With Furs being at 2F 2H 1C straight from the bat, aren't they now the strongest starting resource? Early improve tech, top notch pantheon if Fur monopoly, insane starting yields. Is this furries getting back at everyone for fursecution?![]()
To compare both games right now is not only not right, but also impossible, lets also not forget that civ 5, the game we love, and even VP the mod we love, is hated by many, and considered worthless, pointless, and imbalanced, just like civ 6 is.
I don't know why people keep saying this as if they speak for every single civ player.I know Lord G has spoken, but let me say one last thing:
Civ VI is a very flawed game...but you guys know a game who had even more and bigger flaws?
Civ V.
Oh boy, the vast majority of civfanatics on this very site called it an abomination, there was even a few fan sites made specifically to mock civ v, it ha d a far worse reception, ai and release than civ iv, it took YEARS of patches, dlcs and 2 MASSIVE expansions, to "fix", and most here on this section still call it crap when compared to VP, a massive community mod that itself took YEARS to make and balance, and its still not complete!
To compare both games right now is not only not right, but also impossible, lets also not forget that civ 5, the game we love, and even VP the mod we love, is hated by many, and considered worthless, pointless, and imbalanced, just like civ 6 is.
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Might as well be a resource with a very strong monopoly, great pantheon options, and low technology requirements? I don't get this change at all. The people who found furs too weak weren't looking at the whole picture.There's always going to be a best. Might as well be a tundra resource.
G
Might as well be a resource with a very strong monopoly, great pantheon options, and low technology requirements? I don't get this change at all. The people who found furs too weak weren't looking at the whole picture.
Salt too, its a great resource for a snowbally start. Coffee was left untouched and its really bad. I know the name of the mod would translate as "the voice of the people", but after a few luxury tuning threads it seems clear that people are really bad at balancing luxuries. I'd go by your own AI performance data
I know the name of the mod would translate as "the voice of the people", but after a few luxury tuning threads it seems clear that people are really bad at balancing luxuries.
Sure, but furs aren't limited solely to tundra. Right now furs in grassland forest seem really, really good to me. If the issue is tundra change tundra, don't buff an already above average resourceI did, essentially - civs on plantation starts tend to do significantly better than civs on fringe (tundra) starts, due in large part to expansion opportunities. Coffee may need love, sure, but plantation resources (in general) do better than any other.
G
Still has crazy swings from 14 happiness prewar, to 17 unhappiness during a war. Crazy swings in general actually,and the unhappiness situation is still, in my view, broken.
speak for yourself =) doin fine here haha
Sure, but furs aren't limited solely to tundra. Right now furs in grassland forest seem really, really good to me. If the issue is tundra change tundra, don't buff an already above average resource
AI doing that much better on plantations doesn't surprise me. Mines overall got some pretty hefty nerfs as a result of a previous luxury tuning threads, I think the community really overcompensated
My experience (mostly continents, donut, and pangea) is that grassland or plains furs are fairly common. At least 50-50 with tundra; I do not begin in really heavy tundra very often nor do I notice my neighbors doing so.Furs are possible in grassland, but vast majority appear in tundra. If it becomes problematic I'll look into (perhaps moving the base yield to the improvement, or to the enhancer building). I'm not seeing any major issues with AI fur starts (and I've tested for that), but - as always - human feedback is essential.
that's very true. if you play on hot there's almost no tundra. that's a 99% no map reroll for me, which is why i play it. for balance sake.Sure, but furs aren't limited solely to tundra. Right now furs in grassland forest seem really, really good to me. If the issue is tundra change tundra, don't buff an already above average resource
AI doing that much better on plantations doesn't surprise me. Mines overall got some pretty hefty nerfs as a result of a previous luxury tuning threads, I think the community really overcompensated
Me too. That's why I didn't say anything on what to do with luxuries and limited to talk about how deserts and tundra felt.i liked the idea to try to recover sight with these changes, but personally i need more time to see the whole picture.
Yes, they do. You need to improve them first. I have right now an amazing city with 3 irons in desert tiles and a forge. It's not growingdo your flat desert ressources really grant you +1 production?
I'm going to link to the old changelogs as well so that people can know what has changed since December's official version (it's a lot!).
General
- Many bugfixes, Github issue resolutions and performance improvements
- Tons more UI work by the esteemed Infixo
- Added JFD requests
- Unit Cycler now looks for the nearest unit, instead of jumping around randomly
- Added ability to sort by XP Level in Military Overview
- Randomized Victories advanced setting
- Now only randomizes between science, diplomatic, and cultural victories (Domination and Score victories are always possible if enabled).
- Randomized victory condition is revealed at the Atomic Era (was Information Era).
- Manually disabled victory types remain disabled.
- Fixed a bunch of Firaxis weirdness related to city revolts - should actually occur now, be delivered to the right parties, etc.
- Revolts now require a minimum of 10 turns of unhappiness/ideological pressure, counter resets to 10 if you come out of unhappiness/pressure (no more surprise flips, as funny as that was to read)
- Revolts can occur earlier in the game (if you are below -20 happiness), and can be used to revive dead civs/city-states.
- Civs with cultural influence over the city revolting will get first dibs unless the city is being restored to a dead player.
- In testing this has had the fun effect of buffing vassals when a warmonger goes crazy (as vassals get cities back this way), and also bringing dead city-states back to life. Fun!
AI Improvements
- Many bugfixes (especially relating to AI production/diplomacy/war/tactical logic)
- Improvements to AI diplomatic behavior in some scenarios (including demands)
- Improved AI religion, policy, and building selection criteria
- Major improvements to unit production AI
- AI armies should be more diverse
- AI should be a bit more aggressive overall, and a little more adaptive to shifts in the battlefield
- Fixed some bugs that caused the AI to DOW then bail out on their attack
- Fixed a hilarious tactical AI bug that kept the AI from attacking cities
- Adjusted disbanding logic to be more aggressive and to function for AI properly
- Adjusted some tactical postures
- Adjusted some voting logic for WC
- Tweaks to deal logic re: cities
- AI should be less likely to voluntarily submit to vassalage
- Reworked Tech AI logic quite a bit - should be more tailored to strategic play
- Improved city citizen management (fixed a big bug too)
Warmonger Revamp
- Fixed some (okay, a bunch of) bugs, sanitized a ton of values and logic, and changed some modifiers
- Most important changes:
- Your relative military power is now a primary method of scaling the potency of your warmonger instead of approach/opinion.
- If your civ is much more powerful than another civ, that makes them more sensitive to your warmongering activities.
- If you are much weaker than another civ, that makes them less sensitive to your warmongering.
- The warmonger value of a city scales based on the city's economic power, not its size or the number of cities in the world. Because it should be this way, duh.
- Removed all opinion/approach elements in warmonger so that AI plays fair with humans, and so that warmonger doesn't become a vicious feedback loop.
- Capitals are now a smaller warmonger bump than they used to be (used to be 300% increase to city warmonger value, now 150% increase)
- Warmonger Resistance (CS bonus against conquerors) aka Resistance (Domination) mechanic:
- Now scales off warmonger value. In addition to your military power, warmonger value is affected by things like WC resolutions, cities taken, etc. - higher warmonger with a civ = civ fights harder against you!
- No longer affects Barbs/City-States.
- Maximum CS bonus based on handicap level (AIBase value squared, so Deity is 7x7=49), so higher warmonger translates into more CS defense at higher difficulties.
- CS bonus intended to be defensive, so it doesn't apply to enemy units in the warmonger's territory, and the bonus is halved in neutral territory.
- Scales based on the maximum possible value needed for the highest warmonger ranking, so should be gradual - starts to cap around the 3rd tier (of 4).
- In short, this makes warmongering a little more tactical - brutal wars with lots of enemies will see resistance to you increase dramatically - diplomacy much more important than before!
- Now called 'Anti-Warmonger Fervor' in UI tooltip.
Happiness Revamp
- Adjusted per city happiness modifiers slightly - goal is to punish tall a bit more by making larger cities harder to handle, while also making small/medium wide cities a little easier to handle
- Increased population effect by 30% (65->95)
- Increased tech scaling for happiness by .05 (1.5, was 1.45)
- Increased Specialist unhappiness to .34 (was .25)
- Reduced starting modifiers for boredom/illiteracy/crime/poverty
- Crime/Poverty now -20% (was -15%); Boredom/Illiteracy now +15% (was +25%)
- Other starting yield thresholds, where applicable, have been raised by 5%
- Starvation now 1 per 2 citizens (was 1 per 3)
Puppet Unhappiness mod now -34% (was -25%)
- Reworked happiness threshold reductions from buildings a bit
- Reduced larger modifiers to 25/30%
Illiteracy
- Museum now reduces Illiteracy
Poverty
- Customs House/Hanse and Bank now reduce Poverty
Crime
- Military Academy and Military Base now reduce Crime
- Intelligence Agency now a -15% global modifier (was -30% local)
Boredom
- Broadcast Tower now reduces Boredom
- Luxury+Population scaling model reworked
- No longer looks at dynamic population as the scaler over time, now sets a static threshold for each level based on pop/tech/city count at time of settling - prevents weirdness at higher pop counts where you chase an unreachable number. Should result in a bit more happiness from luxuries overall.
Trade Routes Revamp
- TR distance scaling now uses the furthest potential candidate as your 100% for the purposes of scaling
- TR distance scaling now caps at 50% reduction
- TR resource diversity reworked a bit - now a +/- modifier based on relative diversity between targets
- If origin city is more resource diverse than target city, target gold value is worth more. If origin is less resource diverse than target, target value is worth less.
- i.e. Merchants can load up with more goods from diverse cities to send to cities that have less stuff to trade (and need more stuff!)
- Resource diversity is based on number of improved resources around the city
- Luxuries and Strategics each count for '1' (even if there are multiple Strategics on a tile)
- If a resource around the city is part of a monopoly owned by the city owner, it counts double
- If you have 4 resources around a city, and they have 3, you get +25% diversity bonus for the gold value of the route
- Reversed, you get -25% Gold.
- Carthage/EIC bonus (see below) modify this final value (i.e. +25% is doubled by Dido to 50%, and -25% is halved to 13%).
- Caps at -50% and +100%
- Base internal yield rate now +6 (was +5)
- Increased base length of land TR to 10 (was 8)
- Fixed a bug that was doubling these values as well, so TRs should feel tighter.
- Reduced TR bonuses from influence slightly
- Growth now 5/10/15/20/25%
- Gold now 2/4/6/8/10
- Trade route speed and vision weirdness issues resolved - routes should be a bit shorter in duration as well
Other Balance Changes
- General
- Scoring tweaked a bit to emphasize techs/military power/policies over land/pop
- Increased unit/building cost by around 30-40% at base
- Tweaked building/unit cost algorithms a bit
- Changed building/unit purchase cost formula a bit
- Units now scale with empire size in cost (same as buildings)
- Building and unit base cost increased slightly
- Fixed some game speed scaling issues
- Reduced City defense scaling from tech/pop slightly
- Reduced growth exponent for cities slightly
- General/Admiral rates required for a GA/GG to spawn now scale with gamespeed
- Difficulty
- AI Difficulty Bonuses
- Removed Digs and City-State TR historic event bonuses
- Reduced GP bonus to /3 (was /2)
- Removed local border growth bonus
- Reduced starting units for Deity AI
- Tweaked barb spawn rate so that more barbs spawn on higher difficulties, and fewer on lower ones
- Halved AI culture bonuses from handicap (if too much, we'll try again later)
- Handicap modifiers tweaked a bit to help early/mid-game slump
- Civs
- Byzantium - new UA elements: -15%
purchase cost reduction, can purchase valid GPs from Classical Era on.
- Carthage - city founding
now 125 (was 175)
- Huns - UA chance to capture Barbarians in encampments now 75% (was 100%)
- Siam - bumped CS influence to 40 at start (was 35) to compensate for lost bonuses below
- City-States
- Bonuses related to Ally/Friend status (i.e. Chancery, Wire Service, Germany UA) are now exclusive to Ally/Friend status - either/or, not both
- Reduced CS meeting bonuses, esp. influence
- City-State influence scaler adjusted to be less powerful at longer gamespeeds
- Can no longer indiscriminately gift units to CSs if they're at their unit cap (roughly 5 or so units per city)
- City-States can now upgrade their units when they have the tech (gold limitations removed for them)
- They're already behind on techs, so no reason to double-punish them.
- Reduced starting units at higher difficulties
- Reworked bully metric, removed tiering (now scales directly from military power) and made the proximity bonus tighter
- Adjusted production/growth modifiers
- Corporations
- Reduced modifier for Trader Sid's TRs to 25% Gold (was 50%)
- Reduced modifier for Firaxite TRs to 50% Science (was 100%)
- Giorgio and Firaxite Office bonus reduced by 1 (now +2 culture/science per office, respectively)
- Techs
- Increased Atomic/Information tech costs by about 15%
- Light adjustments to tech costs in light of balance changes
- Policies
- Tradition
- Buffed Faith from Astrologer to +3 (was +2); reduced Happiness from NWs/Palace to +1 (was +2)
- Progress
- Opener - dropped Science from pop to 20 (was 30), and retroactive to 15 (was 20)
- Organization - moved TR bonus to Fealty (Burghers)
- Expertise - removed Policy cost reduction modifier, moved +2 gold/production in all cities from Equality here, dropped Production boost to 10% (was 20%)
- Equality - now +1 Happiness per 15 citizens (was 16), added '-5% Unhappiness from Poverty, Illiteracy, Crime, and Boredom in all Cities'
- Finisher - now 15 per citizen (was 20)
- Authority
- Tribute - border expansion yields now 15 (was 20)
- Fealty
- Burghers - Trade Routes to Civilizations with more Techs and/or Policies than you generate +2 Science and/or Culture.
- Nobility - now +3 Food on Castles (was +10% Food)
- Shifted purchase bonus from Organized Religion to Opener
- Aesthetics
- Heritage - removed Tourism per city scaler; increased GAP from Great People to 100 (was 50), bumped tourism/GAP on University to 4 (was 3)
- Finisher - Landmarks gain +3 Science/GAP
- Artistry
- Opener - gains +100% construction rate of Guild buildings
- Refinement - all Guild buildings gain +1 Happiness
- Cultural Exchange - now +3 Culture/Production from Guilds (was 2/1)
- Industry
- Opener - now 5 Gold per building (was 15)
- Reduced production/gold on Division of Labor to 2% per building, but added Forge and Airport (so 10% total, but more spread out)
- Rationalism
- Enlightenment - reduced Golden Age science to 5% (was 10%)
- Academics - reduced Science from Great Works to 2% (was 4%), still caps at 20%
- Empiricism - removed tech % scaling by city - added 'specialists consume -1 food'
- The removed scalers (Aesthetics/Rationalism) were hard to balance at different map sizes. This standardizes things, leaving only one building - the Forbidden Palace - with such a feature. And it is forbidden!
- Ideology Tenets
- Freedom
- Capitalism - halved specialist bonus to 3 (was 6)
- Civil Society - now just reduces specialist food consumption by 2 per specialist (was halving all food expenses)
- Iron Fist: now 25% (was 50%) (to note, I have seen gross vassal yields once or twice. Best to nip this even if it weakens the tenet a bit.)
- Religious Beliefs
- Pantheons
- Earth Mother gives +1 Faith from Iron
- Springtime gives +2 Gold from Plantations, but no Culture
- Festivals gives +3 Gold from a Resource
- Expanse gives 6 Production instead of 15 Food
- Divine Inheritance and Theocratic rule now 10% for yield buffs (were 15%)
- Council of Elders: now 6/6 on conversion (was 10/10)
- Way of Transcendence: now scales with Era
- Evangelism: increased Science gain from successful conversion (was a factor of 6, now a factor of 10)
- Zealotry: dropped SR modifier to 1% (was 3%)
- Cooperation: now +5 per birth (was +6)
- Mastery: specialists now also produce +1 GAP
- Units
- Units purchased with gold now receive half of the potential XP from the city (so if a city has a Barracks, you get 7 XP, not 15 XP)
- Can be disabled in CBO if desired.
- Increased Guided Missile damage to 150 (was 100), can now only attack units - and attacks garrisons alone when hitting cities
- Great Merchant WLTKD now lasts 10 turns (was 20 turns)
- Great Engineer - reduced potency of hurry base value, but increased Production boost from manufactories (20%, from 10%)
- Naval Ranged units are now all a base 1 range
- Much like the artillery conundrum on land, the shift to 2 range dramatically changes the naval landscape, too much so.
- Battleship and Cruiser start with Range (so they'll max out at 2 range)
- Naval Ranged units now get access to Splash I/II (from Targeting III)
- Moved Nuclear Sub to Robotics
- Work Boats starts with Sight Penalty, movement reduced to 2
- Work Boats/Cargo Ships/Caravans no longer consume military supply (whoops)
- Captured military units start at 25 health (was 50) - nerf to Huns, Prize Ships, etc.
- Can no longer select the two 'extra' XP bonus promotions for the recon line
- Explorer - bumped to 17 CS
- Zeppelin - starts with spotting XP bonus, bumped CS to 32
- Paratrooper - starts with pillage XP bonus
- Spearman CS now 11; Immortal/Pictish Warrior now 13; Hoplite now 14
- Pikeman CS now 17; Landsknecht now 20
- Foreign Legion CS now 52
- Mercenary CS now 60
- Buildings
- Increased maintenance costs for buildings from the Renaissance Era onwards
- Adjusted purchase cost formula a bit (should be a little cheaper late-game)
- Forge - now grants mines +2
(was +1)
- Workshop - bumped base production to +5, removed Jungle buffs
- Factory - bumped base production to +5, removed specialist bump, now grants +2
to local Manufactories
- Zoo - added +1
(should help mid-game slump in happiness a bit)
- Cathedral - now grants +1
to local Quarries
- Castle - now grants +1
to local Quarries
- Steam Mill - now grants +4
to local Manufactories, drops specialist stuff
- Stock Exchange - removed maintenance cost, now provides Towns with +2
, reduced gold per citizen to 1:5
- Barracks/Ikanda - reduced Science to 1 (was 2)
- Bank - changed Caravansary/Mint bonus to local, increased to +3
(was 1)
- Caravansary - reduced connection bonus to 10% (was 25%)
- Dropped modifiers on CSD Ideology NWs to 5% (were 15%), 10% for Production on Hall of Honor
- Opera House - Culture modifier now 5%
- Reduced Science per citizen on University (but not Seowon) to 25% (was 33%), forests no longer provide Science
- Reduced Science per citizen on Public School (but not Skola) to 1 per 4 (was 1 per 2)
- Windmill - dropped Food on grocer/granary to +1 (was +2)
- Herbalist - removed Food on forests
- Medical Lab - the 3 Specialists now produce +1 of their base yield (instead of all Science), and food kept dropped to 15% (was 30%)
- Well/Water Mill - now divided - Well generates +1
per 5
, Water Mill +1
per 4
- These buildings scaled surprisingly well (ha), and needed a nerf
- Floating Gardens - now +1
/
per 5
(was +2 per 5)
- Agribusiness - loses 10% Food bonus, but gains +1 Food on all worked farms
- Church - now boosts starting religious strength for all Missionaries by 5% (up to 50% globally)
- Prior effect created weird and un-fun strategies to only build missionaries in one city. This spreads the bonus out, encouraging investment.
- Stupa - increased Tourism to +5 (was +4), GAP to +3 (was +2)
- Specialists
- Specialist food costs increased by 1 (so starts at 3, goes up using old formula in the same linear manner)
- Removed 1 Engineer from Train Station
- Removed Civil Servants from CSD ideology NWs (3 total)
- Removed 1 Scientist from Military Academy
- Removed 1 Engineer from Factory
- Removed 1 Merchant from Stock Exchange
- Removed 1 Scientist from Seowon
- Removed 1 Scientist from Monastery
- Overall: potential specialist slot amounts are roughly equal (not taking into account extra slots from UBs)
- Normalized Specialist yields from tech (Engineers always get Production, GWAM always get Culture, etc.)
- Reduced Culture from GWAM Specialist yield bumps at tech (2 to 1, 3 to 2)
- Removed 1 Tech-based yield increase per other Specialist type:
- Theology for Scientist
- Flight for Merchant
- Rocketry for Engineer
- Wonders
- Era scaling for Wonder cost revised a bit
- Anything beyond previous two eras back is 0% added to the cost; so a wonder from the Ancient Era (Era 0) is...
- 25% if the new wonder being built is Ancient
- 15% if the new wonder is Classical
- 10% if the new wonder is Medieval
- 0% if the new wonder is Renaissance or later
- Circus Maximus - now grants +2
to every Arena
- Oracle - removed free social policy, now grants +500 Culture/Science and a free Temple
- Heroic Epic - added +1
per 5
- National Epic - added +15 Culture when a citizen is born in the city
- Grand Temple - removed Golden Age, but buffed Temple bonuses to +2 (was +1)
- East India Company - now grants +1 Trade Route
- Parthenon - added +10% unit supply modifier for the city in which it's built
- Terracotta Army - now grants a flat 3 unit supply for the city in which it's built
- Himeji Castle - loses free Great Scientist, now grants +1 unit supply in every city
- Machu Picchu - Gold bonus now 15% (was 33%)
- Hagia Sophia - now gives a free Church
- Borobudur - now gives a free Stupa
- Angkor Wat - now gives a free Mandir
- Grand Canal - removed extra movement promotion
- Spies
- Espionage modifier on Police Station/Constable reduced to -25% (was -50/-33)
- Counterspying is more effective than before
- Spy rank matters more for all actions
- World Congress
- Reworked Arts/Science resolutions to scale off of policy/tech count
- Tiles
- Flat desert resources gain +1
- Production bonus from settling a city on Forest/Jungle dropped from 125% to 50% of chop value (now ~10
)
- Resources
- Fish: +1
(base)
- Whales: -1
, +1
(base)
- Truffles, Cotton: +1
(improvement)
- Fur: +1
(base)
- Sugar, Salt: +1
(base)
- Marble, Tea: -1
(improvement)
- Improvements
- Pastures: +1
(fresh water) at Mathematics, +1
(no fresh water) at Civil Service
- Lumber Mill (Jungle) renamed to Logging Camp
- Lumber Mill and Logging Camp tech yield increases shifted around a bit:
- Moved Industrialization yield bump to Metallurgy
- Lumber Mill +1
, Logging Camp +1
- Yield bump at Combustion
- Now +2
(Logging Camp)
- Now +2
(Lumber Mill)
- Yield bumps no longer depend on fresh water/no fresh water (as that was always weird for feature-based tiles anyways)
I should note that this patch, barring small tweaks to numbers, marks a freeze on Civ UA/UU/UB/UI functionality in addition to all other frozen systems. I'm also happy with Trade Routes, so I'm freezing that as well. Pretty much all that's left is micro-level balance.