New Version - May 20th (5/20)

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Hotfixes always are, yes.


Thank you.

I'm using the April 20 patch. I care about the City State City Capture quest xp fix right now...I'm assuming that the fix for that is in (1)Community Patch.zip as it's the only one updated for today's date. Can I install only that or it only works for those with the May 20 patch that you have up?
 
Thank you.

I'm using the April 20 patch. I care about the City State City Capture quest xp fix right now...I'm assuming that the fix for that is in (1)Community Patch.zip as it's the only one updated for today's date. Can I install only that or it only works for those with the May 20 patch that you have up?

4/20 is not compatible. New versions are never compatible, only hotfixes within that version are compatible with each other.

G
 
I have a problem for Councils of Elders. Let's see if you guys can confirm this before I submit this as an issue. I'm not entirely sure if I understand the change. In 5-20-3, when first adopting this founder belief, I got 30/30 production and science as intended. It functions as well with when the second city is converted, giving 60/60 (I have just advanced to the next era. Not sure if Councils of Elders has era scaling). However, the 3rd and 4th cities so on, only gives something like 61/61, 62/62, 63/63, 64/64... which seems only add 1/1 for each cities converted.
 
upload_2018-5-22_23-37-42.png
 
I have a problem for Councils of Elders. Let's see if you guys can confirm this before I submit this as an issue. I'm not entirely sure if I understand the change. In 5-20-3, when first adopting this founder belief, I got 30/30 production and science as intended. It functions as well with when the second city is converted, giving 60/60 (I have just advanced to the next era. Not sure if Councils of Elders has era scaling). However, the 3rd and 4th cities so on, only gives something like 61/61, 62/62, 63/63, 64/64... which seems only add 1/1 for each cities converted.

I explained on github, but I'll note here to ward off others - CoE now scales exponentially as a % modifier:

CoE yield = base value (30) * (100 + (numcitiesfollowing*numcitiesfollowing)) / 100

G
 
I explained on github, but I'll note here to ward off others - CoE now scales exponentially as a % modifier:

CoE yield = base value (30) * (100 + (numcitiesfollowing*numcitiesfollowing)) / 100

G

Hm. Is that all there is to this formula? Because the yield progression then seems a) not working as intended (factor 2, and wording) and b) really questionable design wise. I'll break it down:

a) The progression formula would be for increasing number of following cities (up to 20):
Code:
1    30
2    30,3
3    31,2
4    32,7
5    34,8
6    37,5
7    40,8
8    44,7
9    49,2
10    54,3
11    60
12    66,3
13    73,2
14    80,7
15    88,8
16    97,5
17    106,8
18    116,7
19    127,2
20    138,3
But it's not. As said before it starts at 60. Can you clarify?
In addition the wording says "30 yields for every city following", that would imply 30, 60, 90, 120...
So if you really wan to keep it the way it is, please rephrase this to depict how it really works. Otherwise this will get reported as a bug forever.

b)
The other founder beliefs have a linear scaler afaik, why does this have to be different? If the progression is non linear, the only times this founder belief is good, is when you can convert many cities, otherwise leave it. It makes this (even if the numbers were perfectly balanced) a no-brainer on larger landmass maps and larger maps in general, where you can guarantee high number of conversions, with no competition, no decision making. It takes itself the niche of beeing the production oriented alternative to Holy Law and Hero Worship. It makes the sole decision making process "is this map big enough". If you want to scale it somehow non-linearly, make it scale linearly but with era aswell.
An example would be: "basevalue(10)+numscitiesfollowing*(2)*erascaler (this tries to maintain the total yield amount received on the same scale as your formula)

TLDR: A squared approach cannot be balanced on big and small maps at the same time, while other founders are linear.
 
Hm. Is that all there is to this formula? Because the yield progression then seems a) not working as intended (factor 2, and wording) and b) really questionable design wise. I'll break it down:

a) The progression formula would be for increasing number of following cities (up to 20):
Code:
1    30
2    30,3
3    31,2
4    32,7
5    34,8
6    37,5
7    40,8
8    44,7
9    49,2
10    54,3
11    60
12    66,3
13    73,2
14    80,7
15    88,8
16    97,5
17    106,8
18    116,7
19    127,2
20    138,3
But it's not. As said before it starts at 60. Can you clarify?
In addition the wording says "30 yields for every city following", that would imply 30, 60, 90, 120...
So if you really wan to keep it the way it is, please rephrase this to depict how it really works. Otherwise this will get reported as a bug forever.

b)
The other founder beliefs have a linear scaler afaik, why does this have to be different? If the progression is non linear, the only times this founder belief is good, is when you can convert many cities, otherwise leave it. It makes this (even if the numbers were perfectly balanced) a no-brainer on larger landmass maps and larger maps in general, where you can guarantee high number of conversions, with no competition, no decision making. It takes itself the niche of beeing the production oriented alternative to Holy Law and Hero Worship. It makes the sole decision making process "is this map big enough". If you want to scale it somehow non-linearly, make it scale linearly but with era aswell.
An example would be: "basevalue(10)+numscitiesfollowing*(2)*erascaler (this tries to maintain the total yield amount received on the same scale as your formula)

TLDR: A squared approach cannot be balanced on big and small maps at the same time, while other founders are linear.

I believe CoE does scale with era now (haven't tried the new version yet) as Gazebo mentioned it in the Founder Belief thread and XplosiveLun's anecdote supports that.

The current CoE actually has a less drastic map dependence than the old one (as it starts at 30 and goes to 138.3, as opposed to starting at 6 and going up to 120, making early spreads more powerful). The scaler is exponential but the total yields resulted should be more linear in theory.
 
I believe CoE does scale with era now (haven't tried the new version yet) as Gazebo mentioned it in the Founder Belief thread and XplosiveLun's anecdote supports that.

The current CoE actually has a less drastic map dependence than the old one (as it starts at 30 and goes to 138.3, as opposed to starting at 6 and going up to 120, making early spreads more powerful). The scaler is exponential but the total yields resulted should be more linear in theory.
1) Okay that makes sense, but he didn't mention it in the formula, so bear with me.
2) So why not make it linear if thats the commonly accepted goal?
 
1) Okay that makes sense, but he didn't mention it in the formula, so bear with me.
2) So why not make it linear if thats the commonly accepted goal?

The old formula, gave 330 yields from spreading to 10 cities and 126 for 6 cities. The new one gives 385.5 for 10 cities and 196.5 for 6 cities.

So, this formula is a little smoother and more powerful with a lower amount of cities.

However, I do find the later values a little questionable. Maybe increase the base a little and cut the exponent scaling a bit? I'm not sure.

We could make it just like a flat out 60/60 when you convert a city, like you say. That's easy enough to handle. My initial issue with the belief is that the total yields don't go up linearly, they do so exponentially, this would be a very easy way to solve that, though this could lead to snowballs.
 
The old formula, gave 330 yields from spreading to 10 cities and 126 for 6 cities. The new one gives 385.5 for 10 cities and 196.5 for 6 cities.

So, this formula is a little smoother and more powerful with a lower amount of cities.

However, I do find the later values a little questionable. Maybe increase the base a little and cut the exponent scaling a bit? I'm not sure.

We could make it just like a flat out 60/60 when you convert a city, like you say. That's easy enough to handle. My initial issue with the belief is that the total yields don't go up linearly, they do so exponentially, this would be a very easy way to solve that, though this could lead to snowballs.
a) this is not an exponential function, it's a square function.
b) linear increase is not a flat increase. I did not suggest 60 yields for every conversion. thats broken in the early game and useless lategame.
I suggest you look into this topic with more dedication.
 
I have an AI declaring war and make peace with my vassal every turn, any way to get around that?
 
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