, Squad Group, Exceptional Quality => Size 5, Group 3, Qual 7 (Prehistory: 1)
  • Early IG, G.d.C., Modern IG: Medium, Company Group, Superior Quality => Size 5, Group 4, Qual 6 (Medieval: 4, Renaissance: 5, Modern: 7)
  • Robot IG: Large Size, Solo Group, Elite Quality => Size 6, Group 1, Qual 8 (Nano: 9)
If these units should have 1 bonus less than the era number, the Tribal Guardian is ok, the Early IG needs 3 Boni, the G.d.C. 4 Boni, the Modern I.G. 6 Boni, the Robot I.G. 8 Boni. I think the following would be good:

Early I.G.
Medium Size, Batallion Group, Elite Quality

Original Strength: 18
New Strength: 18 * 1.5^3 = 60.75

Guard du Corps
Medium Size, Forces Group, Elite Quality

Original Strength: 30
New Strength: 30 * 1.5^4 = 151.875

Modern I.G.
Medium Size, Clan Group, Epic Quality

Original Strength: 60
New Strength: 60 * 1.5^6 = 683.4375

Robot I.G.
Large Size, Horde Group, Epic Quality (at this point the Industry should make mass production even of these beasts possible, and the number of robots doesn't matter for AI programming anyway)

Original Strength: 200

New Strength: 200 * 1.5^8 = 5125.78125
Looks about right at first glance.
 
I assume these are city, defense only units.
Do they gain any additional defensive bonus (such as +200% city defense)?
Can they get any xp? If so, in what ways and how much?
These units are on the level of super-units. If they are just as described (pure power, no additional bonuses, xp from combat) they are strong, but not overly so. If I can build them with +40 xp, and they have a basic +100% city defense (or something), it's going to be near-impossible to kill them. That didn't take into account city defense bonus.
Take into account, however, that it is a shift under what you can merge military attack units into during the same era, which basically means they are countered once you have as strong a city attack unit as can be mustered. Yes, they could get promotions like any other unit but being defense only, they would have a hard time getting all that much unless a lot is ineffectively thrown at them.
@TB: what do you think about changing the exp modifier <iExperiencePercent> for group size -
- from:
80 ▬ 60 ▬ 40 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -40 ▬ -60 ▬ -80 ▬ -100 ▬ -120 ▬ -140 ▬ -160
- to:
140 ▬ 90 ▬ 50 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -50 ▬ -90 ▬ -140 ▬ -200 ▬ -270 ▬ -350 ▬ -440

Perhaps also change it for combat quality -
- from:
100 ▬ 80 ▬ 60 ▬ 40 ▬ 20 ▬ 0 ▬ -20 ▬ -40 ▬ -60 ▬ -80 ▬ -100
- to:
150 ▬ 120 ▬ 90 ▬ 60 ▬ 30 ▬ 0 ▬ -30 ▬ -60 ▬ -90 ▬ -120 ▬ -150
I don't think this is the way to go because it is linear, as pointed out, and such modifications would make it very easy to reach a point where you are getting no xp from anything ever. It would be better to tone down the sources of bonuses. These are additive and then a % modifier total. I'm surprised that even with +200% that a heavily quality increased and heavily merged unit like those Mounted Infantry, aren't finding themselves capped out at some point earlier. Perhaps it should be adjusted... I just find this chart a bit too strong. I actually like the one for Quality though... maybe it can go the same way for Size (size goes further ranks out).

And then if we do this, we shouldn't need to cut down the leadership and so on promos. I'm kinda liking a small decrease in XP for blitz but 50% is too much... maybe 20%?

I also would like to change the unit upkeep cost modifier on group size -
- from:
-80 ▬ -60 ▬ -40 ▬ -20 ▬ 0 ▬ 20 ▬ 40 ▬ 60 ▬ 80 ▬ 100 ▬ 120 ▬ 140 ▬ 160
- to:
0 ▬ 50 ▬ 100 ▬ 200 ▬ 400 ▬ 800 ▬ 1600 ▬ 3200 ▬ 6400 ▬ 12800 ▬ 25600 ▬ 51200 ▬ 102400

gold upkeep per group size are then:
1 ▬ 1.50 ▬ 2 ▬ 3 ▬ 5 ▬ 9 ▬ 17 ▬ 33 ▬ 65 ▬ 129 ▬ 257 ▬ 513 ▬ 1025
One Solo cost 1 :gold:
One Party cost 1.5 :gold:
One Squad cost 2 :gold:
...
One Horde cost 33 :gold:
One Multitudes cost 65 :gold:
etc.

One problem would be that units upkeep would be wildly different on a SM game than a non-SM game... Not sure that really is a problem or not...
Yeah, that would be a problem... I can agree it probably needs to differ more strongly but that would be too much imo. You're using a +50% each step... try +25% onto each step and see if that keeps things a bit more reasonable. After unit reviews there should be a bit more base upkeep on many units so we need to leave some room and we also need to not have to adjust the economy all that greatly between SM and non SM I think or we'll enter into a realm that lies deep in the hidden recesses of Joseph's nightmares. SM or not, I'm having a tough time economically in the early game already.


Why some animas have one of highest quality levels (Elite/Epic/Divine)?
Because quality isn't combat experience. It's psychological combat willing mindset, ferocity and combat 6th sense. Many animals have a very high rating on this and its what makes the unit combat capable of harming human units despite their size and volume. It's not the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog.
What happens if I split unit, each of them gets different promotions or even quality changes and then try to merge them back?
They won't be able to because a unit must merge with other units of the same type and quality rating is part of the definition of 'type' in this case. You can't merge units that don't match qualities.

And this brings me to another resolution point.

We spoke much earlier in this thread about forcing units to split. Some of those dynamics could really help to counter some of the kinds of runaway unit success we've seen. If, say, a unit dies after inflicting more than half the health of the opponent unit, then the opponent unit automatically splits, one of it's thirds is considered dead casualties and the other two divide out the remaining health loss between them (after subtracting 1/3d of the max health of the unit from the damage) then we counter the idea that unless the whole unit dies, all the individual beings in the unit die and allow for some of those individuals in the unit to be considered fatalities while the rest are actually really alive and healing. This would help a lot I think. Certainly adds another level of risk to combat. A consolation win (despite being defeated) could be that your opponent unit is left incapable of remerging with the other half because there aren't any other equivalent quality units of the same group size to be had without really working at earning it again, which is a whole new challenge to grow that smaller unit.

The real problem here is that building a replacement for a lost unit costs hammers, but repairing a damaged unit only costs time. Which means that if you build super units that win 99% of battles, you never have to pay hammers to cover the losses of battle. As you produce hammers anyway, you can use them to build additional units instead, leading to military snowballing.

I recall that in earlier versions of Civ, individual units were connected to individual cities, and upkeep for units was paid for by the food production of those cities. And I vaguely recall that repairing units also costs hammers in the original city. But maybe I'm confusing different strategy games in my mind (I have played several civ clones) .

In civ 4, units are decoupled from cities and I like that, but it also makes repair of units hammer-free. Which is a benefit for the winner, as the loser usually loses his units and has to pay hammers to replace them anyway.

So perhaps it is worth considering to make the repair of units not free, but cost additional money per hitpoint repaired. Which makes waging war much more expensive.
Interesting thoughts. I think, however, that the aforementioned project of halvsies being splits (if the unit CAN be split) would represent this factor. Those that were lost in this equation are actually dead and need retraining and may not even be able to remerge with the original 2 units that remain until they make themselves the equal of the original two (and those don't die waiting for that to happen.) Thus, this naturally means you ARE replacing those that died in this manner and those that didn't are actually just wounded and healing (capable of returning to battle at some point.)


More tomorrow.
 
Because quality isn't combat experience. It's psychological combat willing mindset, ferocity and combat 6th sense. Many animals have a very high rating on this and its what makes the unit combat capable of harming human units despite their size and volume. It's not the size of the dog in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the dog.
So minimum combat quality is pacifist as Dalai Lama and never saw any combat, when it comes to size of fight :p
And maximum combat quality is basically like Rambo or James Bond or Terminator (all those characters would fight until the end, and fight is their middle name).

They won't be able to because a unit must merge with other units of the same type and quality rating is part of the definition of 'type' in this case. You can't merge units that don't match qualities.

And this brings me to another resolution point.

We spoke much earlier in this thread about forcing units to split. Some of those dynamics could really help to counter some of the kinds of runaway unit success we've seen. If, say, a unit dies after inflicting more than half the health of the opponent unit, then the opponent unit automatically splits, one of it's thirds is considered dead casualties and the other two divide out the remaining health loss between them (after subtracting 1/3d of the max health of the unit from the damage) then we counter the idea that unless the whole unit dies, all the individual beings in the unit die and allow for some of those individuals in the unit to be considered fatalities while the rest are actually really alive and healing. This would help a lot I think. Certainly adds another level of risk to combat. A consolation win (despite being defeated) could be that your opponent unit is left incapable of remerging with the other half because there aren't any other equivalent quality units of the same group size to be had without really working at earning it again, which is a whole new challenge to grow that smaller unit.
If I split my unit, one of them earns any kind of promotion, then I can't merge them back, unless other two units gain same promotion, right?
 
If I split my unit, one of them earns any kind of promotion, then I can't merge them back, unless other two units gain same promotion, right?
No... you just have to make sure that you're merging with units of the same type, quality, and group volume. Other promotion variations can exist. If they all three have the same promotions when they merge then you have a unit that gets the promos of all 3. Free ones on the primary merge starting unit stay but the rest lose any free promos they've been given (this includes attached leaders). If there are disagreements on promotions, the resulting unit loses those and may retrain. XP is averaged between the three.

Your comment is correct although most of those examples strike me more as Epic or Legendary. A Jedi (light OR dark) may be a good example of Divine. (Imagine every one of your Mounted Infantry are basically endowed with Jedi combat mindset - completely aware and in the moment, actually ahead of the moment in terms of thinking strategically, completely fearless and endowed with a meditative 6th sense that allows them to dodge and deflect attacks with uncanny accuracy, as if God himself was acting through them all. At this point you can see how they can easily take out quite a few tanks when they are all this mentally combat ready AND they are the size of a huge horde.)
 
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