New Zealand Terror Attack

[Zardnaar]

So farmers found the magical factory where illegal guns are manufactured?

I know you aren't really obtuse, so I'm guessing you have some reason for just refusing to acknowledge the point, but let me try one more time. There is no "illegal gun" anywhere that was not manufactured legally, then legally sold to a righteous legal permitted gun owner. How it came to be an "illegal gun" can involve a wide variety of paths (unregulated and undocumented sales, theft, lost and found, change of regulatory status of the owner, etc), but the key point is that every one of those paths originates at some legally owned gun. So one way to interdict in ALL of those paths is to snip them at the origin by eliminating the legal gun.

No what I am saying a few illegal guns here were never legal in the 1st place.

Pistols here are very hard to get hold off, armed robberies are often old sawed off shotgun or rifle. Full autos gave been illegal since 1992. You can't carry a pistol here, only in your car boot to and from a gun range.

You can get a collectors license for an automatic that has been disabled.

That leaves things like rifles and shotguns as the most common weapons. Something like an AR 15 is legal but can't have a magazine size larger than 7 rounds and you can't buy them.

So the shooter somehow acquired them probably oversea maybe even in the mail.

I expect them to ban mssa leaving single shot rifles or small magazines as the legal options.

Every now and then there is a story here if guns being handed in as grand dad dies and the family finds his ww2 luger or whatever.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No what I am saying a few illegal guns here were never legal in the 1st place.

I get that that is what you are saying. What I don't get is how you can't see that it is clearly incorrect.

For a gun to be "never legal in the first place" it would have to have been manufactured illegally. Are we talking about some sort of zip gun? I mean, they are the exception. Guy mounts a cartridge in a bit of tubing and jury rigs some sort of firing mechanism, that's illegal right from the gate.

But no matter how you come at it this "illegal gun," other than such zip guns, started out life in some factory somewhere and got sold to some legally approved buyer. Only afterward did it somehow become illegal. The "raw material" from which 'illegal' guns are made is...legally owned and registered guns.

 

[Zardnaar]

I get that that is what you are saying. What I don't get is how you can't see that it is clearly incorrect.

For a gun to be "never legal in the first place" it would have to have been manufactured illegally. Are we talking about some sort of zip gun? I mean, they are the exception. Guy mounts a cartridge in a bit of tubing and jury rigs some sort of firing mechanism, that's illegal right from the gate.

But no matter how you come at it this "illegal gun," other than such zip guns, started out life in some factory somewhere and got sold to some legally approved buyer. Only afterward did it somehow become illegal. The "raw material" from which 'illegal' guns are made is...legally owned and registered guns.

They would have been brought into the country illegally or is an older weapon. Assuming it's not stolen.

Turns out there's a loophole in the law. It's illegal to use a. 30 round magazine or 100 round drum magazine but not to buy them.

Clarification class E licence to use the magazines, class A to buy them. Shooter got a class A in Nov 2017.

 

[ashendashin]

I get that that is what you are saying. What I don't get is how you can't see that it is clearly incorrect.

For a gun to be "never legal in the first place" it would have to have been manufactured illegally. Are we talking about some sort of zip gun? I mean, they are the exception. Guy mounts a cartridge in a bit of tubing and jury rigs some sort of firing mechanism, that's illegal right from the gate.

But no matter how you come at it this "illegal gun," other than such zip guns, started out life in some factory somewhere and got sold to some legally approved buyer. Only afterward did it somehow become illegal. The "raw material" from which 'illegal' guns are made is...legally owned and registered guns.

lol ban mass weapon production see how well that goes. Can't wait for the mass murder standard to get switched to IEDs in countries outside of the middle east and the introduction of all the other sorts of homemade weapons which include guns along with the new illegal markets that provide even more disgusting methods of murder.
Who knows maybe gassing buildings will become a fad when underground weapons trade gets an endorsement as large as the end of regulated and widely appreciated legal trade.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

They would have been brought into the country illegally.

Ummmm...okay...so we are equating "in New Zealand" with "exists"?

It was manufactured legally, but not in NZ so that doesn't count.

It was originally sold legally, but not in NZ so that doesn't count.

Eventually it was brought to NZ illegally, so it has "always been illegal." Okay then.

While it is always hazardous to draw parallels with things USian, this is so parallel that it is impossible to miss. I know a guy who sells illegal guns in California. He 'makes' them out of guns bought legally in Arizona. There is absolutely nothing California can do, since they are already illegal in California. What is there to do, make them "illegaller"? The obvious problem isn't with gun regulations in California, it is with lack of gun regulations in Arizona where the 'raw material' to 'make' illegal guns is sold by the truckload. Arizona exports this 'raw material' in pretty much every direction.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

ban mass weapon production see how well that goes.

Great idea, since allowing it is basically going crappy, at best. I've operated my whole life on the theory that when something is broken you can't really do any harm trying to fix it.

As to your specific objections, I'll worry the next time I run into someone who might get angry and in the heat of the moment build an IED and blow me up. Funny how no one I know who would know where to even start trying to build something that would reliably blow up on command is the kind of hothead that pulls out a gun because they've "been dissed."

 

[ashendashin]

Great idea, since allowing it is basically going crappy, at best. I've operated my whole life on the theory that when something is broken you can't really do any harm trying to fix it.

As to your specific objections, I'll worry the next time I run into someone who might get angry and in the heat of the moment build an IED and blow me up. Funny how no one I know who would know where to even start trying to build something that would reliably blow up on command is the kind of hothead that pulls out a gun because they've "been dissed."

Right so continuing to ignore the feasibility of banning weapon production and the subsequent seizure of existing guns...
Yeah good luck lowering the number of hotheads who can get easy access to lethal weaponry. Gangs who love getting in touch with them would surely not see an increase in business when suddenly they become the sole source of easy access to something as simple as a boomstick. The lack of industry standards would only make their jobs harder, surely.

Ok this sarcasm is painful even for me. Banning legal weapons production is the stupidest thing you could possibly attempt. Wars would start before you can even begin to consider anything else if such a thing managed to gain traction in the first place.

 

[Zardnaar]

Thanks

Ummmm...okay...so we are equating "in New Zealand" with "exists"?

It was manufactured legally, but not in NZ so that doesn't count.

It was originally sold legally, but not in NZ so that doesn't count.

Eventually it was brought to NZ illegally, so it has "always been illegal." Okay then.

While it is always hazardous to draw parallels with things USian, this is so parallel that it is impossible to miss. I know a guy who sells illegal guns in California. He 'makes' them out of guns bought legally in Arizona. There is absolutely nothing California can do, since they are already illegal in California. What is there to do, make them "illegaller"? The obvious problem isn't with gun regulations in California, it is with lack of gun regulations in Arizona where the 'raw material' to 'make' illegal guns is sold by the truckload. Arizona exports this 'raw material' in pretty much every direction.

Strawman argument. It's illegal here is all I care about.

Culturally gun violence is uber rare changing the law won't do much. Cars kill way more people.
Yeah there's some loopholes they can look at but guns are reasonably common here gun crime very rare.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Ok this sarcasm is painful

Good. I thought it was pretty stupid myself.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Strawman argument. It's illegal here is all I care about.

LOL...care to explain how that was a "strawman argument," or are you just one of those people that grabs for some sort of magical buzzword to try to spit out a hook of your own making that you totally swallowed?

What you care about is totally irrelevant to the blatantly incorrect statement you made and then chose to defend against all odds. Other than over there at Ashendashin's House of Boomsticks no one is producing illegal guns made from anything other than legal guns. And if you think that vastly reducing access to the raw material wouldn't make a difference in the amount of product that's on you.

 

[ashendashin]

Culturally gun violence is uber rare changing the law won't do much. Cars kill way more people.
Yeah there's some loopholes they can look at but guns are reasonably common here gun crime very rare.

I'm gonna just try to direct things back to NZ even though what I ask probably has an easy answer and will possibly be viewed as disrespectful.
So NZ is a very free country I hear. What made the event stand out to me was the lack of any sort of response short of fleeing(totally OK just hold on) from both the victims and the surrounding neighborhood(disrespectful part is that I watched the vid). One would think that the combination of peaceful living and common access to arms would only encourage the government to raise awareness of the necessity of secure communities. So I guess a question that I'm kinda forcing out here in an attempt to distract from the inane gun control and ideological extremism talk is if you think awareness of handling guns lacks in NZ despite their common ownership?
The question bugs me since it looks worthless but man this thread is just a mess.

 

[Zardnaar]

LOL...care to explain how that was a "strawman argument," or are you just one of those people that grabs for some sort of magical buzzword to try to spit out a hook of your own making that you totally swallowed?

What you care about is totally irrelevant to the blatantly incorrect statement you made and then chose to defend against all odds. Other than over there at Ashendashin's House of Boomsticks no one is producing illegal guns made from anything other than legal guns. And if you think that vastly reducing access to the raw material wouldn't make a difference in the amount of product that's on you.

They might have been made legally somewhere in the world but your argument is stupid in the New Zealand context. Each farm tends to have guns not all of them legal. We're a farming nation.

We're also an island nation. We have a handful of main ports a few secondary ports down to small fishing villages down to private NZers owning there own docks.
Also only about 1% of shipping containers are searched. If you are hell bent on smuggling guns (or anything else) it's not that hard if you have access to a quiet port. Foreign fishing boats have been coming here for decades and trade takes place off the books . Soviet boats used to have caviar and vodka onboard the crew wanted consumer electronics.

It's impossible in this country to stop things at the borders.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm gonna just try to direct things back to NZ even though what I ask probably has an easy answer and will possibly be viewed as disrespectful.
So NZ is a very free country I hear. What made the event stand out to me was the lack of any sort of response short of fleeing(totally OK just hold on) from both the victims and the surrounding neighborhood(disrespectful part is that I watched the vid). One would think that the combination of peaceful living and common access to arms would only encourage the government to raise awareness of the necessity of secure communities. So I guess a question that I'm kinda forcing out here in an attempt to distract from the inane gun control and ideological extremism talk is if you think awareness of handling guns lacks in NZ despite their common ownership?
The question bugs me since it looks worthless but man this thread is just a mess.

We have not had a mass shooting for decades at least in terms of something like this. Previous ones are usually someone goes nuts and kills their families the death toll is more like 2-4 people not a mass shooting in public.

Gun ownership in the country and farms is really common, in the cities its mostly hunters. Could also be a generational thing, schools used to have shooting as a sport here but no more. Guns IRL sound a bit different than the movies, so IDK if the people froze (I didn't see that part of the video and stopped watching in a hurry) or recognised what was happening. People in cities most of them have never fired guns IRL. Mass shootings is something that happens in other countries. Most of the people in the Mosque probably were not here for the last one (which was not caught on camera for the most part), or would not remember it that well (it was 1990).

Some Muslims interviewed did say when they pray they tune out other things and/or leave it in Gods hands. One thought he would be a martyr and was at peace while it was going on. Apparently at the 2nd shooting site they did fight back and got the gun off the shooter who fled and then was rammed off the road and arrested.

The timeline is something like this.

Before the shooting he puts up a manifesto.

Video starts and runs for 17 minutes or whatever. 9 minutes after shooting starts police sirens are heard.

While the cops are responding to the 1st Mosque shooting he drives to the second mosque, video cuts out on the way. He shoots up that Mosque and apparently the rifle is taken off him. He flees, armed cops get him later start to finish was around 32 minutes.

This is better than what we have here on our media (they're asking people not to view the video made)..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...ccfeec87a61_story.html?utm_term=.422221384b8e

Per capita we have a lot of guns (4.6 million population, 1.2 million guns), the people with them tend to own more than 1 I suspect. Duck hunting season use a shot gun, after a deer use a high powered rifle, after a rabbit use a .22. Personally have not touched one since the 90's.

1 shooter, 5 guns (all legal), not a Kiwi is the most current information.

 

[Zardnaar]

Latest stuff.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/

If you're an American you might find its not to alarmist by comparison.

 

[ashendashin]

Latest stuff.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/

If you're an American you might find its not to alarmist by comparison.

Wow that one's a lot lighter and more to the point. I do think the details matter, but Washingtonpost used them for fearmongering like all of our disgusting American media.
The worst was that prayer mindset present in the mosque. Tuning out what was happening was definitely a problem in the first shooting.
It sucks that your schools don't have shooting sports anymore. Cars just kept driving even when he was walking about...
I suppose that's enough for details. Thank you. The whole innocence thing annoys me. There's nothing life-ruining about being aware of how modern violence works. If anything it's healthy IMO. Well, when it's taught at a friendly community level anyhow.

 

[Zardnaar]

Wow that one's a lot lighter and more to the point. I do think the details matter, but Washingtonpost used them for fearmongering like all of our disgusting American media.
The worst was that prayer mindset present in the mosque. Tuning out what was happening was definitely a problem in the first shooting.
It sucks that your schools don't have shooting sports anymore. Cars just kept driving even when he was walking about...
I suppose that's enough for details. Thank you. The whole innocence thing annoys me. There's nothing life-ruining about being aware of how modern violence works. If anything it's healthy IMO. Well, when it's taught at a friendly community level anyhow.

Cars driving past what else are you gonna do even if you see the guy with the guns?

As I said basically we don't have mass shootings here. You just don't see guys walking down the street with guns here. There is no open carry law her and its illegal for cops to have guns on them in normal circumstances.

Alot of tourist or American exiles like it here because its peaceful for the most part. Kind of like the American ideal from the 50's or early 60's. Germans are a bit more direct (NZ is like Germany in the 1980's".

We just don't have the extremes here for the most part, even the local ethnic gangs, skin heads, neo nazis etc are fairly mellow by comparison (I have worked with a few never felt endangered with them).

You have more chance of being killed by a dog than a gun here.

Unless you're a hunter or farmer (or know one) odds are you won't be that familiar with guns.

We have our own problems (booze, drugs, suicide, social problems), gun violence isn't a big one (drunk drivers are).

 

[ashendashin]

Cars driving past what else are you gonna do even if you see the guy with the guns?

Sorry, I was worried about that part. Just one part of the vid that got to me when a woman was begging for help. Details aren't so healthy when actually faced with violence

I don't mean to tell you how things are in your country. Probably that it was a place of prayer was the only relevant factor when it comes to how people responded given that he wasn't there for that long in the end. It was disheartening to see a community so easily intruded.

 

[Hrothbern]

I hope that New Zealand gets back its normal and good innocence after the mourning and after dealing with the shooters and the vultures around the issue.

 

[nzcamel]

Ben Shapiro has now been cited in two fascist terrorist attacks and pewdiepie in this, and the fact that super famous people can run around saying "Muslims destroy" and live in dirt and are inherently bad, and throw up Nazi imagery and denigrate Jewish people routinely, and we spend time debating if it's satire or stupid edginess or a valuable inclusion in the marketplace of ideas is a goddamn joke.

He also frequently cited Candace Owens, who praised Hitler recently and has said France needs to arm themselves against "Muslim invasion" and has been crowing about birthrates for years.

Just a total collection of garbage humans who should not be taken seriously or given any benefit of the doubt.

The fact that we also have a grand total of like, one major US politician calling for dismantling companies like Amazon and Facebook and Google is a joke. Every single thing runs through them, they are billion dollar companies, and yet Youtube is the biggest jumping off point for alt-right and Nazi ideology in the world, and his whole stream was on Facebook forever.

​

Deplatofrming toxic influencers actually works. Does anyone still remember Milo Yiannopoulos? He is selling his crap to pay off his multimillion-dollar debt after even the right wingers dropped him.

Neither in mine but he is the number one rated news pundit in the country and he touts white nationalism in code all year long. The fact that it’s inspiring terrorist attacks needs to be acknowledged.

The guy who did it cited Trump and the others. Wasn't a kiwi although we're not immune to home grown idiots.

I am not surprised this loon mass murderer cited ben shapiro. That specimen's racism has reached ridiculous levels.

And we're already seeing a shadow of it here:

Right wingers won't apologise for their irresponsible behaviour because that would be submitting to the nasty left.

I can think of a few other posters here who would have views like that.​

​

People used to joke a mass shooting would be livestreamed. Who would have expected [poo]posting(Spyro the Dragon and ethno-nationalism is one hell of a connection) would have lethal consequences? We truly do live in interesting times.

@SS-18 ICBM gets it. Spyro. The rest of you? Nuts. Read this accurate article from the Atlantic (a progressive leaning media outlet who shouldn't be too offensive to left wing sensibilities) and then find a little nuance. I like to think Civ players are smarter than the average bear:


'Significant portions of the manifesto appear to be an elaborate troll, written to prey on the mainstream media’s worst tendencies. As the journalist Robert Evans noted, “This manifesto is a trap … laid for journalists searching for the meaning behind this horrific crime. There is truth in there, and valuable clues to the shooter’s radicalization, but it is buried beneath a great deal of, for lack of a better word, ‘horsehockyposting.’”
...

That doesn’t mean the racism expressed throughout the 74-page manifesto isn’t genuine. But the complexities of the crime are still unfolding, and as the New York Times journalist Kevin Roose cautioned, “The NZ shooter’s apparent manifesto is thick with irony and meta-text and very easy to misinterpret.” Unfortunately, when journalists report on these horrific acts, the shooter’s hateful messages are sometimes amplified in the process. But the origins of that hate and the shooter’s public postings do need to be examined, even when taking them at face value is difficult.'

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/the-shooters-manifesto-was-designed-to-troll/585058/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_term=2019-03-15T16:21:27&fbclid=IwAR2LDuKbU_VpNhFW0qM8SUEgW_VvyhMylOgKXR67dFaoxSKJfb5vQLlFjhg

I'm gonna just try to direct things back to NZ even though what I ask probably has an easy answer and will possibly be viewed as disrespectful.
So NZ is a very free country I hear. What made the event stand out to me was the lack of any sort of response short of fleeing(totally OK just hold on) from both the victims and the surrounding neighborhood(disrespectful part is that I watched the vid). One would think that the combination of peaceful living and common access to arms would only encourage the government to raise awareness of the necessity of secure communities. So I guess a question that I'm kinda forcing out here in an attempt to distract from the inane gun control and ideological extremism talk is if you think awareness of handling guns lacks in NZ despite their common ownership?
The question bugs me since it looks worthless but man this thread is just a mess.

Like others have said while we have relatively high rates of gun ownership, they're concentrated in the hands of farmers and hunters in ways you would see less of in the States and some other countries. It's also illegal to have guns to use in self defense; and our culture is exceedingly immature about them; with zero historical perspective on how life was before them.

We had a mass shooting at a place called Aromoana a few decades back, and gun laws were tightened significantly then (though yes, not as far as Aussies a few years after that). Further tightening will happen, yet it is clear from what just happened that there is no hope of stopping this again eventually. We have a massive coast line (esp in the South Island) for a small population, and much of it is isolated and uncontrollable.

One last detail that may have been missed - a Muslim hero got a gun off the guy at the Linwood Mosque, and the coward fled. Good guy with a gun he didn't even know how to fire saved plenty of lives.

I don't think they'll have any trouble sentencing this guy to the maximum, which is life. I just looked and the longest minimum (ie non parole period) sentence in NZ for homicide is currently 30 years for a guy who killed 3 people in a robbery after a string of other offences.

NZ law allows for life without the possibility of parole. It's never so far happened, but you'd think that will change here. (Australia has about a dozen people in for life without the possibility of parole)

Yeah, our violent crime sentences are often a joke. This guy will get preventative detention though and will never leave jail.​

 

[Estebonrober]

​

​

@SS-18 ICBM gets it. Spyro. The rest of you? Nuts. Read this accurate article from the Atlantic (a progressive leaning media outlet who shouldn't be too offensive to left wing sensibilities) and then find a little nuance. I like to think Civ players are smarter than the average bear:


'Significant portions of the manifesto appear to be an elaborate troll, written to prey on the mainstream media’s worst tendencies. As the journalist Robert Evans noted, “This manifesto is a trap … laid for journalists searching for the meaning behind this horrific crime. There is truth in there, and valuable clues to the shooter’s radicalization, but it is buried beneath a great deal of, for lack of a better word, ‘****posting.’”
...

That doesn’t mean the racism expressed throughout the 74-page manifesto isn’t genuine. But the complexities of the crime are still unfolding, and as the New York Times journalist Kevin Roose cautioned, “The NZ shooter’s apparent manifesto is thick with irony and meta-text and very easy to misinterpret.” Unfortunately, when journalists report on these horrific acts, the shooter’s hateful messages are sometimes amplified in the process. But the origins of that hate and the shooter’s public postings do need to be examined, even when taking them at face value is difficult.'

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/the-shooters-manifesto-was-designed-to-troll/585058/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_term=2019-03-15T16:21:27&fbclid=IwAR2LDuKbU_VpNhFW0qM8SUEgW_VvyhMylOgKXR67dFaoxSKJfb5vQLlFjhg



Like others have said while we have relatively high rates of gun ownership, they're concentrated in the hands of farmers and hunters in ways you would see less of in the States and some other countries. It's also illegal to have guns to use in self defense; and our culture is exceedingly immature about them; with zero historical perspective on how life was before them.

We had a mass shooting at a place called Aromoana a few decades back, and gun laws were tightened significantly then (though yes, not as far as Aussies a few years after that). Further tightening will happen, yet it is clear from what just happened that there is no hope of stopping this again eventually. We have a massive coast line (esp in the South Island) for a small population, and much of it is isolated and uncontrollable.

One last detail that may have been missed - a Muslim hero got a gun off the guy at the Linwood Mosque, and the coward fled. Good guy with a gun he didn't even know how to fire saved plenty of lives.

Yeah, our violent crime sentences are often a joke. This guy will get preventative detention though and will never leave jail.​

Are you trying to claim a false flag operation on this as evidence because doing so is so flimsy it would expose lets say a certain bias that wouldn't allow me to be considerate of your statements? For my quote it doesn't even matter if you were right the context of this isolationist, nationalistic, nativist crap going on around the western world is still the background and that narrative is definitely a far right wing narrative. I live in the USA, we don't have hate speech laws and I am real weary about starting down that road. That said this kind of talk has inspired white terrorists for a generation now. Acknowledging that would be nice that way decent people would stop talking about immigration in these terms.