News: GOTM 14 Pre-Game Discussion

[toller pretzl]

The last gotm A/A map required only galleys to reach all the land masses. Is that circumstance standard for A/A maps? If not, does anyone have a feel for the likelihood of that being the case on this kind of map?

I think the likelihood on a randomly generated map would be close to zero.

 

[DaviddesJ]

With high water level, it's very unlikely you can reach all major land masses with galleys, even with cultural bridges.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Funny thing about both saves: I founded Hindu by beelining while building a settler.

After quite a few tests, here's my thoughts: if you build a settler first, you won't need worker techs or fishing in the first 30 turns anyway. In my test games, I can usually get CoL from the Oracle by going Fishing --> Mining and up the religion techs to Priest and Writing. I'll have 2-3 cities by then (3 more often than 2). There are fewer huts out there for the AI to pop Poly. All this makes me think I'll probably gamble for Hindu while slow building my first settler.

I prefer to build the Oracle in my second city since the capitol will be my early settler/worker pump. And also because I will only need one GP priest for this game, so might as well concentrate the points.

After getting Writing, I'll pick BW so I can whip or chop for some last minute hammers in the Oracle city

I have had only two test games (out of ~10) in which I was really close to the nearest AI. In all other games, I was isolated. This makes GLib+HE+a couple of scientists; lighbulbing up to Astro, extremely powerful.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I prefer to build the Oracle in my second city since the capitol will be my early settler/worker pump.

What if you need a galley for your second city?

 

[Capt Buttkick]

What if you need a galley for your second city?

That has only happened once in testing, but even then you'll know on the first turn, so can always switch back to Fishing --> Sailing.
On the gotm map, there's room for at least one more city on our starting island, N NW NW of the start.

 

[GoodGame]

So when is the starting save available?

I think I'll send the warrior to one tile south. Probably the settle to one tile south two, I wager.

If no chance to irrigate, and need to conserve forest for production, then probably no need to build workers until Mining/Metal Casting. Fishing/workboats will be top priority, followed by all religions up to Judaism. Then sailing-lighthouse, and early wonders (use that IND)---stonehenge/oracle (especially Stonehenge because of probable lower production on this map). Though if, pop3 arrives well before a workboat, might switch to a worker to mine that gold for faster research (probably work both seafood, and the gold mine @ pop3 to win the religion race). Colossus will probably be especially good on this map, better than the lighthouse.

Given the probable isolation of this map, it will be a great boon to have most of the religions and very early wonders, since the other civs won't be able to spread them quickly. Hopefully their own unhappiness will hamper them, slowing their tech. Definitely don't give out anything to the AI that will help their tech, to make a Domination possible.

The capital will exist to produce wonders. Settlers/workers will come out of a second city hopefully.

Edit: created a hypothetical scenario from the pre-game (attached). Added two 'dilemmas' of possible city locations (iron to the north and incense/fish to south). I figure there are 2-3 city locations in the first island.

In my first run, working the 2x crabs and then finally the gold (w/o mine) with the 3rd pop did net me a beeline for Monotheism and founding all 3 religions, but I completely lost out on stonehenge, oracle(metal-casting and Colossus), Great Lighthouse. Possible mistake--building a worker and settler combo, and maybe founding monotheism to early; Possibly should have chop-rushed to get the Oracle.
Research path: Fishing->Meditation->Polytheism->Mining->Masonry->Monotheism and then to whatever was convenient to build.
Oh and settled one tile west to save the plains. Grassland is just seafood or soon to be plains, in this scenario, except a cottage or too; hammers are more rare than gold.

Definitely don't convert to a religion or civic until you're in unhappiness in this scenario.

EDIT EDIT: Ran thru this some more and definitely it Meditation is a fluke. It's 99% impossible in this scenario. You also have to decide your first wonder: Oracle or Stonehenge or Parthenon; second wonder: Colossus or Great Lighthouse.

My best build/research order was (absolutely no chop-rushing until the forests spread): Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up)

@fish work 2x crabs with 2pop; @2 pop start building a worker--use him to mine the gold; after the worker, build one workboat for one crab; @priesthood build Oracle working only one crab, the mine, and the forests (they should spread); convert to slavery and religion; whip a forge; lighthouse (to counter the sickness from the forge with more food); now.... you could build Colossus right away and be pretty sure to get it, but one more gambit is to go straight to Great Lightouse, and then Colossus (didn't test it).
A Stonehenge/Parthenon gambit at this point is probably impossible.

At that point stop the wonder-addiction and start settling and then galley settling. (from the retire score, you're near last place with not quite 400 points).


EDIT EDIT EDIT: OOPS I played this on Monarch :*(

 

[DaviddesJ]

After quite a few tests, here's my thoughts: if you build a settler first, you won't need worker techs or fishing in the first 30 turns anyway. In my test games, I can usually get CoL from the Oracle by going Fishing --> Mining and up the religion techs to Priest and Writing. I'll have 2-3 cities by then (3 more often than 2). There are fewer huts out there for the AI to pop Poly. All this makes me think I'll probably gamble for Hindu while slow building my first settler.

1. Can you get your 2nd city to be the Hindu holy city? Or is that too much to hope for?

2. Why do you want COL? Why not try to use the Oracle for Metal Casting? Below, you suggest that you have time to research Writing+BW before finishing the Oracle, so you can certainly research BW+Pottery, in less time.

 

[DaviddesJ]

If no chance to irrigate, and need to conserve forest for production, then probably no need to build workers until Mining/Metal Casting. Fishing/workboats will be top priority, followed by all religions up to Judaism.

It seems to me that you're unlikely to get either Buddhism or Hinduism this way, much less both.

 

[AlanH]

So when is the starting save available?

1 January, 2007, right after the server's clock strikes midnight, CST to welcome the New Year. (If ainwood uploads it in time, that is )

 

[Capt Buttkick]

1. Can you get your 2nd city to be the Hindu holy city? Or is that too much to hope for?

2. Why do you want COL? Why not try to use the Oracle for Metal Casting? Below, you suggest that you have time to research Writing+BW before finishing the Oracle, so you can certainly research BW+Pottery, in less time.

1. Well, I have never been able to found Hindu in my second city on emperor. It usually takes 25 turns to get the first settler out (unless your capitol is on a plain hill or a special (4 f+h) resource is available). I believe Myst + Hindu is around 21 turns. I tested delaying Poly in a test game, but the AI got it 2 turns before the settler popped.
EDIT: of course, all that makes building Oracle in the capitol, getting the shrine there and then turning city #2 or #3 into the GP pump more of an option

2. Ah yes, if I get Hindu, I will definitely sling to MC instead of CoL. :santa with a pimp's beard: I've always thought the benefits of early religion would outweigh the offset of grabbing a tech that is not on the path to Astro, but I could be wrong there. EDIT: I probably am, come to think of it. Time to go test some more, I guess
Only problem is, I'll need CoL for CS sooner or later...

 

[Capt Buttkick]

It seems to me that you're unlikely to get either Buddhism or Hinduism this way, much less both.

Buddha is a even if you go for it off the bat. The AI has it invariably in 3680 or 3640 BC.
Fishing --> Myst --> Hindu --> Masonry --> Mono landed me Juda in one game, but I only went for Juda cause Hindu was extrordinarily slow in that particular game.
Suffice to say, I didn't get Hindu in that game, so I don't think it's possible to get Hindu if you go for Fishing first.

 

[GoodGame]

It seems to me that you're unlikely to get either Buddhism or Hinduism this way, much less both.

I've gamed it and now I agree. Polytheism is possible if you surrender Meditation without a fight.

 

[DaviddesJ]

1. Well, I have never been able to found Hindu in my second city on emperor. It usually takes 25 turns to get the first settler out (unless your capitol is on a plain hill or a special (4 f+h) resource is available). I believe Myst + Hindu is around 21 turns.

You could settle on the gold hill.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

You could settle on the gold hill.

Oh, I'm a weak soul. You almost tempted me

 

[DaviddesJ]

Settling on the gold hill would be reasonable, if there's a fish offshore. But, unfortunately, you can't know before moving, so it seems an unreasonable choice.

Besides, 1 turn to move, 20 turns to build settler, 3 turns to move it to the 2nd city site, might still be too long.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Yes, that's 24 turns and Poly was founded on turn 22 or 23 in the test. Maybe it would work in some games when the AI is slow, but I feel it's enough of a gamble as it is

 

[Markus5]

This game might be best played with the ideas recently presented. I tried some things and was quite pleased. GoodGames order: Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up). This was really nice. I got Hindu and Judism. I built (approximately) warrior->workboat->workboat->worker->(something?)->Stonehenge->Oracle. Don't remember the exact items. Popping into WorldBuilder showed that there was plenty of room for expansion.

In my test maps, there are usually several civs that get sizable land masses. France is always stuck on a smallish bit of land. A smashing-good start might be nice for a change.

 

[toller pretzl]

This game might be best played with the ideas recently presented. I tried some things and was quite pleased. GoodGames order: Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up). This was really nice. I got Hindu and Judism. I built (approximately) warrior->workboat->workboat->worker->(something?)->Stonehenge->Oracle.

Shouldn´t there be bronze-working in your tech-order, or how will you get to the wonders first without chops ?

In my test maps, there are usually several civs that get sizable land masses. France is always stuck on a smallish bit of land. A smashing-good start might be nice for a change.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but doesn't the frosting on the northern trees indicate that we are way in the north on a tropical map ? And if that is true, we are probably alone on a tiny piece of land that soon fades into ice.

 

[LuckyAC]

In 5 tests for these settings, here's when the AI reached things:
------------ Earliest Median
Religions:
Buddhism: 3680 3680
Hinduism: 3600 3120
Judaism 2640 2360
Confucianism: 1000 900
Christianity: 900 600
Taoism: 400 375BC

Wonders:
Stonehenge 1960 1520
The Oracle 1240 1040
Great Light. 550 425
Pyramids 1400! 150BC
Parthenon 800 150
TH Gardens 150AD 450AD
Great Library 560AD 720AD
They only built the Colossus before The Great Library (when I stopped) in 2/5 games, didn't record the dates though.

The earlier it's possible to found Buddhism on that map is 3320, so that's impossible. You can found Hinduism in 3160(actually 3200 if you use the gold and don't grow), so that's definitely possible, since that's before their median.

You can certainly guarantee Stonehenge, since it's possible to get as early as 2720. Others aren't quite as easy to calculate, but all should be possible (we are industrious, after all).

 

[LuckyAC]

This game might be best played with the ideas recently presented. I tried some things and was quite pleased. GoodGames order: Fish->Mysticism->Polytheism->Mining->Monotheism->Priesthood-->research to Metal Casting slingshot->Sailing->Meditation (so you can lightbulb Theology to found Christianity, once your first Prophet shows up). This was really nice. I got Hindu and Judism. I built (approximately) warrior->workboat->workboat->worker->(something?)->Stonehenge->Oracle. .

That will found Hinduism in 3000 and Judaism in 2200, which would have only gotten Hinduism 1/5 times and Judaism 2/5 times in my games (although there was intersection, so in one game it would have gotten both). You get Stonehenge in a fairly safe 1960 though.