New Wonders: Part 3

[[to_xp]Gekko]

so Fireaxis can't do what a single guy did in his spare time ( Sephi with Master of Mana for the record ) ? that's sad.

so no hill prereq it is? it wouldn't make much sense anyway, you could build it on a hill and have all flatland around

 

[mystikx21]

I suspect it might not be, but a dud wonder for the AI is probably less important than a frustrated human player who built their city *next* to the hills they wanted to use the Terraces for.

This. I'd certainly be pissed.

 

[Thalassicus]

I updated the table based on recent feedback.

 

[cleaner]

Hello.
First of all, I'm looking forward to GEM being as comprehensive as VEM is and am checking daily hoping for new updates.
Regarding the wonders, are you replacing wonders to avoid bloating the game and giving each more impact? And when you're done eventually, both with them and other gameplay additions that replace current assets, like for example the Jelling Stones replacing the Ski Infantry, would be possible to disable just the replacements?

 

[Thalassicus]

Regarding the wonders, are you replacing wonders to avoid bloating the game and giving each more impact?

And when you're done eventually, both with them and other gameplay additions that replace current assets, like for example the Jelling Stones replacing the Ski Infantry, would be possible to disable just the replacements?

Yes to the first question - I add new units/buildings/wonders only when there appears to be no other feasible way to accomplish something. If we can change/replace an existing object I prefer to do that instead.

It's easier to balance the game with one fixed ruleset, so I plan on having one "official" version of the mod. I could do multiple versions if we had other programmers on the project, but I don't have the time to do it alone. To answer your second question, yes it's possible to disable anything in the mod, but I cannot assure game balance if you do. It's sort of an "at your own risk" kind of thing.

 

[cleaner]

Yes to the first question - I add new units/buildings/wonders only when there appears to be no other feasible way to accomplish something. If we can change/replace an existing object I prefer to do that instead.

It's easier to balance the game with one fixed ruleset, so I plan on having one "official" version of the mod. I could do multiple versions if we had other programmers on the project, but I don't have the time to do it alone. To answer your second question, yes it's possible to disable anything in the mod, but I cannot assure game balance if you do. It's sort of an "at your own risk" kind of thing.

Alright, thanks for the thorough answer and especially for all the work you do with the mod.

 

[Thalassicus]

I was scanning through the NYT's top articles tonight, and one caught my eye about how the Panama Canal's big expansion project is affecting global shipping:

www.nytimes.com

I think it's amazing it's still in the news a century after it's construction.

 

[Thalassicus]

The step 3 discussion period is done, so I'm ready to continue to step 4: adding the changes to the game.

I'm focused on the Armies part of the mod right now, so if anyone is interested in creating or modifying the wonders to match the plan in the 1st post, go ahead and give it a try. We don't need to do everything at once. You can add a wonder that interests you, or modify an existing one. Click here to see how to change the mod.

 

[mystikx21]

Awesome. I assume you meant to repost "the plan below" somewhere in there though.

I will look into some of these this weekend. There's several replacements that shouldn't be too hard to add in.

 

[Thalassicus]

Oh yeah, I copypasted that from the original post where it made more sense.

 

[mystikx21]

For those interested in making changes (so we're not duplicating), I PM'd and posted the following changes already.

Tech tree changes (Neusch, Notre, and Louvre removed, all proposed shifts made).
Added Holy Palace NW. Needs artwork and some text.
Changes to Hagia, Djenne, and "Mausoleum" functions, and cost in Mausoleum.
I planned on just renaming/re-artworking several wonders (Zeus, Mausoleum, Hubble, Leaning Tower) and making changes from there to keep it simple.

I/we could use help with artwork changes, text changes for civilopedia and strategy/tips, ideas on relative cost to eras (I assumed Itaipu would be more expensive), and adding the new ones. Also we would need any possible changes to AI priorities because of shifting wonders around on techs, or any changes to AI priorities on the wonders themselves. Feel free to PM me (and/or Thal I assume) or just post files here as they come.

Do we have any in-game map art for any of these as needed?

 

[sukritact]

Do we have any in-game map art for any of these as needed?

Just so you know, there's an icon for the Vatican in the game files that could be used for the holy palace.

 

[mystikx21]

Gotcha. Thanks. I hadn't gotten around to looking at art yet.

But I figured you'd know where it all is.

 

[mystikx21]

I'm borrowing the text and art (for now) for the wonders linked up earlier by sukritact (adjusted for the effects we are using).

That leaves Banuae Terraces, Bell Labs, and Duomo without art or text available (or that I haven't found). And Panama, the Dam, and the Holy Palace that text would be needed.

I assume a dummy building in all cities would handle the dam's effects? I haven't worked out (as yet) how to do the +hills effects on Lalibela or Banuae, or the Parthenon GG bonus.

 

[Ahriman]

For in-game art, can the terraces just use a version (minaturized if necessary) of the Incan Terrace farm, or Maccu Picchu?
Duomo in-game art could just steal Notre Dame as a placeholder.

A few quote possibilities (none of them great):
For the Duomo:
"The Renaissance is studded by the names of the artists and architects, with their creations recorded as great historical events."
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/arthureric297718.html

"The Renaissance of the fifteenth century was, in many things, great rather by what it designed then by what it achieved."
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/walterpate297338.html

Bell labs:
"An Institute of creative technology requires a critical mass of talented people to foster a busy exchange of ideas." Mervin Kelly, research director and president of Bell labs.
[this might be a paraphrase]

 

[mystikx21]

Mundane aspects of these wonders to discuss. Cost, culture yields, and GP rates. Update: Also AI priorities/flavors.
Costs should reflect GEM's 1.2x cost adjustment on wonders, so keep that in mind. This is a rough draft to get some numbers in the game. Several wonders for the update are not listed because they are effectively or are exactly identical to an existing wonder. Balance discourse on existing wonders changes would be useful too, but would mostly be around cost at this point.

I am trying to keep GP rates roughly the same as GEM, so that means adding at least two merchants and two artists for the three wonders I eliminated in my first round. This resulted in adding +2 engineer, +2 scientist, +2 artist, +1 merchant. The engineer and scientist points come late in the game and are much lower in representation than artists or merchants from wonders. The artist slots come earlier.

I might propose swapping the Colosseum and Parthenon effects for GPs on logical grounds, but that could be confusing for game play given that they give free GPs of the same type.

Ideas... Hollywood having a +% culture was consistent with Civ4, and Alhambra and Sydney in game. It comes around fairly late so any cultural bonus would have to be significant. LHC, Panama, and Itaipu have significant other effects, come late, and resemble existing wonders without cultural impact.

I wanted the Terraces and Churches to have some local impact if the AI managed to build them someplace hill poor, and extra culture seemed the best way to achieve that. Alternatively Lalibela (and Phra Kaew) should add faith.

Parthenon seems more flavorful to have some extra culture than Zeus did (fairly arbitrary).

LHC doesn't do very much given how late it appears so it needed to be cheap. Itaipu needed to be expensive like 3 Gorges used to be.

Wonder | Cost | Culture | GP rate | Flavors
Large Hadron Collider|1000|0|Scientist (2)|Spaceship, Wonder
Wat Phra Kaew|700|2|Artist|Gold, Religion, Culture
Itaipu Dam|2100|0|None (has Engineer)|Production, Wonder, Spaceship, Expansion
Banaue Rice Terraces|270|2|Merchant|Growth, Wonder
Panama Canal|1250|0|Merchant (2)|Gold, Expansion, Navy
Churches of Lalibela|400|2|Artist|Religion, Expansion
Hollywood|1250|2 +25%|same - Artist (2)|Happy, Culture, Wonder
Flavian Ampitheater|(same)|2|same - Merchant|Happy, Wonder, Gold
Parthenon|(same)|2| same - General|Offense, Defence

Both Wat Phra Kaew and Lalibela have +4 as well For now.

 

[Thalassicus]

In the first draft I would set the wonder costs to the same amount as other wonders of their tech level. The exception is the LHC, which as you pointed out, comes so late it has to be cheap and powerful to have any effect.

Each wonder should give 2 unless it's a culture focused wonder like the Oracle or Terra Cotta Army (both of which give 10:c5culture). Unusual culture amounts on wonders tend to get overlooked or ignored. I used to balance wonders with extra culture, but polls indicated everyone still thought the buffed-up wonders were not valuable. It takes a really big difference to get noticed.

 

[mystikx21]

Fair enough. Put them at 2 and add 2-4 faith instead. I would be posting the updated version but it snagged somewhere. Might be ready tomorrow evening.

What about a +% culture like sydney has?

Edit: nevermind answered below

 

[Thalassicus]

There are several types of map objects:

• Plots: flatland, hills, mountains, and water.
• Terrains: desert, plains, coast, ocean, ...
• Features: forests, jungles, marsh, ...
• Improvements: farms, villages, ...

I don't think a plot yield bonus exists in the game files, so we'll need to create a new effect. It should be straightforward:

1. In civup/core/Civup_Data.xml add:
   
   

   	<Table name="Building_PlotYieldChanges">
   		<Column name="BuildingType" type="text" reference="Buildings(Type)"/>
   		<Column name="PlotType" type="text" />
   		<Column name="YieldType" type="text" reference="Yields(Type)"/>
   		<Column name="Yield" type="integer" notnull="true"/>
   	</Table>

2. In gem/cities/GEC_Wonders.xml add:
   

   	<Building_NearestPlotYieldChanges>
   		<Row>
   			<BuildingType>BUILDING_BANAUE_RICE_TERRACES</BuildingType>
   			<PlotType>PLOT_HILL</PlotType>
   			<YieldType>YIELD_FOOD</YieldType>
   			<Yield>1</Yield>
   		</Row>
   	</Building_NearestPlotYieldChanges>

3. I will then need to add the code to do the effect in CiVUP_Events.lua.

 

[mystikx21]

First part was already there in Civup (because of Machu Picchu?)
Added the second. It's commented out but it's there.
(there's also this:

<Table name="Feature_HillsYieldChanges">
<Column name="FeatureType" type="text" reference="Features(Type)"/>
<Column name="YieldType" type="text" reference="Yields(Type)"/>
<Column name="Yield" type="integer"/>

in GK's features.xml, if that's useful at all. It is unused in that file)

Louvre, Notre Dame, Neusch are correctly removed from the game as available wonders for construction and from their techs. They still appear in the civilopedia and *should* be removed.

Most of the desired effects appear to be working with a few exceptions.
1) Free Engineer on Itaipu inactive (might just be offering a slot rather than a free engineer specialist?).
2) Wat Phra Kaew doesn't have culture/gold on temples (shouldn't be difficult, I just haven't gotten it to work in my own attempts).
3) Panama Canal needs a promotion for the extra naval movement point. I wanted to check to be sure there were enough promotions.
4) Movies need to be enabled as a new luxury resource, ideally with new art. Some basic code for them is included below and Hollywood will be otherwise good to go once they're active.
5) Change Zeus city bonus to Parthenon GG bonus.
6) Lua code for faith and food on hills.

I've made no cost adjustments on existing wonders where it may now be appropriate (Mostly applies to Hagia Sophia). Only change in cost was to delete the Mausoleum/Flavian from a discounted price list in GEM because it has a free building to it (with happiness). It was discounted ~10% from GK and is now the same 1.2 as other wonders.

All flavors will need to be set in the AI folder or on the wonders/buildings files somewhere. Several techs and wonders will also need adjustment.

All of the wonders will need art/splash adjustments. Art is available at the links sukritact provided earlier, plus in-game for Canal, Dam, and Vatican.

I already used what text was available there (adjusted for the new effects desired), but I haven't messed with pictures, art, or 3d in-game models. Getting them working and available was my priority. (Credit whoever did those wonders on both counts. I agree with sukritact that's a better splash for the Colosseum).

That leaves text needed for the following:
Holy Palace.
Panama Canal.
Itaipu Dam.
Banuae Rice Terraces.
Bell Laboratories.

Still need any artwork for Duomo, Bell Labs and Banuae Terraces.

These are the ones I renamed for simplicity:
Hubble- Bell Labs, Leaning Tower - Duomo (exactly the same, I moved Bell to Rocketry)
Mausoleum - Flavian Amphitheatre (added free Colosseum, removed cost adjustment and gold per GP)
Zeus - Parthenon


For multi-part named additions, these are the names I used in the xml, in case there are lua/sql needs to reference them. The in-game text is correct.
WATPHRAKAEW
BANUAE_TERRACES
HADRON_COLLIDER
PANAMA_CANAL
ITAIPU_DAM
CHURCHES_LALIBELA

Other changes: I swapped /pt from the palace back to the player.