Next step building adjustments

[Stalker0]

Well that's a given, along with the walls line and constabulary line. gonna be a lot of disorder-buildings.

Not a given I'm hopeful with some of the disorder updates walls will be good enough as is. They were in the early version of the new happiness sytem...they solidly helped fight disorder.

I am hoping with the new version they can do so again without a straight up "-1 disorder".

 

[Funak]

I still find it weird that the windmill is weaker than the workshop, the windmill is way later in tech and should for that reason be more powerful. Just the same way as the MA should be more powerful than the baracks

 

[Funak]

Not a given I'm hopeful with some of the disorder updates walls will be good enough as is. They were in the early version of the new happiness sytem...they solidly helped fight disorder.

I am hoping with the new version they can do so again without a straight up "-1 disorder".

You don't think people feel safer if they have a wall or a baracks in the city?

Btw this is probably close to being offtopic so lets drop it

 

[mitsho]

Walls and co help against unhappiness through their bonus to city strength, and if I'd buff them, I'd buff the castle way more than the walls

But yes, barracks and co being good against happiness is a good way to buff them to make them situationally powerful.

EDIT: Walls give happiness through safety, barracks however have all these nice little men inside called riot police. They help happiness level nonetheless

 

[Funak]

Walls and co help against unhappiness through their bonus to city strength, and if I'd buff them, I'd buff the castle way more than the walls

But yes, barracks and co being good against happiness is a good way to buff them to make them situationally powerful.

EDIT: Walls give happiness through safety, barracks however have all these nice little men inside called riot police. They help happiness level nonetheless

Disorder is going to keep scaling with population as mentioned by gazebo so you're going to need a lot of buildings to combat it.

 

[Stalker0]

My thoughts on where we are at with V1.1

Food/Growth Buildings
Granary - No change
Watermill - Maintenance reduced from 2 to 1.
Aqueduct - +1 food to Lakes, Oasis
Garden - +1 food to Citrus, Wine. No terrain prereq.
Hospital - -1 maintenance.
Medical Lab - No change.

--This to me is looking pretty good. I don't think aqueducts needed help, but I don't think this OPs them either. For a cost adjustment standpoint, I could see the Watermill getting a slight hammer discount, and probably the hospital as well (the hospital takes a LOT of hammers to build).

Faith Buildings
Shrine - No change
Temple - +1 faith on incense and wine, -1 maintenance. Shrine no longer a prereq

--Shrine is good, Temple is looking alright...and I can take or leave the shrine prereq. I think the Temple needs a slight hammer discount, but the maintenance reduction was a big deal.

Culture Buildings
Amphitheater - +1 culture to Dye (no silk, cotton, or furs)
Opera House - +3 culture, +1 culture with Silk. Amphitheater no longer a prereq
Museum - Opera House no longer a prereq
Broadcast Tower - Museum no longer a prereq

--Amphitheater still looks weak to me, its terribly boring. Opera House is getting there, Museum still needs work.

One idea: What if the buildings generated GP points? Amphitheater - Generate 1 Great Writer point.

Compared to the 6 points you can get from the guild its not going to change the whole game but it spices it up somewhat.

XP Buildings
Barracks - No change
Armory - No change
Military Academy - No change

--I'll hold on these until I see the results of the poll.

Happy Buildings
Colosseum - +1 happy, -1 disorder
Zoo - +1 happy, - 1 illiteracy
Stadium - +1 happy, -1 poverty (maybe misremembering this one)
Circus - +1 maintenance.

--Looking pretty good. Stadium I think could use a hammer discount, it is pretty expensive to build.

Stables, Forges, and Stone oh my!
Stables - Add +1 production. Now all mounted units gain +15% production.
Forge - +1 production to Iron, Aluminum, Coal, Uranium, Oil.
Stoneworks - No longer has a terrain prereq.

--Stable and Stoneworks look good.
For the Forge, I feel like we are trying to justify its existence. From general feedback, most of us don't build it. So in reality, there is no "Forge" in vanilla...its just a spot in the build queue. If vanilla had never put it in the game...I don't think we would clamoring now to put it in.

Further...its not like I run out of buildings to build. My cities can build stuff nonstop for the entire game.

So...do we need to keep it? Should we just toss it?

Sea Buildings
Lighthouse - No change
Harbor - No change
Seaport - +2 prod, 25% bonus to naval production. No sea tile bonus. Harbor no longer a prereq.

--As Mystikx pointed out, I made a mistake here. Seaport should have +1 gold to sea tiles as well.

Overall these buildings look good, I would build every single one of them.

Money Buildings
Market -+1 gold spices and sugar
Mint - +2 gold, +1 gold to copper, silver, gems, gold
Bank - No change
Stock Exchange - No change
Caravansary - +1 gold, +1 gold to truffles, cotton, fur

--The market change I am okay with, I'm fine either way. The mint is starting to look respectable, its probably worth getting now.

The Caravansary is now looking more attractive. I still don't give a damn about its trade route bonus...but with this extra added in I would likely build it.

Science Buildings
Library - 1 scientist slot (was 0) , no increase in maintenance
University - 1 scientist slot (instead of 2), +1 science to jungles (was 2), +1 maintenance.
Public School - +1 maintenance
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), +1 maintenance.
Observatory - Some removal of mountain prereq and some other adjustment (needs to be firmed up).

--I am ambivalent on the maintenance updates. I don't think they are needed, but again its not a strong issue for me. Overall these are fine...the science slot on the library is the biggest on my watch list...that can be a surprisingly powerful change.

Hammer Buildings
Workshop - No change
Windmill - No change
Factory - No change
Hydro Plant - Requires watermill (no aluminum). -2 maintenance.
Nuclear Plant - No change
Solar Plant - No change
Recycling Center - No change
Spaceship Factory - No change

--These are generally fine to me, though I like the hydro change. This is an area where the only change I could see would be some hammer reductions in cost, but their benefits are all attractive.

Security Buildings
Constabulary - -1 discontent, poverty. 25% spy reduction
Police Station - -1 discontent, 25% spy reduction

--The constable is actually a very strong building right now, anything that lowers unhappy by 2 is. The police station is okay. Both are workable now.

Tourism Buildings
Hotel - No change
Airport - No change

--Both of these buildings are actually very strong if you need tourism, and the airport offers other good advantages. I think they are good to go.

Military Buildings
Courthouse - 140Production cost, +10Production cost per Citizen population. No maintanence cost, higher rush buy cost.
Walls - 100 hitpoints (was 50)
Castle - 150 hitpoints (was 25)
Arsenal - 200 hitpoints (was 25)
Military Base - 250 hitpoints (was 25), -25% damage from aircraft, and -50% damage from nukes.
Bomb Shelter: Removed from game.

--I like the bomb shelter removal, it was a building I never saw use...but I would like other opinions on that one.

The wall/castle etc changes just fall in line with our new city model (less strength more hp). We will see if the happy system gives them enough incentive to buy or if we need more.

 

[Stalker0]

Disorder is going to keep scaling with population as mentioned by gazebo so you're going to need a lot of buildings to combat it.

I am hoping we can adjust the scaling so that we can fight it more with yield boosters...instead of direct "drop disorder by X" bonuses.

At one point that is how it worked. I could fight disorder with walls and garrisons...and then if things got bad the occasional constable to nail it down. I like that better than a barrage of -X disorder buildings to make a dent.

 

[Gazebo]

That's the way it'll work. The yield will scale with pop, but the average is derived from building defense and garrisons only. No more pop based or tech based yield increases.
H
G

 

[Funak]

That's the way it'll work. The yield will scale with pop, but the average is derived from building defense and garrisons only. No more pop based or tech based yield increases.
H
G

a 40 pop city is still never going to have even close to the str/pop that a 10pop city does no what. This is what makes the whole thing bad imo

 

[mystikx21]

We can bump the upkeep on aqueducts to 2. They sort of deserve a hit that way anyway. The lakes/oasis effect is more for flavor (and to improve those tiles).

Strength on walls/castles etc wasn't adjusted. Just the HP. They become more valuable in defence and for happiness purposes.

I believe the caravansary also gets a slight bump to land trade routes over default.

My vote on the forge is to toss it and move the +1 production (or gold/science) on strategic resources elsewhere (spread it out to era appropriate buildings).

Museum is fine, the change to it would be from changes to Great Works mostly.

Amphitheater, I don't think we should be giving out GP points for free outside of wonders or specialists.

Temple wouldn't get the +1 to wine. (stays on the garden). The upkeep reduction is the big one there. Other changes would come from faith generation possibilities/beliefs impacting temples.

The CEP cost adjustment set has the hospital, hydro plant, windmill ,and stadium (and a few others) as significantly cheaper.

 

[Stalker0]

We can bump the upkeep on aqueducts to 2. They sort of deserve a hit that way anyway. The lakes/oasis effect is more for flavor (and to improve those tiles).

--They are decently expense on hammers though, I don't think they need a maintenance bump.

Strength on walls/castles etc wasn't adjusted. Just the HP. They become more valuable in defence and for happiness purposes.

--Looks good for now until we see how the new HP system does.

My vote on the forge is to toss it and move the +1 production (or gold/science) on strategic resources elsewhere (spread it out to era appropriate buildings).

--Or...we could just toss the building and the bonus Again I don't see a strong need to bump strategic resources in yield value.

Its important to stress that in vanilla, there really is only one strategic resource that gets a bump...horses with the stable. Iron doesn't because we don't build forges. And even vanilla we already said a lot of people don't even build stables. The default game doesn't provide extra hammers to strategic resources...and I don't see a need to change that. Heck if we wanted to make stables just provide bonus to cows and sheep I would understand that.

Museum is fine, the change to it would be from changes to Great Works mostly.

--I agree that a Great Work adjustment should be seen before we do much here.

Amphitheater, I don't think we should be giving out GP points for free outside of wonders or specialists.

--Its really not that much, but I'm good either way.

Temple wouldn't get the +1 to wine. (stays on the garden). The upkeep reduction is the big one there. Other changes would come from faith generation possibilities/beliefs impacting temples.

--Might be good enough.

The CEP cost adjustment set has the hospital, hydro plant, windmill ,and stadium (and a few others) as significantly cheaper.

--I agree with those.

 

[skodkim]

Generally very satisfied with the changes but I agree that Amphitheatres look boring - really boring actually - why not buff them to +2 culture?

What about flavors - will they have to be written manually or are we aiming for some kind of Automatic assignment of flavors like CEP's system?

\Skodkim

 

[Gazebo]

a 40 pop city is still never going to have even close to the str/pop that a 10pop city does no what. This is what makes the whole thing bad imo

That's not the way the scaling works, as both the yield and the average scale with population.

G

 

[mystikx21]

I agree that Amphitheatres look boring - really boring actually - why not buff them to +2 culture?

That may be fine to buff them. We will need to add a couple of sources of tourism (hence the requested change in how hotels generate from natural wonders, as one method, probably a change to great works or tourism to them from freedom or aesthetics).

 

[mitsho]

Quoted from above, the comments behind the -- are mine own, not stalker's original ones. I think the list is well thought through and comprehensive

Spoiler :

My thoughts on where we are at with V1.1

Food/Growth Buildings
Granary - No change
Watermill - Maintenance reduced from 2 to 1.
Aqueduct - +1 food to Lakes, Oasis
Garden - +1 food to Citrus, Wine. No terrain prereq.
Hospital - -1 maintenance. Reduce cost slightly
Medical Lab - No change.

--I still prefer 2 hammer, 1 food watermill's, production is more scarce than food after all around rivers.

Faith Buildings
Shrine - No change
Temple - +1 faith on incense and wine, -1 maintenance. Shrine no longer a prereq

--Fine!

Culture Buildings
Amphitheater - +1 culture to Dye (no silk, cotton, or furs) +1 culture
Opera House - +3 culture, +1 culture with Silk. Amphitheater no longer a prereq
Museum - Opera House no longer a prereq
Broadcast Tower - Museum no longer a prereq

--Don't we add too much culture? I would like a per population effect, but those seem too strong, maybe a +5% culture instead? Again, if we buff Great Works with Aesthetics, these may be fine alone

But no GP points on culture buildings please.

XP Buildings
Barracks - No change
Armory - No change garisoned unit pays no upkeep
Military Academy - No change -1 disorder

--The result of the poll: Barracks fine, Armory for one city, MA not good enough. Thus some changes are needed, my proposal above

Happy Buildings
Colosseum - +1 happy, -1 disorder
Zoo - +1 happy, - 1 illiteracy
Stadium - +1 happy, -1 poverty (maybe misremembering this one), reduce building cost slightly
Circus - +1 maintenance.

--fine

Stables, Forges, and Stone oh my!
Stables - Add +1 production. Now all mounted units gain +15% production.
Forge - +1 production to Iron, Aluminum, Coal, Uranium, Oil. lose the building?
Stoneworks - No longer has a terrain prereq.

--We can lose the forge, Iron would go to armory, coal to factory (?), oil to exchange, uranium to nuclear plant, aluminium to recycling center.

Sea Buildings
Lighthouse - No change
Harbor - No change
Seaport - +2 prod, 25% bonus to naval production. +1 gold on seatiles?. Harbor no longer a prereq.

--fine

Money Buildings
Market -+1 gold spices and sugar
Mint - +2 gold, +1 gold to copper, silver, gems, gold
Bank - No change
Stock Exchange - No change
Caravansary - +1 gold, +1 gold to truffles, cotton, fur

--Still meh about the caravanseray, maybe move gems from the mint to here (the mint is good enough already)

Science Buildings
Library - 1 scientist slot (was 0) , no increase in maintenance
University - 1 scientist slot (instead of 2), +1 science to jungles (was 2), +1 maintenance.
Public School - +1 maintenance
Research Lab - +1 science to jungles (was 0), +1 maintenance.
Observatory - mountain needs to be within 2 tiles instead of 1.

--seems fine.

Hammer Buildings
Workshop - No change
Windmill - No change
Factory - No change
Hydro Plant - Requires watermill (no aluminum). -2 maintenance.
Nuclear Plant - No change
Solar Plant - No change
Recycling Center - No change
Spaceship Factory - No change

--seems fine

Security Buildings
Constabulary - -1 discontent, poverty. 25% spy reduction
Police Station - -1 discontent, 25% spy reduction

--Very strong with the happiness, but why not.

Tourism Buildings
Hotel - No change
Airport - No change

--fine

Military Buildings
Courthouse - 140Production cost, +10Production cost per Citizen population. No maintanence cost, higher rush buy cost.
Walls - 100 hitpoints (was 50)
Castle - 150 hitpoints (was 25)
Arsenal - 200 hitpoints (was 25)
Military Base - 250 hitpoints (was 25), -25% damage from aircraft, and -50% damage from nukes.
Bomb Shelter: Removed from game.

--fine

I would still like to see cemeteries, prisons etc. Maybe they just need to be name changes (constabulary = police station after all), but these are minor issues. In general, I think we are good to go on these changes.

 

[mystikx21]

From the result on the military buildings, it sounds like MAs could also use the XP boosted as another incentive. I still don't see what would be wrong with 10/20/30 instead of 15/15/30 or 15/15/15, but okay.

 

[Funak]

Some personal thoughts:
I think the caravanasary from CEP is totally fine (1 gold on all luxuries part, not going to argue about traderoute-gold)

I think the CEPsystem of making coast/sea -tiles workable was great, getting a startinglocation by the coast but without any searesources practically means half your tiles will be unworkable.. Sure you will still be able to use better seabased traderoutes, but that isn't the only reason why coastal cities have been prosperous.

Also I still think the windmill needs a fix, atleast removing the no-hill requirement on it but I'd like to see a full fix.

 

[skodkim]

I agree that this looks good enough to implement - tweaking is usually easier when you've tried the effect in games.

\Skodkim

 

[guto8797]

Personally, the thing that pisses me off the most in CIV 5 is the disparity between tech and buildings. Are you tellin me it takes less time to discover writing than to build a granary? If you like building wonders, you usually end with your capital Behind regular buildings... IMO you shoud be able to build 2-3 building before researching a new tech, and I play in marathon! Also this clashes with worker speed. 9 turns for a road is far too much, can we tweak it? I mean, building a road between two relativelly close cities takes for eveeeerrrrr...

 

[mitsho]

This is a problem of game versus simulation. If you have "realistic" build times, you run out of things to build, and then you build units and fill the map. Civ does need to have a certain backlog of buildings to function. It's also more of a strategic game if you have to chose your buildings for a city, and not just the build order and then copy this to all other cities (I know we already do that basically...)

It's just a little bit of abstraction.

On the experience on military buildings, isn't that basically haggling over details. 10/20/30 is okay for me as well. But in the end, I don't really care

And yes, lose the no-hill requirement. I don't think it's such a big balancing concern.