Very critical. First of all you get +20% with that civ, but most importantly you get huge tourism bomb that are directed toward one particular civ. And you always have that one China or Netherlands that has 400K culture. In that case i direct every single TR to that civ and they give me ~3000 tourism per turn agains this particular civ.
New Version - December 18th (12-18)
- Thread starter Gazebo
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
Its really unfortunatly external trade routes are always something necessary for CV and DP, cause you want and need those benefits from statecraft and artistry. This make a focus to internal trade routes only a good choice for a SV, and a solid option for domination.
If I compare the yields alone gained by trade routes, the external are definitly in advantage. In my current game, the best routes gives me:
19
7,5 
(2 times)13
7,5 5 
(5 times)12
7,5 (5 times)While my internal trade routes give me:
13-16
or 11 
To gain 15
, I need only 3 worker on a grasland farm triangle; to gain 11 , I need only 2 worker on a hill mine with a forge.But what do I need to gain 13
7,5 5 A culture specialist, 3 worker for villages on a road with trade route, 2 scientists.
The nerf to external trade routes were really good, and it feels much more balanced. But I think one more small bump for internal trade routes (modifier increase from 6 to 7 or 8) and we hit the sweat spot.
Internal trade routes are only really valiable for 50% of the victory types, and going for the other 50% increase the benefits from external even more.
Leondegrance
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2018
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- 303
I was wondering if each TR to a single Civ gives the bonus cumulatively. Now I know it does.
BiteInTheMark
Deity
Compare it without any modifiers. If internal trade routes are only a valuable option after sacrificing an enhancer belief and a policy, you should think about the balance between internal and external again.I have +21 production or +22 food internal trade routes in medieval with fealty and Mendicancy. International TR give 7 gold, 4 science 2 culture.
Minh Le
King
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- Aug 20, 2018
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- 817
Did your routes have modifiers from Statecraft as well?
BiteInTheMark
Deity
They have, but all shown trade routes were from capital with the same +25% modifier. The relation would stay the same if I would calculate the modifier away.
Edit: Is it intended the CS barbarian spawn is so huge? Its turn 184 on standard speed and 11 Tercios spawned around one of my allied CS. Every 5 turns.... thats a huge amount of units.
Without the 'active' elements added to VP for tourism victory, it becomes a fairly dull 'who can fill a bucket the fastest' challenge. Trade Routes are part of this. This is fine, and intended - if you aren't going for a culture victory, you can lean a bit more on ITR. Otherwise, you thematically and competitively need to be trading with other nations.
G
G
I does NOT. You get +20% (+35% with Statecraft) for having at least 1 TR (and you actually can check it yourself via tourism screen). But you get tourism bombs when TR is completed (via Custom House) and this part is even more important
BiteInTheMark
Deity
No problem with that. All is fine. I simply would like to see the internals buffed a little bit (as said, +10-20% in general), making it more attractive and valuable to send more of those to your main guild cities. Those guys need really much food, and sending food to your secondary cities while a trade route to an other civ would give more yields than your feeded specialists would give, hurts me a bit.
Else this version look very good. As already mentioned in other thread, the happiness in early game is a bit harsh, but looks easy to handle in the later stage of the game. We maybe could increase the flat happiness bonus right from the start by 3 or 4 but set the tech or population effect higher, to maybe 1.5 instead of 1. (Oh I hope I dont regret this suggestion
)The fundamental problem with CV is that it actually relies on AI stupidity to win, because a CV has so many elements that are dependent on cooperation with an Opponent. If an Opponent maintains long wars with you, you lose the diplomat bonus, open borders bonus, TR bonuses and bombs. And while you could attempt to sneak in musicians that is very risky notion.
No other VC is shut down so incredibly hard by a simple press of the declare war button. And I don't even have to fight, I don't have to lift a finger. Just maintaining long warring has a dramatic impact on a person's ability to CV.
Funny enough for me I find SV a more peaceful VC (or at least defensive warring) in many cases, because with various catchup mechanics I can often compete with the AI in science late game, and then go for the win. With a CV, unless the stars are aligning, I usually have to war with the culture leader....who smartly doesn't allow me to keep trading with them all the time. And without all of those bonuses and bombs, CV is not viable unless you turn the culture leader to dust. Until you can....until you get that weird game where the culture leader just becomes your buddy the whole time, allows open borders for nothing, and you get to weirdly sit back and win. Which of course makes no sense
It also still kills me that the whole point of tourism is to give your ETRs these nice extra bonuses....which we never use because your focusing all of your trade routes on the Civ you have the least amount of influence with. It would be nice to actually get the benefits from all of that tourism spend.
So that's a lot of ranting, I think overall my concern may be more to the fundamental nature of CV...that in my heart I think its a broken VC. Its less a condition you go for, and more a condition the AI either lets you have....or one you have to war for anyway.
Just noting different playstyles here. I love to sit back and watch my civ build gloriously, I like to optimize my internal buildings....and I don't find that boring at all. The thing about high end CV....is generally you are:
1) Playing Tall
2) Falling behind on Tech
These two elements means you are very vulnerable to war. So the interactive counterplay is defensive war fare. Its not "filling the buckets", its "filling the buckets while crunching your fingernails as half the world declares on you, and you try to defend with a smaller army that has less tech".
Of the base Tourism multipliers, the only one I consider really interactive is the religion one. Getting and keeping a shared religion requires a lot of interaction and interesting gameplay. That said, its also not really viable in many scenarios...unless you let the AI convert you.
Beyond that, the most interactive elements are the CS/WC and Archeology Rush. Playing key resolutions at the right time.....having to time your CS allies at the last moment as the AI tries to do the same, using diplomats to secure just enough votes to win, sometimes picking resolutions just to funnel votes away from another....now that's the juicy interactive part.
Archeology is a really fun part of the game for a CV player. You have to balance hammers with other things, decide optimal timings of whether to get nearby relics or ones farther away, there's a scouting element on the map to see the relics, decisions on landmarks vs artifacts, decisions on which artifacts to optimize theming bonuses. And of course, the AI seems to know this, and I swear I get so many war declarations at this phase of the game, so dealing with that. You want to talk interactive, I love having a war where I have an archeologist in enemy territory and I'm trying to protect him for 4 turns while he does his dig.
Compared to that, how interactive is "try to maintain open borders all the time", "keep a diplomat in their capital....and not do anything fun with them", "send your TRs to the culture leader....instead of where you would actually get the most use out of them". These aren't really intense, interactive decisions, its about as mindless as choosing which buildings to build...simple checks on the checklist. Now again as I stated above, I am a checklist kind of player....but I don't hold those other mechanics in any special flavor or light.
Those are not the things that make CV interesting....they just make you more beholden on the AI's goodwill.
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Leondegrance
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2018
- Messages
- 303
The big problem with CV is the proposals to ban you outright from trade, trade routes, and open borders. Without these, kiss your CV goodbye.
That is what hapenned to me a few days ago.
When pursuing CV, I recommend having plan B. Be it science, or diplomatic, just have plan B. Because with CV chances to get embargoed are high.
Yes, also keep big army. To the fullest and strongest. They won't let you win easily without a fight.
There is another nasty proposal to make your life miserable. It is called Travel Ban. But at least it applies to everybody, not as severe as an embargo.
You can do SV or DV just fine with an embargo. But it hurts tremendously your CV. So your posts above about the dependency of tourism on trade is justifiable.
For plan B, I think diplomacy is good plan B. Because it works nicely with your cultural peace-mongering.
That is what hapenned to me a few days ago.
When pursuing CV, I recommend having plan B. Be it science, or diplomatic, just have plan B. Because with CV chances to get embargoed are high.
Yes, also keep big army. To the fullest and strongest. They won't let you win easily without a fight.
There is another nasty proposal to make your life miserable. It is called Travel Ban. But at least it applies to everybody, not as severe as an embargo.
You can do SV or DV just fine with an embargo. But it hurts tremendously your CV. So your posts above about the dependency of tourism on trade is justifiable.
For plan B, I think diplomacy is good plan B. Because it works nicely with your cultural peace-mongering.
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Moi Magnus
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2015
- Messages
- 1,868
The fundamental problem with CV is that it actually relies on AI stupidity to win, because a CV has so many elements that are dependent on cooperation with an Opponent. If an Opponent maintains long wars with you, you lose the diplomat bonus, open borders bonus, TR bonuses and bombs. And while you could attempt to sneak in musicians that is very risky notion.
No other VC is shut down so incredibly hard by a simple press of the declare war button. And I don't even have to fight, I don't have to lift a finger. Just maintaining long warring has a dramatic impact on a person's ability to CV.
Funny enough for me I find SV a more peaceful VC (or at least defensive warring) in many cases, because with various catchup mechanics I can often compete with the AI in science late game, and then go for the win. With a CV, unless the stars are aligning, I usually have to war with the culture leader....who smartly doesn't allow me to keep trading with them all the time. And without all of those bonuses and bombs, CV is not viable unless you turn the culture leader to dust. Until you can....until you get that weird game where the culture leader just becomes your buddy the whole time, allows open borders for nothing, and you get to weirdly sit back and win. Which of course makes no sense
It also still kills me that the whole point of tourism is to give your ETRs these nice extra bonuses....which we never use because your focusing all of your trade routes on the Civ you have the least amount of influence with. It would be nice to actually get the benefits from all of that tourism spend.
So that's a lot of ranting, I think overall my concern may be more to the fundamental nature of CV...that in my heart I think its a broken VC. Its less a condition you go for, and more a condition the AI either lets you have....or one you have to war for anyway.
I personnally like the fact that CV rely partially on cooperation of the loser. However, I feel that you don't have enough interest to play nice with people that aim culture victory. I think there should be some bonuses for being influenced by another civ. Either bonuses to TR, either bonuses to culture and science if the one who influence have more social policies or tech, ...
For example, opening your borders could boost the economy, kind of like a "research aggreement" but for gold (indexed on cultural influence).
=> The goal would be to reach a equilibrium where playing nice with the tourism leade help you to win, but is quite dangerous because you help him to win too.
Leondegrance
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2018
- Messages
- 303
Why should the influenced party gain benefit ?
If you are influenced by French medieval castles then you plan a tourist visit and spend your dollars in France. Benefits the influential party.
If you are influenced by American movies or music and living abroad, then you spend your euros for buying and watching them. Benefits the influential party.
Moi Magnus
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2015
- Messages
- 1,868
Gameplay reasons. I want a reason for actually accept to be influenced by the tourism leader as "not that bad", in order to not be systematically refuse open border with the tourism leader, which is very gamey: AI don't do that (they refuse more frequently to the tourism , and I think this SHOULD be the optimal play (which is not the case).
In real world, you don't want to win, second place (or anything that give you good quality of life) is good enough. Civ don't allow "half victory", so adding bonus for cooperation allow to better simulate the real world.
Leondegrance
Prince
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2018
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- 303
Bug report which probably nobody will notice except a nerd like me.
In the in-game civilopedia under the description of Antiquity Sites, the text says
"If you complete the Exploration Social Policy tree, you will also reveal Hidden Antiquity Sites"
Only there is no such policy tree by that name. The right one is Artistry. I think Exploration was in vanilla.
In the in-game civilopedia under the description of Antiquity Sites, the text says
"If you complete the Exploration Social Policy tree, you will also reveal Hidden Antiquity Sites"
Only there is no such policy tree by that name. The right one is Artistry. I think Exploration was in vanilla.
chicorbeef
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,561
You can post bugs here: https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues
Just doing a check before I report this as a bug, as I have never seen this scenario before.
In my last game, I didn't find a single ruin. Hey...probably unlucky, it happens sometimes.
This game, I have found 9 ruins in a pretty short distance from my capital. 9!!! I have never even gotten close to so many, so I'm checking if this is just a crazy RNG luck, or if that might mean something is up.
Has anyone every gotten such luck with their scouting on a Standard Map?
In my last game, I didn't find a single ruin. Hey...probably unlucky, it happens sometimes.
This game, I have found 9 ruins in a pretty short distance from my capital. 9!!! I have never even gotten close to so many, so I'm checking if this is just a crazy RNG luck, or if that might mean something is up.
Has anyone every gotten such luck with their scouting on a Standard Map?
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