New Wonders!

[Tarquelne]

Late-game Science wonders (LHC, Wiki) have never interested me much. While I agree that things such as the LHC easily qualify as "world wonders", the pay-out doesn't seem great enough to include more science wonders. (Unless it's an instant free tech, I guess.) OTOH, something involving espionage to help steal techs, or slow down other players would interest me. Yet both those possibilities strikes me as too unrealistic.

+30% research, but only for techs all players already have.

I really mean *all* players. Wikipedia's not great for cutting-edge research, or even serious schoolwork. It's more about bringing you up to speed on stuff that anybody who needs to know it already knows, or that nobody needs to know. (Entertainment-related content.)

Assuming Wikipedia does have a significant impact on Science, I think it'd be best treated as an educational building. Not a very potent one, except for its extreme reach. Give it a very low per/pop bonus, but applied in every city in the civ or every city in the world. Or maybe it could add a few points to Public Schools. Or the % based on science idea already mentioned.

 

[mitsho]

The CIA?

Mean, but could actually work...

I'm with sukritact on the Nazca Lines (second post). I implemented a (one-time) "culture per soldier in service" effect for the Terracotta Army, which I was pretty happy about

That's actually a genius idea for a wonder that helps conqueror civs excel in culture. One-time meaning it counts all the soldiers you have at that moment and then gives you that as culture? With the distribution of culture to your cities that GEM does, that may be a very strong wonder, pushing your borders a bit, pushing you closer to your next policy. And it challenges you to time it right. And it would be stronger for the AI as it spams more units. Does the count include naval units? (or is it based on that count in the info screen?). The only thing I see is that it has no lasting effect though... so

Terracotta Army
available with Construction
250
grants you 5 per military unit in your service at time of construction*
2
1 Great Engineer Points per turn

How many units do you have in the ancient era? I'd say, it should give you close to one policy based on the standard conqueror army.

Large Hadron Collider *snip*

Lastly I'd like to see a dam. Plenty of choices so as to pick the one that fits the best in the tech tree. Regular hydro plants could use a "nearby mountain" requirement imho.

Agreed on LHC, but isn't there the Three Gorges Dam already in the game?

Also, I do think there should be more industrial/modern/atomic era wonders.

I really mean *all* players. Wikipedia's not great for cutting-edge research, or even serious schoolwork. It's more about bringing you up to speed on stuff that anybody who needs to know it already knows, or that nobody needs to know. (Entertainment-related content.)

Assuming Wikipedia does have a significant impact on Science, I think it'd be best treated as an educational building. Not a very potent one, except for its extreme reach. Give it a very low per/pop bonus, but applied in every city in the civ or every city in the world. Or maybe it could add a few points to Public Schools.

Yes, but that effect would be completely worthless in game. If it gives only an effect for already researched techs you can use it only to catch up with others, but it would be on a late game tech, so you need the science to get there. See the problem? That's why I proposed culture or something, as science tends to get worth less the more there's around.. And per pop science (or on public schools) favours wide empires which fuels the snowball effect.

 

[Tarquelne]

Yes, but that effect would be completely worthless in game. If it gives only an effect for already researched techs you can use it only to catch up with others,

Ah - but that's not at all what I proposed to reflect Wikipedia's RL influence. Not catch-up. I specified "all" the players. Bonus to techs possessed by every single player.

So a completely different level of worthlessness than you describe. (This is also facetious. That whole post about the wiki and various wonders was. (Rule of thumb: Any post where I mention both penis-envy and bears should always be treated as less-than serious.)

 

[Gamerwiz]

I was being only half facetious with the CIA suggestion, it actually makes sense. The organization was created for the purpose of initiating a coup.

As for wikipedia, I think having it give culture is silly, as is only being useful for catching up. Like I mentioned already, I think it would make sense if wikipedia as a wonder offered science production based either on global science output or global population (or global specialist pipulation), if that sort of variable can be retrieved. My reasoning is that wikipedia relies on participation from both the community of researchers, academics, and industry specialists, as well as average people, and on a global scale. Yes, wikipedia isn't curing cancer in of itself, so providing research might not seem accurate, but it would be silly to have it do anything else, and things need to be looked at from a gameplay perspective as well as historical and realistic ones. Anyway that's my thought.

 

[bwoww78]

I was being only half facetious with the CIA suggestion, it actually makes sense. The organization was created for the purpose of initiating a coup.

As for wikipedia, I think having it give culture is silly, as is only being useful for catching up. Like I mentioned already, I think it would make sense if wikipedia as a wonder offered science production based either on global science output or global population (or global specialist pipulation), if that sort of variable can be retrieved. My reasoning is that wikipedia relies on participation from both the community of researchers, academics, and industry specialists, as well as average people, and on a global scale. Yes, wikipedia isn't curing cancer in of itself, so providing research might not seem accurate, but it would be silly to have it do anything else, and things need to be looked at from a gameplay perspective as well as historical and realistic ones. Anyway that's my thought.

maybe, to help in mapping to gameplay purposes, you could pull back from wikipedia specifically and make a more broadly applicable (and historically critical wonder): the Internet.

(for all i know, this was already recommended or is already in game, but i thought i would mention it after seeing some of this discussion)

 

[mystikx21]

Agreed on LHC, but isn't there the Three Gorges Dam already in the game?

Nope. Just regular Hydros. 3 Gorges was in Civ 4.

I like that Terracotta Army idea. As far as the borders element, it could just be a global culture pop that essentially results in a free policy. Or much smaller amounts of culture per unit over a period of time (say pre-industrial? classical to early renaissance?). Or a free border expansion of tile(s) in every city, and so on. It just doesn't do much of use right now.

Pretty much all intelligence services operate in part by both gathering information on potential rivals and allies and then exploiting that. Not sure that "the CIA" is a bad suggestion. "FBI" is pretty close to the NIA as designed in the game as it tends to run many counter-intelligence investigations. You'd want something else for "offensive" potential.

Wikipedia is sounding a lot like "the internet" from civ4. I vote more on culture or happiness than research. I have yet to think of a way that it would aid much new research. It mostly makes us nerds feel happier for knowing many things and gives us a place to document memes and comic book debates for posterity. Still. A mechanic where it adds a global science multiplier, cross borders, is interesting, but I'm not sure how easy that is to do.

Ah - but that's not at all what I proposed to reflect Wikipedia's RL influence. ...

So a completely different level of worthlessness than you describe.

 

[mitsho]

Nope. Just regular Hydros. 3 Gorges was in Civ 4.

Really? I could've sworn..

I like that Terracotta Army idea. As far as the borders element, it could just be a global culture pop that essentially results in a free policy. Or much smaller amounts of culture per unit over a period of time (say pre-industrial? classical to early renaissance?). Or a free border expansion of tile(s) in every city, and so on. It just doesn't do much of use right now.

You misunderstand, in VEM, every culture acquired is distributed to the cities and helps push borders. Thus, that would be a necessary sideeffect to make it different from the Oracle.

Another effect could be culture for each unit built, i.e. when it appears on the map, it gives a small amount of culture.

 

[rhammer640]

Just a general wonder thought, but I like the mechanic where you can only build the wonder if you are say for example near a mountain or on a coastal tile etc. I think it adds to the depth of city positioning and also that you wont end up with just one city with all your wonders and none anywhere else. It also prevents the situation i find myself in where i look at what i can build in a city and am like, "hmmm well i guess ill build that". This is less fun for me than having to make a conscious decision to prep for a wonder i want for a certain city etc.

If we are adding more wonders I would like to see them with qualifiers to being built. However im not sure if anyone else feels the same way.

 

[bwoww78]

If we are adding more wonders I would like to see them with qualifiers to being built. However im not sure if anyone else feels the same way.

i agree and also appreciate the planning/goal aspect. it's a good qualification for stronger wonders, when done within reason.

 

[mystikx21]

You misunderstand, in VEM, every culture acquired is distributed to the cities and helps push borders. Thus, that would be a necessary sideeffect to make it different from the Oracle.

Another effect could be culture for each unit built, i.e. when it appears on the map, it gives a small amount of culture.

In GK, culture acquired from a golden age applies to the social policy avenues. I'm not sure that it does apply to a city (I haven't really checked as border expansion usually isn't my priority there, perhaps it does) It is however broken out from the regular culture on listing it as culture per turn.

There's also the city ruins effect of receiving X culture, where it could work like that.

Some culture on building a unit would a lot more sense if possible.


I play(ed) a lot of Civ4 (and 3). And the drop of the Hoover/3 Gorges as a wonder was a little jarring.

 

[Thalassicus]

If we include a computer-based world wonder, Bell Labs would be the best candidate. That one institution invented everything in the modern computer:

• Transistors: the basic hardware component of computers. Without them the internet, space program, cellphones, and everything else you know about modern computers would be impossible.
• C and C++: Civilization and nearly all non-embedded software is coded in one of these programming languages, or their descendents.
• Unix: CivFanatics and most websites run on a version of this operating system.

Thinking about everything they did, I'm really considering adding Bell Labs as a world wonder.

 

[Pouakai]

Thal, thought you might want to know (If you don't already) that there's art ingame, both icon and splash, for both the Panama Canal and the Three Gorges Dam

 

[GenjiKhan]

If we include a computer-based world wonder, Bell Labs would be the best candidate.

Seems a very interesting choice of a world wonder for Industrial era . Possibly,one effect of this wonder could be making all the academies in the city which is built yield +60% more /per turn .

 

[mitsho]

Thinking about everything they did, I'm really considering adding Bell Labs as a world wonder.

So, what are you considering so far

The Thee Gorges Dam should act as a continent wide hammer booster.
The Panama Canal can simply give +1 to ships and +50% in the city

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm not going to make any decisions until the full two weeks have passed. This is the brainstorming phase.

 

[SgtCiv]

If we are adding more wonders I would like to see them with qualifiers to being built. However im not sure if anyone else feels the same way.

I agree with you, I would like for most wonders to have more qualifiers in order to build them. ie...:
1. Pyramid's - a source of improved stone.
2. Great Lighthouse - should require a lighthouse, not give a free one. How do build something that is "GREAT" without first building a sub-form version first.
3. Great Library - Same as Great Lighthouse.

Just a few ideas from things that bother me. IMO - every World Wonder should have some kind of requirement in order to build them. That is what would make them special and not just something that you just build.

 

[Ahriman]

My general thoughts:

I'd be very careful about adding new wonders. That can really change the tech-balance (in terms of the relative value of various techs). If there are too many valuable wonders around, then the advantage of having a tech-lead is reduced, because you can't build the wonders before other people get them. And too many wonders also just makes them feel less "special".

The late game seems the most lacking in Wonders, but late-game wonders will need to be cost-effective (ie large effects and/or only modest build costs) in order to compensate for the fact that they're only around for a few turns. I'd stay away from adding more early game wonders.

In terms of some of the suggestions here:
Temple of Laibella or Nazca lines seem interesting, but on what techs would they go? I don't think there are more early game techs that need additional effects or more wonders. And I play without the extra wonders DLC.

I think "concept" type wonders are already largely handled by social policies. I'd mostly lean away from wonders with one-shot effects. Capturing wonders should also be profitable; there should be a danger in being a wonder-whore that you just make yourself a very tempting target.

A late-game wonder that gave Faith might not be a bad idea. I don't like the idea of more faith producing buildings, but a Wonder that lets one civ have religious advantage in the late-game would be interesting.
You could move Artist-boosting potential to a Hollywood wonder, and have faith from Cristo Redentor.

I like the idea of Bell Labs (or Skunkworks) as late game research booster. Though late-game research boosters need to be fairly cheap or they're not really worth building.

I don't think the Great Wall needs any additional boosts.
If you wanted an Espionage-boosting wonder, maybe one of the Hashashin castles - perhaps Alamut - could be a medieval era espionage opportunity? That might provide some much-needed Persian flavor.
Himeji Castle doesn't really feel like a good fit for Espionage - possibly something ninja-related?
The Kremlin would be very good though. A defensive bonus there is a bit weird. CIA/KGB would also of course work, but these risk duplicating the Intelligence Agency national wonder - which is already boring and deserves a new effect.

A trans-continental railway wonder, or similar, could reduce the cost of improvement upkeep. Might be valuable for a sprawling empire.
I think in general the most interesting wonders are those that favor particular playstyles.

I don't really like the idea of giving warmongers a culture boost, I don't think warmongers *should* be good at culture, but a one-shot boost is doable.

I'd oppose adding qualifiers to wonders being built. I already think the mountain-presence is unfortunate. Requiring a lighthouse to build the great lighthouse would make it worthless. You should have to compete for wonders through the tech-race, not just get the chance to build them because no-one else had a good city that met some other requirement.

 

[Moriboe]

One-time meaning it counts all the soldiers you have at that moment and then gives you that as culture? [...] Does the count include naval units? [...] How many units do you have in the ancient era? I'd say, it should give you close to one policy based on the standard conqueror army.

Yes, I counted only the military units alive upon wonder completion, using player:GetNumMilitaryUnits(), so including ships. I put the culture bonus on 30 culture per unit, but found it to be the weakest of the culture wonders (Stonehenge, Oracle) by a small margin that way. This is not taking into account GEM culture distribution, which I am ignorant about

 

[Thalassicus]

I'd be very careful about adding new wonders. That can really change the tech-balance (in terms of the relative value of various techs). If there are too many valuable wonders around, then the advantage of having a tech-lead is reduced, because you can't build the wonders before other people get them. And too many wonders also just makes them feel less "special".

The late game seems the most lacking in Wonders, but late-game wonders will need to be cost-effective (ie large effects and/or only modest build costs) in order to compensate for the fact that they're only around for a few turns. I'd stay away from adding more early game wonders.

I agree with this. I'd also like to say this thread is an acceptable place to propose changes to existing wonders, like the Terra Cotta Army suggestions made earlier. I feel changing existing wonders has a lower bar for entry than adding new ones.

 

[mitsho]

Oh, I do agree as well. But my main point made in my first post in this thread is that the late game IS sorely lacking in wonders. And - extrapolating from there - that Civ5/G&K and VEM/GEM as well suffer a lot from focusing a lot on the early game and leaving the late game out, since "everything is decided by then". That's also the biggest problem for late game wonders, that runaway science civs can build them all quite easily. Apart from prohibiting runaway scientists, creating more wonders in the late game then actually combats that effect, not adds to the problem.