Another test map: View attachment 139448
News: GOTM 11 Pre-Game Discussion
- Thread starter ainwood
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redemption438
Warlord
DaviddesJ said:
Aha! Three responses to this:
1. It may be a piece of cake, but it's still about how fast you can do it. How fast you can get to Seals, and then how fast the conquest.
2. If this is true, you're basically saying this GOTM is a piece of cake anyway.
So why not try on this builder/conquest variant to make it interesting?3. You might be right, but it really depends on things we don't know yet. My natural monarch strategy would be to take over one or two AIs early for anything but a cultural victory. I'm saying eliminate this option, which eliminates some flexibility, and makes it at least a little more difficult depending on how the early game sorts out.
Besides, UUs are fun. I don't play into the modern age much, and have never played Roosevelt or Washington, so this is my only chance to use a Navy Seal...
Markus5 said:
You mean there willl be people who don't have sufficient troops but haven't been destroyed by barbs?
DaviddesJ
Deity
redemption438 said:2. If this is true, you're basically saying this GOTM is a piece of cake anyway.
I don't have the patience to play that long, once I'm already way ahead. Maybe with an additional limit of only 3 cities (or some small number)?
culdeus
Emperor
Jar Jar Binks said:
good god
Survived to 1AD 1 in 5 times.
pigswill
fly (one day)
Am I right in thinking that barbs can 'see' 4 or 5 tiles; if they see an improvement within 4-5 tiles they'll head for it; if they can't see an improvement they'll attack the fortified archer/axe instead; therefore you need to keep fogbusters quite a distance from your city.
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
Hint: Archery is your friend.
I can survive pretty well, no problems there...but the AI is insanely powerful militarily. Know when to vulture territory from another civ...
I can survive pretty well, no problems there...but the AI is insanely powerful militarily. Know when to vulture territory from another civ...
redemption438
Warlord
DaviddesJ said:
Fair enough... but 3 cities (4 if you want to get some of the national wonders)? Oof. That would be impressive. I don't think the AI is going to drag that much at this level. Not the leading AIs anyway.
Déja
Beyond the Mod
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2005
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- 353
pigswill said:
As I pointed out in my discussion of the Raging Barbarian code, you are correct. Their first priority that is different from a normal barbarian is to attack a city, then to go for something to pillage as far as 4 spaces away, then look for a city 3 spaces away. They're mad evil!
1 day to go until play starts, and this is how I've decided to play the early game (well, at least, assuming nothing happens to change my mind).
- I'll settle in place.
- The starting warrior will head off in the hope of worker-stealing, though I know it's an iffy chance. If he hasn't found anyone by about turn 15, then he's coming straight back home to bolster my defences.
- I'll build workboat first, and second workboat as soon as I can.
- I'll build a settler before the worker. My reasoning is if there's no worker improvements then there's less I have to defend against barbs. I'm hoping if I can get a 2nd city down to the NE, that'll largely shield my capital from the barbs, and then I can start thinking about setting a worker to work, with less worry about his work constantly being pillaged.
- I'll beeline for hinduism. It's dubious whether I'll get it I know, but if I'm not building a worker very soon, then I'm not in a hurry to get worker techs. And +7/turn culture will be very useful at FOW-busting
- After I get (or miss) hinduism I'll head straight for archery to get my defences up.
- Then I'll go for AH in the hope of chariots. Hooking up any horses will be high priority (and of course that'll be the point where I'll need a worker).
- Then I think I'll risk going for BW. I'm not looking forward to facing barb axemen, but the starting spot looks perfect for poprushing.
- Finally I'll have a go at Oracle, probably to get COL slingshot (with the need to keep defences up, it's probably pointless trying to be more ambitious than that with the Oracle.
JerichoHill
Bedrock of Knowledge
I do not think America starts with mysticism, so I think going for hinduism is a very bad strategy
Been playing a few test starts myself (thanks for the saves, Svelte and Jar-Jar) and came to the following conclusions:
Found in Place
Considered moving the settler 2E to make room for one more city in the west and get a more central capital location but decided it`s not worth it: It loses you early access to the forests (unless there are more in the fog, your only source of shields would then be hills, with one food), health bonuses (unhealthiness will kick in at size 5 without river and forest) and you will need to fogbust in the west until you have the city up – which will then overlap heavily and be of little use so close to the map’s border. Founding in place gets you two fish, three hills, three forests and loads of watered grassland; a perfectly good mix.
First Build: Workboat
A no-brainer, really: Fast growth, 2 gold and you can make full use of the mined hills to spawn units later. Working the forest, you will get this in 14 turns, at pop 2.
Research Mining / BW first, then hunting / archery
Yes, you can prioritise BW and still have archers by the time the barbs show up. It’s tight and you won’t have many of them at first, but with the lake and the western border, it’s a manageable risk. On the plus side, you will be able to whip sooner (very advantageous with a happy cap of 5 and all that fish), and know whether there is bronze nearby.
Barracks, Worker, then Archers as needed
Working the fish and one forest, build barracks until you hit size 3, then switch to worker and whip at the first opportunity. This will let you work mined hills soon, complete the barracks and spawn veteran archers in line with the barbarian onslaught.
Next steps are a settler (whipped), another workboat and more archers, as the situation dictates. Research will likely be wheel, AH and/or pottery and mysticism in time for the second city.
Have played three variants of this and never had any issues keeping the barbs at bay.
Whaddyasay?
J.
Found in Place
Considered moving the settler 2E to make room for one more city in the west and get a more central capital location but decided it`s not worth it: It loses you early access to the forests (unless there are more in the fog, your only source of shields would then be hills, with one food), health bonuses (unhealthiness will kick in at size 5 without river and forest) and you will need to fogbust in the west until you have the city up – which will then overlap heavily and be of little use so close to the map’s border. Founding in place gets you two fish, three hills, three forests and loads of watered grassland; a perfectly good mix.
First Build: Workboat
A no-brainer, really: Fast growth, 2 gold and you can make full use of the mined hills to spawn units later. Working the forest, you will get this in 14 turns, at pop 2.
Research Mining / BW first, then hunting / archery
Yes, you can prioritise BW and still have archers by the time the barbs show up. It’s tight and you won’t have many of them at first, but with the lake and the western border, it’s a manageable risk. On the plus side, you will be able to whip sooner (very advantageous with a happy cap of 5 and all that fish), and know whether there is bronze nearby.
Barracks, Worker, then Archers as needed
Working the fish and one forest, build barracks until you hit size 3, then switch to worker and whip at the first opportunity. This will let you work mined hills soon, complete the barracks and spawn veteran archers in line with the barbarian onslaught.
Next steps are a settler (whipped), another workboat and more archers, as the situation dictates. Research will likely be wheel, AH and/or pottery and mysticism in time for the second city.
Have played three variants of this and never had any issues keeping the barbs at bay.
Whaddyasay?
J.
DaviddesJ
Deity
redemption438 said:
Which national wonder requires 4 cities? Globe Theater, Ironworks, Oxford University, Red Cross, Wall Street, all require 6 cities, I think
I haven't played a game with restricted city count at Monarch. This seems like a good opportunity (if I find the time). Admittedly, Organized is a lousy trait for this style of game.
Maybe I'll try exactly 6 cities, which still makes it fairly painful to build the national wonders (since every city has to get theater, forge, university, hospital, bank). I think winning with 6 cities is pretty easy, though, and I won't have the patience to wait around for the Navy Seals.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Hi all,
GOTM 11 will be my second stab at a GOTM (10 was the first, ouch). Having never played raging barbs, set up a game with same land, raging barbs, and Roosevelt to see what I was in for.
If you have never played raging barbs before, try it before you start GOTM 11 because you have to see it to believe it.
From the first time they appeared, there was about a 50-50 mix of archers and warriors. I often had 6 to 8 of them in or at the edge of the Washington perimeter at one time, converging on the city. Had to defend the city, and a horse pasture 1 NW and a sheep pasture 1 SE, both roaded.
Chariots and archers have equal production time, so I made chariots. The couple of archers I made had bad luck: With my archer defending in forest, with the extra first strike promotion, an unpromoted barb archer killed him (happened 2 out of 2). Do archers get an OFFENSIVE advantage in forest as well? Or was that just bad luck?
Held everything but it diverted me from growth. I felt that I needed to get up to about 7 total units to be able to move a settler safely to a second city location, which took forever (along with making the barracks). Spending the entire BC period making troops as fast as possible just to hold what I had was a killer.
At 150 AD scores are, Khan 233 (3 cities); Me 235 (2 cities); Victoria 311 (5 cities); Toku 323 (6 cities); Ghandi 348 (5 cities); and Hatty 366 (5 cities). I do have ‘henge, but Hatty has Oracle. Ghandi has alphabet, I gave him IW for Poly (uneven deal, but not trading killed me in GOTM 10). He still also has Sailing, Alphabet and Masonry that I do not have. Is this a typical raging barbs start?
Observations: Scouting is tough after the barbs appear, as the high numbers prevent healing after a fight before the next one. My first warrior went scouting and quickly was killed when several attacked him in sequential turns, despite a good defensive position.
AI seemed to have fewer problems with barbs, given their numbers of cities. Likely because they can make troops faster than I can past Noble setting. And it only takes one of them to randomly get fewer barb attacks to get way ahead. Hatty's war chariots (if she has horses) with the extra strength point and the first strike immunity would make it particularly easy for her to conquer the horde.
Don’t know how I would have survived if the horses were not luckily close. Archer vs. archer would have given me more losses and even more time spent making troops.
Solutions?
There is discussion of “fog-busting” tactics – can someone direct me to a thread or write-up on that?
Do the Barbs appear at a time certain (did I see 2800 BC in a post)? If so, can you build second city before barbs and then scramble to defend the two? Or is that a doomed approach?
If you only have archers, then you may need them to attack archers on you improved tiles. What is the best offensive first promotion for an archer, the 10% strength or the extra first strike chance?
What about medic promotions? Is that useful to heal faster between the frequent combats?
Posts seem to indicate that your getting BW determines when the barbs get axes. How does that work? If it is not a regional thing, then won’t barbs get archers when any AI gets BW? And don’t you want BW for the slavery civic?
We newcomers to this setting can use all the advice you can provide.
da_Vinci
GOTM 11 will be my second stab at a GOTM (10 was the first, ouch). Having never played raging barbs, set up a game with same land, raging barbs, and Roosevelt to see what I was in for.
If you have never played raging barbs before, try it before you start GOTM 11 because you have to see it to believe it.
From the first time they appeared, there was about a 50-50 mix of archers and warriors. I often had 6 to 8 of them in or at the edge of the Washington perimeter at one time, converging on the city. Had to defend the city, and a horse pasture 1 NW and a sheep pasture 1 SE, both roaded.
Chariots and archers have equal production time, so I made chariots. The couple of archers I made had bad luck: With my archer defending in forest, with the extra first strike promotion, an unpromoted barb archer killed him (happened 2 out of 2). Do archers get an OFFENSIVE advantage in forest as well? Or was that just bad luck?
Held everything but it diverted me from growth. I felt that I needed to get up to about 7 total units to be able to move a settler safely to a second city location, which took forever (along with making the barracks). Spending the entire BC period making troops as fast as possible just to hold what I had was a killer.
At 150 AD scores are, Khan 233 (3 cities); Me 235 (2 cities); Victoria 311 (5 cities); Toku 323 (6 cities); Ghandi 348 (5 cities); and Hatty 366 (5 cities). I do have ‘henge, but Hatty has Oracle. Ghandi has alphabet, I gave him IW for Poly (uneven deal, but not trading killed me in GOTM 10). He still also has Sailing, Alphabet and Masonry that I do not have. Is this a typical raging barbs start?
Observations: Scouting is tough after the barbs appear, as the high numbers prevent healing after a fight before the next one. My first warrior went scouting and quickly was killed when several attacked him in sequential turns, despite a good defensive position.
AI seemed to have fewer problems with barbs, given their numbers of cities. Likely because they can make troops faster than I can past Noble setting. And it only takes one of them to randomly get fewer barb attacks to get way ahead. Hatty's war chariots (if she has horses) with the extra strength point and the first strike immunity would make it particularly easy for her to conquer the horde.
Don’t know how I would have survived if the horses were not luckily close. Archer vs. archer would have given me more losses and even more time spent making troops.
Solutions?
There is discussion of “fog-busting” tactics – can someone direct me to a thread or write-up on that?
Do the Barbs appear at a time certain (did I see 2800 BC in a post)? If so, can you build second city before barbs and then scramble to defend the two? Or is that a doomed approach?
If you only have archers, then you may need them to attack archers on you improved tiles. What is the best offensive first promotion for an archer, the 10% strength or the extra first strike chance?
What about medic promotions? Is that useful to heal faster between the frequent combats?
Posts seem to indicate that your getting BW determines when the barbs get axes. How does that work? If it is not a regional thing, then won’t barbs get archers when any AI gets BW? And don’t you want BW for the slavery civic?
We newcomers to this setting can use all the advice you can provide.
da_Vinci
DaviddesJ
Deity
Hooha said:
A disadvantage of this is that it takes longer to get any patches that come out.
redemption438
Warlord
DaviddesJ said:Which national wonder requires 4 cities? Globe Theater, Ironworks, Oxford University, Red Cross, Wall Street, all require 6 cities, I think
Yep, my mistake, was looking at the wrong chart.
I'll have to ponder this - an intriguing challenge but I haven't had much practice with a low city count conquest victory. I've only done culture victories with a low number of cities. We'll see how generous the city locations are...
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