New Wonders: Part 3

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Greetings! We are following a 4-step process to make the selection of world wonders more fun and exciting. Now we're on step 4!

    Step 1: Nominations for new wonder ideas (2 weeks, Done!)
    Step 2: Vote on favorite ideas (2 weeks, Done!)
    Step 3: Figure out effects for the wonders (2 weeks, Done!).
    Step 4: Add the changes to the game (Done in Gem v1.10!).

    Update: I included a preliminary version of these updates in Gem v1.10. The wonders currently have temporary placeholder artwork. I expect to have the final artwork added within a week. Once that is done, I will release GEM to the public on the Steam Workshop.

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4
    Wonder Replaces Tech Bonuses
    :c5science: Large Hadron Collider -new- Particle Physics 2 techs
    :c5faith: Wat Phra Kaew -new- Archaeology 10%:c5gold::c5culture: on shrines and temples.
    :c5production: Itaipu Dam -new- Electronics 15%:c5production: in all cities, 1 engineer, 1 hydro plant. Requires river.
    :c5food: Banaue Rice Terraces -new- Construction 4:c5food: and +1 on local hills
    :c5trade: Panama Canal Neuschwanstein Dynamite 25%:c5trade: income, and 1:c5moves: for ships. Requires coastal city.
    :c5faith: Holy Palace -National Wonder- Philosophy 8 +25%:c5faith: for city. Requires Temples in all cities.
    :c5faith: Churches of Lalibela Hagia Sophia Theology 25%:c5faith: for empire, 1:c5faith: on local hills
    :c5faith: Great Mosque of Djenne - Theology 1 Great Prophet, +1 missionary spread, mosque-like bonuses
    :c5happy: Hagia Sophia Notre Dame Physics 10:c5happy: 4:c5faith:
    :c5science: Bell Labs Hubble Telescope Rocketry 2 great scientists, 25%:c5production: for space, 1 space factory
    :c5happy: Hollywood Louvre Radio 1 artist, 4 tradable movie luxury resources
    :c5happy: Eiffel Tower - Steam Power 5:c5happy: +1:c5happy: per 2 policies (unchanged)
    :c5gold: Flavian Ampitheater Mausoleum (unchanged) 1 great merchant, 1 colosseum, +2 gold on local stone/marble
    :c5war: Parthenon Statue of Zeus (unchanged) 1 great general, +10% general effectiveness
    :c5greatperson: Duomo di Firenze Leaning Tower (unchanged) 1 great person, +25% great person rate
    :c5science: Heidelberg Oxford (unchanged) 1 free tech
     
  2. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Wonder Descriptions
    Spoiler :
    Large Hadron Collider Europe


    This is the world's largest and highest-energy particle accelerator. It is expected to address some of the most fundamental questions of physics, advancing the understanding of the deepest laws of nature.
    Itaipu Dam


    This gigantic dam on the Paran√° River generates the most annual electricity of any operating hydroelectric facility in the world, supplying 90% of the electricity consumed by Paraguay and 20% of that consumed by Brazil.
    Bell Labs


    This research institution revolutionized the world by inventing the basic components of modern computers, including the most important engineering marvel of the 20th century: transistors. These devices allowed computers to shrink from house-size to pocket-size.
    Panama Canal


    The Panama Canal shortcut made it possible for ships to travel between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans in half the time previously required. The shorter, faster, safer route to the U.S. West Coast and to nations in and along the Pacific Ocean allowed those places to become more integrated with the world economy.
    Hollywood


    This symbolically represents the influence of American cinema on world culture.
    Wat Phra Kaew


    This majestic temple is regarded as the most sacred Buddhist temple (wat) in Thailand. The main building houses the statue of Emerald Buddha. The legendary history of this Buddha image is traced to India, five centuries after the Lord Buddha attained Nirvana, till it was finally enshrined in Bangkok at the Wat Phra Kaew temple in 1782.
    Churches of Lalibela


    Carved directly out of solid rock hillsides in Africa, the earliest Churches at Lalibela were likely constructed by the Askumites. This wonder represents the dominance of the Kingdom of Aksum in the late classical/early medieval period. Aksum was the first major empire to officially convert to Christianity (even before Rome!). This has huge cultural and religious significance, especially since Christianity is the largest religion in sub-Saharan Africa, a region with only 1 existing wonder. The Askumites were a major trading hub between Rome and the Indian Ocean for centuries.
    Banaue Rice Terraces


    2000-year old terraces carved into the mountains of Ifugao in the Philippines. It is commonly thought that the terraces were built with minimal equipment, largely by hand. The terraces cover about 4000 square miles of mountainside. They are fed by an ancient irrigation system from the rainforests above the terraces. If the steps are put end to end, it would encircle half the globe.
    Parthenon


    Built during the Golden Age of Athens for the Greek Goddess of wisdom and strategic warfare: Athena. It was during this time that Athens was the superior military and trading power in the Mediterranean.
    Flavian Amphitheatre


    Commonly known as "The Colosseum," this elliptical amphitheater in the centre of the city of Rome is the largest ever built in the Roman Empire. It is considered one of the greatest works of Roman architecture and Roman engineering.
     
  3. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Looks fine for now.
    Probably too many wonders on Theology, 25% for all cities everywhere might be a bit strong from Iatapu, but I'm find to test it and see.
     
  4. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    This plan would provide 5 bonuses on Theology, up from the current 4:
    • Garden
    • Holy Palace (new)
    • Churches of Lalibela
    • Mosque of Djenne
    • Holy Site bonus
    The Holy Palace could go on Philosophy with Temples?
     
  5. GenjiKhan

    GenjiKhan Emperor

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    I think that the technology placement of Itaipu is too much early in the tech tree . It comes before Cristo Redentor,although Cristo Redentor came much earlier than Itaipu in RL(Cristo Redentor was finished in 1931,while Itaipu has been operating since 1982) . I would change the technology requirement here to "Ecology",which fits much better than "Electricity" . About the bonus,what about reducing the :c5production: bonus to 15% and make the player receives a free Great Engineer upon completing? Beyond that,most of the wonder bonus seems fine to me .
     
  6. rhammer640

    rhammer640 Russian Monk

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    Why not replace leaning tower with duomo di firenze this round? I thought that one was pretty unanimous and I dont think many people are particularly tied to the leaning tower?

    Also i was really looking forward to banue rice terraces as i thought the bonus was very unique and fun.

    The rest I'm fine with as is, basically if your going to add almost all why not just finish and add the remaining 4?
     
  7. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    @GenjiKhan
    I changed the bonuses to your suggestion, and moved the Itapu Dam to a later tech (Electronics). Some wonders are in a slightly different time period than their realworld date for gameplay purposes. For example, the unmodded Eiffel Tower appears in the WW1 era, but was built 30 years earlier in the Industrial era.

    @rhammer640
    I attempted to limit the first round to wonders that got the most support/votes, and some of the ideas weren't suggested until later. I'd certainly be happy to add all the ideas at once. Adding new buildings is very easy to do from a technical perspective. :)
     
  8. rhammer640

    rhammer640 Russian Monk

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    I mean if people had objections to any of those four I could see holding off as the last conversation regarding wonders got a bit heated, haha. It would bring the total of new wonders to four but I think as long as we left it at that and didn't add more it probably would be fine. Plus they seem pretty spread out per era.
     
  9. lordrune

    lordrune Prince

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    Itaipu seems pretty massive, although probably not more so then, for example, Statue of Liberty. The bonus will accumulate with railroads, workshop, etc, rather than multiplying it, so it's not as unbalancing as it might first look. I'd just recommend making the production cost significant - probably twice as much as other wonders of the same era.
     
  10. rhammer640

    rhammer640 Russian Monk

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    So i know this is a minor point but will someone be modeling the new wonders so they show up in the cities when built? I know its minor but its such a nice touch that you can visually see the wonders that a city has built.
     
  11. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I think modders who specialize in world wonders designed art for several of these. Panama Canal and the Dam have 3d ingame models already in G&K... the stuff is there, but disabled.
     
  12. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    That's a big help. :)
     
  13. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Is the only change to Eiffel when it comes along (looks like it off top of my head)? If so, Chichen Itza, Foundry national wonder, and the Oracle were also moved in GEM. So far.

    I didn't mind wonders that gave free religious buildings (even if they weren't your religion), but otherwise I like those suggestions. It looks like we have potentially nerfed some happiness in gk by taking out Neusch and adding Hollywood. (For wide at least). Sounds good on that front. Was lailibela hills on that city like the rice terraces?
     
  14. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    These effect all seem quite good so far. Though I want to second the question on what happens to the old changed wonders (or why did you single out the Eiffel Tower above :))?

    So are the Free Mosques/Pagodas/Cathedrals gone from the religious wonders? I like those effect. One could add also a free monastery to Angkor Wat or the Sistine Chapel or somewhere else?

    Does Lalibela need hills or not? I guess it's fine without. Hagia Sophia seems a bit bland with the effect, not? Maybe lower the amount and give the mosque there? (I know, cathedral fits better, but Djenne is the only other wonder where a mosque makes sense and it seems strong enough right now).
     
  15. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    About the free religious buildings; the only effect for having them, other than just building their yields into the structure, is that you are blocked from building a religious building if it happens that the building in question is the one from your religion.

    So if you follow a religion with Mosques as the follower ability, then you're blocked from building your own follower building if you get the great mosque. Whereas if you're following a religion with cathedrals, then you can get both a cathedral and a mosque.

    So I think the free religious buildings are counterproductive; they make the relevant wonders *less* attractive to civs that are actually using those religious buildings. That is a design failure IMO.
     
  16. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Not necessarily, if it's from your own religion, you don't use up the :c5faith: needed for buying the structure. As Religion is often better in wide empires that means you can get one more of those buildings. It offers an additional way to get those buildings which means you might see these buildings more. More Variety, more fun, more close to the base game.

    I guess, I can see both sides of the argument and I don't feel rather hot about this anyways...
     
  17. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    A) Suppose I have a religion that gets cathedrals. I build the great mosque in city X. Now, City X has a mosque, and I still have the option to spend faith to build a cathedral if I like.

    B) suppose I have a religion that gets mosques. I build the great mosque in city X. Now, city X has a mosque, but I have no option to also spend faith to build a faith building in that city.

    I am worse off in B than I am in A. In A I have an option that I don't have in B.

    It is usually the case that I run out of cities to be able to purchase faith buildings in, so this is a real penalty.

    This penalty could be avoided if the great mosque just had the *effects* of the mosque (+happy, faith, culture) tied directly into the great mosque.

    Other than literally having the building called "mosque" in the city screen, the gameplay effects of this would be the same as the original except that you would avoid penalizing people who already have that follower building for their religion.
     
  18. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    But in B you have more :c5faith: you can use to buy said structure in another city, spend on a missionary/inquisitor or Great Prophet/Other Great People? So even if you run out of cities to buy them, the additional faith has other uses.

    But yes, it's more of a flavour than anything else. And I don't think the gameplay effect is as big and the penalty is as big. Adding just the effects to the wonders would seem wrong. And the free buildings are in line with other wonders.
     
  19. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    No you don't. You have the same amount of faith in both A and B. How would you have more faith in B? You get a free mosque in both cases, the faith gain is exactly the same.

    No it isn't. The other buildings don't have differential effects across players. A free library effects everyone equally. A free mosque penalizes only someone who follows a religion that provides mosques (by blocking their mosque slot); it doesn't penalize someone who follows a religion that provides cathedrals.

    I find it detracts from flavor, because it now means that my Arab-Muslim-themed civ with mosques is *less* likely to build the great mosque than is a christian-themed civ with a cathedra-providing religion. And similarly for the other wonders.
     
  20. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I get what you're saying mitsho. Besides, the free buildings are a case where fun and realism outweigh other considerations. It makes sense for a Great Mosque to be... a mosque. :)

    Rice terrace main role is food to hills, so they require a hill city. The Lalibela (we gotta spell that right) churches are mainly intended to provide a faith bonus; their hill part is a minor flavorful thing on the side like with the Flavian Ampitheater / Mausoleum, so the churches don't require hills.

    @mitsho
    I moved the Eiffel Tower's tech to balance out where wonders appear on the tech tree. It's also more realistic since the Eiffel Tower was built in the late Industrial period, before the WW1 era.
     

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