TheOverseer714
Overseer
I guess the real question on Factories and Hoover Dam is: Will we be modernizing our army and navy to finish this, in which case we need a high shield core?
New Succession Game
- Thread starter Own
- Start date
ThinkTank
RL Addict
I agree with Optionals analysis. Moreover I think that as we do not strictly need anymore technology, we should use our economy for rushing and shortrushing military, which makes the whole argument for high productivity cities less important.
TheOverseer714's question is the real one we should be focusing on. Can we win until the AI gets infantry to defend their cities? Cavalry units are struggling even against rifles.
I think we should decide on three things before I play my turns:
1. are we going for domination or conquest?
2. when do we stop the research? We need marines if we go for conquest as there is a one tile island. Alternatively, get the town in a peace treaty and then wipe the civ off after waiting 20 turns. Or, screw the ethics and break the peace treaty before that.
3. Hoover's and factories or no? Already discussed but not really any consensus yet.
These three are all linked. If we for conquest, we'll need marines and probably tanks as well. In that case, Hoover's and factories would make sense. If we go for conquest and only capture the lands of the weaker enemies, we can pretty much stop researching right now and only build cav/inf/boats/settlers from now on.
I think we should decide on three things before I play my turns:
1. are we going for domination or conquest?
2. when do we stop the research? We need marines if we go for conquest as there is a one tile island. Alternatively, get the town in a peace treaty and then wipe the civ off after waiting 20 turns. Or, screw the ethics and break the peace treaty before that.
3. Hoover's and factories or no? Already discussed but not really any consensus yet.
These three are all linked. If we for conquest, we'll need marines and probably tanks as well. In that case, Hoover's and factories would make sense. If we go for conquest and only capture the lands of the weaker enemies, we can pretty much stop researching right now and only build cav/inf/boats/settlers from now on.
Optional
Deity
I might be missing something, but earlier most of us didn't seem to care what units the AI would get to when we gifted Greece into the IA.
Also mass production could be interesting for us because it would allow us to ship 4-unit armies between Greece and the rest of the other continent with carriers. I really don't care about breaking rep towards the end of the game when rep doesn't matter to us anymore.Salarakas said:
We've never been able to reach consensus in this game!Salarakas said:
Overseer, Daeron and Own seem to favour factories (although I'm slightly guessing on Own here), and Thinktank and me are thinking we can do without.The difference between Conquest and Domination might not be all that big. I believe in Eldar08 the targeted victory condition was Domination, but towards the end of the game it became pretty uncertain whether that was possible without reaching Conquest first. That was a game with no culture, so that made Domination difficult, with a lot of uncovered coast and sea, but we don't have that much culture either. I haven't done the exact maths, but I expect the difference between Conquest and Domination will just be a couple of towns, not a couple of civs.
We're agricultural, so going for domination shouldn't be that hard.
On factories, change my opinion to "no opinion." I almost always build them without thinking, and they're always a humongous help, but I rarely play solo GOTM or HoF games, only high level, possibly varianted games, so my concern is "just win baby," not the fastest win. Whether we build factories or not, we are going to win this game, be it military or SS. Will it be quicker one way or another? I don't really know.
I'd probably continue to research towards tanks. We don't want to shut down our research only to find that AIs now have infantry and that our cavalry aren't doing so well against them, even with artillery support.
On factories, change my opinion to "no opinion." I almost always build them without thinking, and they're always a humongous help, but I rarely play solo GOTM or HoF games, only high level, possibly varianted games, so my concern is "just win baby," not the fastest win. Whether we build factories or not, we are going to win this game, be it military or SS. Will it be quicker one way or another? I don't really know.
I'd probably continue to research towards tanks. We don't want to shut down our research only to find that AIs now have infantry and that our cavalry aren't doing so well against them, even with artillery support.
If you feel like the game's in the barrel and you just want to expedite the tech process.
I only played 3 turns today but the Dutch are now eliminated. I'll continue tomorrow and prepare our mighty civilization for the invasion of the other continent.
Edit: turnlog for the first three turns:
Preturn: There's a couple of artillery that haven't fired yet so use them to bombard a rifle and a longbow near Dordrecht and take them both out with cavs [2-0].
Some of the towns aren't optimized for shields and are getting massive amounts of extra food. Understandable though since since we are advancing and not everything is railed yet. I'll see if I can spend some worker turns on that during my set.
Change some silly builds like courthouses on mostly corrupt towns - the game won't last that long that they would have any real effect. We need settlers and artillery much more.
Sell some improvements in captured Dutch towns. They are way corrupt and will probably flip anyway.
IBT:
Lose a cav on a mountain although it beats one longbow before dying [3-1].
Turn 1 - 960 AD:
War weariness is already high. I guess we'll want this war finished as soon as possible even if it means more losses.
The southern island with two Dutch towns, 12 cavs of ours with no artillery support - the town that was size 7 is now size 6 probably because of a draft. Nice of them to get rid of the 50% defence bonus.
Decide to attack and raze both towns although lose four cavs in the process. [9-5]
There's only one town on the mainland that I could attack this turn but I probably wouldn't be able to move any proper defs inside it after capturing it as the key tiles would still be under Dutch culture borders. Instead, I move a couple of settlers I built last IBT onto nice spots which will help next turn. Most cavs are injured anyway and need to heal now. I should be able to attack all but one town on the mainland next turn.
Here's the plan: towns in red squares, road in yellow.
Kill two obsolete Egyptian units that were landed on the eastermost island. I want to evaquate our cavs from that island but there are three Dutch frigates in sight and none of ours. Guess they'll be stuck there until the Dutch are gone. [11-5]
Decide to fill up the empty army and land it next to Den Helder.
IBT:
One cav attacks and loses [12-5]
Turn 2 - 970 AD
Bombard and capture Harlingen [16-5].
Ditto for The Hague [20-5].
Ditto for Gouda [24-5].
Ditto for Delft [28-5].
Ditto for Middelburg [24-6].
Out of artillery so can't attack Eindhoven. Wouldn't have enough cavs anyway. With some luck the Dutch will be dead next turn.
The army outside Den Helder takes out one rifle but is redlined so have to evacuate it back to the safety of the mainland for healing. Then I notice that I had another army that I had left healing on the previous turn and could've shipped it out there to cover the wounded one. Doh.
MM the science slider and the specialists to the absolute max (i.e. changing one scientist to a taxman would get the next tech in 2 turns rather than 1. I do this always by the way, just haven't mentioned this yet)
IBT:
Go 4-0 on defence. Infantry rules. [28-6]
Scientific method is in, our prebuild for Theory Of Evolution will still take 10 turns though.
Turn 3 - 980 AD
Take out 3 units outside The Hague [31-6]
Capture Den Helder [36-6].
Capture Eindhoven [41-6].
Capture Leiden and eliminate the Dutch [45-6].
Edit: turnlog for the first three turns:
Preturn: There's a couple of artillery that haven't fired yet so use them to bombard a rifle and a longbow near Dordrecht and take them both out with cavs [2-0].
Some of the towns aren't optimized for shields and are getting massive amounts of extra food. Understandable though since since we are advancing and not everything is railed yet. I'll see if I can spend some worker turns on that during my set.
Change some silly builds like courthouses on mostly corrupt towns - the game won't last that long that they would have any real effect. We need settlers and artillery much more.
Sell some improvements in captured Dutch towns. They are way corrupt and will probably flip anyway.
IBT:
Lose a cav on a mountain although it beats one longbow before dying [3-1].
Turn 1 - 960 AD:
War weariness is already high. I guess we'll want this war finished as soon as possible even if it means more losses.
The southern island with two Dutch towns, 12 cavs of ours with no artillery support - the town that was size 7 is now size 6 probably because of a draft. Nice of them to get rid of the 50% defence bonus.
Decide to attack and raze both towns although lose four cavs in the process. [9-5]
There's only one town on the mainland that I could attack this turn but I probably wouldn't be able to move any proper defs inside it after capturing it as the key tiles would still be under Dutch culture borders. Instead, I move a couple of settlers I built last IBT onto nice spots which will help next turn. Most cavs are injured anyway and need to heal now. I should be able to attack all but one town on the mainland next turn.
Here's the plan: towns in red squares, road in yellow.
Spoiler :
Kill two obsolete Egyptian units that were landed on the eastermost island. I want to evaquate our cavs from that island but there are three Dutch frigates in sight and none of ours. Guess they'll be stuck there until the Dutch are gone. [11-5]
Decide to fill up the empty army and land it next to Den Helder.
IBT:
One cav attacks and loses [12-5]
Turn 2 - 970 AD
Spoiler :
Bombard and capture Harlingen [16-5].
Ditto for The Hague [20-5].
Ditto for Gouda [24-5].
Ditto for Delft [28-5].
Ditto for Middelburg [24-6].
Out of artillery so can't attack Eindhoven. Wouldn't have enough cavs anyway. With some luck the Dutch will be dead next turn.
The army outside Den Helder takes out one rifle but is redlined so have to evacuate it back to the safety of the mainland for healing. Then I notice that I had another army that I had left healing on the previous turn and could've shipped it out there to cover the wounded one. Doh.
MM the science slider and the specialists to the absolute max (i.e. changing one scientist to a taxman would get the next tech in 2 turns rather than 1. I do this always by the way, just haven't mentioned this yet)
IBT:
Go 4-0 on defence. Infantry rules. [28-6]
Scientific method is in, our prebuild for Theory Of Evolution will still take 10 turns though.
Turn 3 - 980 AD
Take out 3 units outside The Hague [31-6]
Capture Den Helder [36-6].
Capture Eindhoven [41-6].
Capture Leiden and eliminate the Dutch [45-6].
TheOverseer714
Overseer
Great work Salarakas! I knew we had enough troops and artillery to make this a short war, without waiting for artillery on the saltpeter island. Now we can consolidate our gains and choose our next target. I am kind of leaning toward Egypt as our next target, with Rome as my second choice. I like Conquest as the desired VC, though with our need to raze, it almost seems the easier way. Domination might require holding some enemy cities, which at this level and our tiny amount of culture could be rough.
TheOverseer714 said:
I doubt this would work out as nearly as bad as you believe. The top three highest scoring Sid games all played capture and keep and they almost surely had a worse human-AI culture ratio than you guys. Plus once you exterminate a civ it won't flip back to them.
What now? We'll of course want to invade the other continent but using which route? I think about this for quite some time. I eventually decide it's best to use our westernmost tip as the starting point and sail west. It takes two turns to reach the Arabian shores. Our boats are nowhere near though so it will take some time to set this up.
In the mean time I make peace with the Greeks. We don't want them to mess with our few boats and the WW will start hurting too eventually. Egypt won't talk to us yet.
Set most core towns to work on factories.
IBT:
Rome and Egypt sign a trade embargo against us.
Turn 4 - 990 AD
zzz
IBT:
The trade with the Arabs ends and we lose two luxes. They are our next target and we are at a point in the game where we can live without the help of anyone else so I don't renegotiate the deal.
Turn 5 - 1000 AD
We need at least about a dozen galleons for the invasion. Disband all our obsolete non-elite units in the westernmost towns to speed up the galleon builds. Also rush one build. Most of our boats will take 4-5 turns to get there.
IBT:
zzz
Turn 6 - 1010 AD
Rush some more galleons.
IBT:
Corporation is in, can finish one more tech (steel) before the Theory Of Evolution is done.
Turn 7 - 1020 AD
A couple more rushes.
IBT:
Three Persian boats come into view. They'll most likely declare war soon. They are still down scientific method and replaceable parts. They are paying us 129gpt at the moment so we'll likely lose that.
Turn 8 - 1030 AD
zzz
IBT:
Another big stack of Persian boats approaches our core from the west but they don't declare yet. Good thing as they could sink some of our galleons.
Turn 9 - 1040 AD
zzz
IBT:
Persia drops four units near our capital but don't declare yet.
Turn 10 - 1050 AD
Tell Xerxes to bugger off and he declares. Redline the troops and all his ships and get four elite wins but no leader [47-6]
In the mean time I make peace with the Greeks. We don't want them to mess with our few boats and the WW will start hurting too eventually. Egypt won't talk to us yet.
Set most core towns to work on factories.
IBT:
Rome and Egypt sign a trade embargo against us.
Turn 4 - 990 AD
zzz
IBT:
The trade with the Arabs ends and we lose two luxes. They are our next target and we are at a point in the game where we can live without the help of anyone else so I don't renegotiate the deal.
Turn 5 - 1000 AD
We need at least about a dozen galleons for the invasion. Disband all our obsolete non-elite units in the westernmost towns to speed up the galleon builds. Also rush one build. Most of our boats will take 4-5 turns to get there.
IBT:
zzz
Turn 6 - 1010 AD
Rush some more galleons.
IBT:
Corporation is in, can finish one more tech (steel) before the Theory Of Evolution is done.
Turn 7 - 1020 AD
A couple more rushes.
IBT:
Three Persian boats come into view. They'll most likely declare war soon. They are still down scientific method and replaceable parts. They are paying us 129gpt at the moment so we'll likely lose that.
Turn 8 - 1030 AD
zzz
IBT:
Another big stack of Persian boats approaches our core from the west but they don't declare yet. Good thing as they could sink some of our galleons.
Turn 9 - 1040 AD
zzz
IBT:
Persia drops four units near our capital but don't declare yet.
Turn 10 - 1050 AD
Tell Xerxes to bugger off and he declares. Redline the troops and all his ships and get four elite wins but no leader [47-6]
Most of our units are fortified next to our capital in various stacks (armies, artillery, elite units, cavs, inf, settlers).
We now have 15 galleons plus some frigates in Leiden. Some more will reach it in a couple of turns. The invasion of the other continent can then begin.
Be sure to load the following things in them:
- at least one settler for the beachhead town
- all four armies (takes 16 places in the boats)
- most infantries (we have 13 veterans)
- most elite units for leader fishing (at least 6 cavs and 1 inf)
- most artillery units. I would leave some (e.g. 8) on the homeland to help with the defence. We have 28 I think so ship about 20.
- cavs
Steel will be researched in 2 turns. Theory Of Evolution will also be done in 2 turns. Can anyone confirm if this is ok or whether we should delay ToE by one turn in order to get two nice techs rather than steel and something else? I always play safe in my solo games so I'm not sure.
Decision for the team: which two free techs should we go for? Refining and combustion would actually make more sense than atomic theory and electronics as the latter would only get us the Hoover's Dam (which we don't really need) while the former would get us oil and better boats and get us closer to flight/tanks if we want them. We could actually upgrade some of our galleons to transports and ship more troops across the pond that way.
We now have 15 galleons plus some frigates in Leiden. Some more will reach it in a couple of turns. The invasion of the other continent can then begin.
Spoiler :
Be sure to load the following things in them:
- at least one settler for the beachhead town
- all four armies (takes 16 places in the boats)
- most infantries (we have 13 veterans)
- most elite units for leader fishing (at least 6 cavs and 1 inf)
- most artillery units. I would leave some (e.g. 8) on the homeland to help with the defence. We have 28 I think so ship about 20.
- cavs
Steel will be researched in 2 turns. Theory Of Evolution will also be done in 2 turns. Can anyone confirm if this is ok or whether we should delay ToE by one turn in order to get two nice techs rather than steel and something else? I always play safe in my solo games so I'm not sure.
Decision for the team: which two free techs should we go for? Refining and combustion would actually make more sense than atomic theory and electronics as the latter would only get us the Hoover's Dam (which we don't really need) while the former would get us oil and better boats and get us closer to flight/tanks if we want them. We could actually upgrade some of our galleons to transports and ship more troops across the pond that way.
Nice set up Salarakas. I wouldn't be against waiting to upgrade the transports unless we can already ship most of our units. I agree with going for refining and combustion as opposed to atomic theory and electronics.
Stinks that we lose a lot of gpt from Persia, but at least we get some free leader fodder on our home continent.
Stinks that we lose a lot of gpt from Persia, but at least we get some free leader fodder on our home continent.
I don't see the advantage in waiting for transports though. So if someone could explain that one to me.15 galleons only have space for 60 guys. I think we have something like 90 (plus extra settlers and workers) that we could ship overseas but 60 is plenty too. It only takes 4 turns for the boats to bring in reinforcements later. Be sure to load the 4th cavs in the armies but only after they've been landed.
The Persian GPT deal would've ended in something like 4 turns anyway so it wasn't that big a loss.
The Persian GPT deal would've ended in something like 4 turns anyway so it wasn't that big a loss.
Daeron said:
Galleons can only transport 3 unit armies, while transports can transport 4 unit armies. So you could land 4 unit armies. Also, you guys could shut off research after Combustion (that's the transport technology, right?) and buy armies as much as possible.
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